Talk:Russian Ground Forces

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Article Milestones Date Process Result October 14, 2006 WikiProject peer review Reviewed October 28, 2006 WikiProject A-class review Approved December 7, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Contents 1 Could someone put down Soviet Military Units table? 2 Equipment 3 Just made a huge edition to the article 4 Perceptions 5 Kirill's Peer Review 5.1 Kirill Lokshin 6 NPOV? 7 Table 8 Anti-Russian bias

[edit] Could someone put down Soviet Military Units table?

Like there are x many in a brigade and this many in a division. AND what are the Soviet names for them?

-G Look at Division (military)#Soviet Divisions

[edit] Equipment

Who said that Russia was left with older equipment? Russian forces on the contrary had the most modern equipment, and it is being modernized at a very fast rate, just look at RIA Novosti, and how many things have been modernized allready. I would suggest that in order for Wikipedia to be credible, it has to put up up-to-date information. Also, let us use russian sources and not western ones, since western sources are often very biased.

This page on wiki is clearly biased and does not take in to account ANY modern numbers, only the ones from 2000 or 2001, please get some dates from 2006, and numbers from today, not 5 years ago. For now, this page is simply outdated. Hope it will be improved.

I have quoted extensively from the IISS Military Balance 2005-06. Adding more info is no problem if you cite your sources. Please do not also remove valid statements; rearmament at a scale of a batteries of missiles at a time will make requipping the whole of a 20 division army a slow process. Buckshot06 17:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just made a huge edition to the article

Added some notes on the forces in Kaliningrad and on the Kamchatka peninsula. Also made some notes on the best Russian-language references and an English-language article which covers some of this. Incidentially the International Institute for Strategic Studies' 'The Military Balance 2006' still lists 1200 T-55 in service and even some T-34. The Russians store equipment for decades and decades sometimes. Cheers Buckshot, 28 Jul 06.

I just added all the stuff you now see in the "Current Inventory". I have been working on it for the past week, and I strove to make it as accurate as possible. All service numbers are active service and taken from warfare.ru .

I know it looks really messy but I tried to fit as much information on one line, as I felt more than one would break the flow. I'm sure you can tell that this is my first time trying something like this. I don't think it looks too bad but I have a feeling everyone else will, so I am open to suggestions on how to improve it without removing any of the content. Hopefully it's not so bad that you guys don't even think it's worthy of being used, as I put a considerable amount of time and effort into it.

I look forward to reading what you guys think. :) --Skyler Streng 02:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Its not messy at all, its really nice and well done. Mathieu121 12:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much :D --Skyler Streng 18:59, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Who got rid of the T-55? IT IS STILL IN SERVICE!!!

Yeah some people have been making changes already it seems, the T-55 was removed and significant alterations to service numbers of the MBTs have been made. I wish the people doing this would say either in the talk page or edit summary what their source is to back up their edit, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. And the T-55 removal isn't too big of a deal as it is speculated that as of now they may all be in storage.

So anyways, if you're going to be making alterations to the Current Inventory section that I made (and Mathieu121 was so kind to start :D) with service numbers that differ from those given at warfare.ru, please provide a source of some kind, otherwise nobody knows if these numbers are accurate in any way or just made up. --Skyler Streng 15:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes because I have seen (and Im sure you have) people changing things to there thinking of mind (sorry bad english). But the T-55 are in storage (mostly in the eastern army were China is) and therefore should be re-added for if the Chinese invaded or if Russia invades, then they are gona be part of that defense force first and added to the invasion in China, depending what would happen. Mathieu121 19:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: And the BMD-4 is NOT I repeat NOT part of the Russian asernal as of yet. Mathieu121 19:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the the Russian military has just recieved a first batch of BMD-4s about a week ago according to some articles I read, one of them I found for proof for you doesn't have as much information, but still backs up my claim: http://en.rian.ru/russia/20060616/49637256.html . While it may not be in full active service yet, I felt it should be mentioned in the article as technically it is now in Russia's arsenal. :) --Skyler Streng 20:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Perceptions

Neutralaccounting introduced this section: "The Russian Ground Forces are regarded internationally by governments as a sovereign right of Russia to possess. The leaders of NATO and Europe have historically planned their military defense around a conflict with them.

In the West one of the views is that they are tough on chaos warriors that bring order to disorder. Another similiar focus is the interest in the West in their hardware and organization from a technical perspective. Another viewpoint is that they are a partially backward organization that has no significant projection of force beyond nearby countries such as Afghanistan and Chechnya.

A more human centered perspective that is notable both within Russia by some civilians and without it's own country is about its occasional but flagrant abuse both against it's own [[1]] and civilians"

...which I think is a little unfair. No other armed forces entry gets even mentioned as whether the country has a right to possess them. Personally on the rest I'd say that the things are put rather crudely... the Soviet Union posed an undoubted threat to Western Europe, it's not particularly backward, but ill-funded, with low morale, appalling dedoskchina, beyond whatever merit it originally had, destroys cohesion, and it han't brought much order anywhere. I do not believe the inhabitants of Chechniya would agree the Ground Force have brought them order. I think everybody should discuss these sentiments a bit before putting such controversial material, likely to spark an edit war, on the main article. We can fix up a section that includes most of these pretty good points together, which will add value to previously uncovered areas of the Ground Forces, but we need to be careful with our tone or we'll be POVing. Comments and thoughts welcome. Buckshot06 05:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kirill's Peer Review

Reproduced from project page:

[edit] Kirill Lokshin

Hmm, some general suggestions:

• The lead should be a summary of the remainder of the article, not a separate section in its own right.
• The organization structure (not "order of battle", as there's no conflict being discussed) should be presented as prose, if possible, or, failing that, as a table. Wikification of just about everything would also be in order; almost all of these units are deserving of articles.
• The equipment section should be trimmed to a few paragraphs of prose. The current list is unacceptably long; this isn't list of equipment of the Russian Ground Forces, after all. As a general rule, a list-heavy article will never pass FAC (and is hence likely to fail an A-Class review as well).
• I would clean up the footnotes to avoid the Latin; even the CMoS deprecates "op. cit." now. (As a side note, "Name, ibid." would only make sense if multiple authors had been cited in the previous note, and only one was applicable; in the case where the previous note references only a single source, the form is a plain "Ibid.").
• Some major topics that should get discussed:
  • Budgets and expenditures.
  • Command structure, names of major commanders, etc.
  • Ranks, decorations, etc.
  • Controversies, corruption, etc. (tantalizingly referred to—"These numbers should be treated with caution, however, due to the difficulty for even the General Staff to make accurate assessments."—but never fully discussed).
• Direct citations for as many points as possible would be a good idea.
• Finally, once the article has taken shape, extensive copyediting will probably be appropriate.

(One minor point: is "Russian Ground Forces" the official translation? I would have thought that "Russian Land Forces" would be closer to the original.) Kirill Lokshin 04:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

Whats with the idea that "there is little chance of it's effectiveness"? When in fact the budget has been increasingh by 25% every year, and more and more money is being put in. I think that this article needs to remove it's opinions and rather put in simply facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:207.6.75.84

As you will have seen with the 30odd citations down the bottom, I'm trying to bring this article toward a A-class review standard incorporating lots of quotations from people who know. User:Buckshot06

For example, on your specific point:

'Since 1999 the defense budget has grown more than three times – rising from 109 billion rubles to 346 billion (in 2003). However, no positive changes have come about: the level of combat readiness and discipline is just as low as it was few years ago. All of this means that the Russian armed forces are not ready to defend the country and that, at the same time, they are also dangerous for Russia. Top military personnel demonstrate neither the will nor the ability to effect fundamental changes.' Golts, MILITARY REFORM AND GLOBAL WAR AGAINST TERRORISM, 2004

"The Russian president now faces two challenges in defense and security. The first is that the Russian armed forces do not meet any modern requirements. Top military officials try to reduce the problem down to the need to rearm the armed forces with new precision weapons and other equipment. Russian Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov insisted in 2001 that the first priority in military reform is rearmament, which had to begin with modernization of the Space Forces. Many independent experts doubt seriously that the Russian military-industrial complex is capable of producing modern weapons. But even if a miracle was to happen and the Russian army received this equipment, it would not be able to use it effectively. The war in Chechnya has shown how inefficient is this military concept in a period of local conflicts.

The second challenge is that the unreformed armed forces have become Russia’s most urgent social problem. Decay is the best word to describe the situation. Young men look on army service as state slavery and try to avoid it. Military officials repeatedly complain that they are able to draft less then 11 per cent of those who are supposed to be conscripts. As a result, most recruits meet neither health nor intelligence standards. At the same time, the military fails to man units with the planned number of soldiers. Desertion is now epidemic. Soldiers are deserting in platoons and companies. According to official statements, there are now more then 2,265 deserters (unofficially, the military believes that the number is several times higher). These young people who have left their units with weapons have quickly became criminals. In 2001, deserters killed a general who tried to stop them. Some observers have written about the possibility of a new ‘“Ironclad” Potemkin’ revolt. Soldier morale is extremely low. Military commanders are powerless to stop dedovschina (daily severe hazing of first-year soldiers by those in the second year)." --Alexander Golts, 'Military Reform in Russia and the Global War Against Terrorism, Vo 17 p.29-41, 2004

So when I make these assessments like revival of effectiveness is unlikely, it is Russian sources like this defence journalist Golts that I draw my info from. Buckshot06 04:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table

How about formatting the formation dispositions as a definition list? —Michael Z. 2006-10-25 16:06 Z

Ground and Coastal Defence Forces of the Baltic Fleet, HQ Kaliningrad

 ? Motor Rifle Brigade, Kaliningrad (designation uncertain - former 1st MRD)

18th Motor Rifle Division, Gusev (cadre)

Leningrad Military District, HQ Saint Petersburg

138th Motor Rifle Brigade, Kamenka

200th Motor Rifle Brigade, Pechenga

Moscow Military District, HQ Moscow (also serves as HQ Western Front)

2nd Guards Motor Rifle Division, Alabino

20th Army, HQ Voronezh

4th Guards Tank Division, Naro-Fominsk

10th Guards Tank Division, Boguchar

22nd Army, HQ Nizhny Novogorod

3rd Motor Rifle Division, Novyy

Operational Group of Russian Forces in Moldova, HQ Tiraspol

8th Motor Rifle Brigade, Tiraspol (former 59th MRD)

North Caucasus Military District, HQ Rostov-na-Donu

131st Motor Rifle Brigade, Maykop

58th Army, HQ Vladikavkaz

One motor rifle division, two motor rifle brigades, one motor rifle regiment

Trans-Caucasus Group of Forces, HQ Tbilisi

Russian bases in Georgia and Armenia

Volga-Ural Military District, HQ Yekaterinburg

34th Motor Rifle Division, Yekaterinburg

15th Motor Rifle Brigade

2nd Army, HQ Samara (former Volga MD HQ)

27th Motor Rifle Division, Totskoye

201st Motor Rifle Division, Dushanbe, Tajikistan

Siberian Military District, HQ Novosibirsk

Three army HQs, one tank division, two motor rifle divisions, one machine-gun/artillery division

Far Eastern Military District, HQ Khabarovsk

Two army HQs, one corps HQ, four motor rifle divisions, four machine-gun/artillery divisions

[edit] Anti-Russian bias

Why is this article so anti-russian? Opnly negative quotes by reporters and experts are made, none positive opnes. After all, wiki remains, in general pro-western source and not very credible :(.

Because you haven't added your corrections with appropriate citations to support them. This is the 'encyclopedia anyone can edit'. --Nick Dowling 07:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, do not trust and do not read enWiki at all. This is a best remedy once and for all. As a Russian Army reserve soldier, I can say trivial things on my own Army experience:

Some comments from the main contributor follow. Buckshot06 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• Dedovtschina exists and will exist, the struggle against it can not be successful in principle. But near every 'zapah' after one and half year becomes 'ded' and uses this position for his own enjoyment.

In the historical Russian conscript army, this is the case and this is what is said in the article. In a professional army such intense hazing does not occur; cf US, British Armies.Buckshot06 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• Russian Army is not so unprepared and non-ready for combat. After all as in 2006, the bulk of Army forces was withdrawn from Caucasus and order was keeping by militia and Kadyrov's local forces. After three years of constant street dogfighting US Army cannot simply leave Iraq - their puppet local goverment will be instantly wiped out. While general control over Northern Caucasus was reached, US and Allies were able to control only islands in entire Iraq.
• New equipment is really supplied to Russian Army but in small quantity. I cannot speak much about it.

We've added some notes; plase give more info with sources! Also see Taman Division article; more there. Buckshot06 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• In Army, more exact in artillery, I found the practical application of my mathematical university education. This was at least expected thing there! Moreover, I met some other conscripted guys with same talents!

Thought the Artillery often got most intelligent soldiers. Buckshot06 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• The officer staff in my battery was responsible and ready to aid to rookies. This is the second least expectable thing. They really helped me to adapt to hard army life.
• Crime rate is really high. The cellular phone was stolen from one of mine comrades, but it was returned after **some discussion** with suspected person. Our brigade commander was in constant fight with crime, from half of year eleven persons were sent to prison for different crimes.

I hope the crime problem is reqsonably well reflected in the article; please change if you can cite sources. Buckshot06 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

• By my opinion, many problems can be solved if conscription age census will be set for 23 years. Now, the matured guys in age of 18 tortured their mates which are psychologically children yet at the same age! This is a first bad thing. In earlier times 18-aged Russian was muzhik, not child as now. The situation had changed and this should be corrected. The second worst thing - drive out Caucasians and Asiats (descendants of Tajiks, Turkomans settled in Russia) from Army! They are real menace for Russian, Tatar and Bashkir boys.
• In general, my unit is able to perform any combat task despite these circumstances. Our battery was really comradeship from rookies such me to experienced warriors who fought in Afghan and Caucasus.

So think twice and DO NOT READ THIS YELLOW GARBAGE from defectors such as Rezun (Suvorov). If there will be his execution, I probably will be a volunteer to hangman role.

This article was principally edited by a New Zealander with the most critical things coming straight from Aleksandr Golts. Rezun is interesting but very out of date. Are you telling me Golts is wrong? Buckshot06 17:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I cannot say is Golts right or wrong, my everyday life in Russia has a general rule: do not trust journalist at all - all of them were bought by different political factions and there are no independent and carefully weighted view - only a garbage words against rival and adversaries. May be in Western traditions to trust the press, but, believe me, not in Russian case. Twisted and wormtongue words for propaganda purposes, nothing more. I believe only to my eyes and closest friends, not to these goddamned mercenaries of Russian oligarchs and officials. Former are trying to make the Army drown in feces, the latter praises it as invincible and powerful, damned lie. The Russian army is a ghost of Soviet might but it lives, it wants to survive and in my battery only the commander colonel was aged and experienced veteran. All other officers are quite young people, two of them are only finished the Military School and want to serve further. So the future is not so dark.

And now let's compare 1995 and 2005 in my brigade:

• 1995 - funding completely ceased, practically no military exercises and manouvers, dedovtschina level is highest, morale is low due to perspective to be send on Caucasus without cartridge and training only to be killed.
• 2005 - funding is low, but practices with howitzers and small arms are everyday matter (when I was going to sleep at barracks at 22:00 the howitzers shots from nearby firing range were constant - lads were training in night fire), dedovtschina level is moderate-to-high (of course, this cannot be rooted out, but our commander finds the way to reduce it - e.g. he allows on Sundays conscripts to meet their parents and girls but if they had successes in military training and army wanted behaviour. The most succeeded persons can even get a leave for weekend and special hostel outside the barracks and quarters is supplied. Also commanders allows conscripts mothers inspect the barracks), morale is normal. Some people even wish to sign a contract with Army. But the best way to get further in my unit is to became of Sergeant-Instructor. All of these boys were literated and ready to help with complicated equipment. When I was in small hospital after injury I have snack as at home, what a good surprise (but in soldiers' canteen the food quality is owful, really)! The best to wounded and sicked is not an empty words. There were not such things in 1995. Unfortunately, there are a few such people and may be my unit is an exception from others, I don't know.

But the difference in my eyes is obvious. But you cannot find this in our press - pro-President side will talk a tales about might and glory, anti-President will have shower us from their feces-thrower and the truth is only in men who really served in Russian Army.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.18.130.132 (talk) 12:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for your comments and comparisons of 95 and 05. Would you feel happy identifying your unit (even if only by location or MD), so I can cite your experiences in the article? Buckshot06 07:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention to my words. Traditionally, Russian Military does not speak much about their unit identification, but I already have printed my experience in one Russian magazine, so I can tell that my service took place in some unit of Mulino harrison, Moscow Military District. AFAIK, the group of US soldiers or Marines were at this place in 2006 on joint military exercises with Russian Military. Some other remarks about current situation:

• The overall situation is better than in mid-1990-ies but still very heavy;
• High crime rate partially has its root from the poverty of 75% of Russian people. Conscripts are taken from the socially-ill strate of people, so they inject their pre-service criminal habits into army life. But this is a illness not army, but country in general. Practically any Russian boy now are trying to escape army service by hook or by crook and this relation makes his life in Army more and more dangerous especially in light of their beings in mass as "mother's sonnies". The life in any army harsh and difficult and these pity young people are completely unprepared, they are still children. So many of them trying commit suicide or escaping or in affect state killing even their friends or became victims of matured mates who are using every chance to show their supremacy over defenseless boys. So I am strong supporter of setting the conscription age at 23: 18-aged children should by matured in adult civil life, threw out their childish pride and accept the chain of command in civil circumstances and only after that he must go to the Army. Torturing children is a shame.
• The climate in a Russian military unit is fully determined by its commander. Our commander was Afghan war veteran and he pay much attention to every personnel, especially rookies. For example, first time I was asked not only obligatory personal data, home address, my family status but status of my mother, hobbies and interests. But many commanders have no care and dedovtschina in their units roses greatly.
• Another bad thing for Army in general - the literacy of conscripts: the Soviet Union was pride for its school education, but now situation is worst as before October Revolution: Many intelligent boys are escaping Army service due to these nightmare rumours. My platoon leutenant complained me that new conscripts do not know elementary mathematics especially from Siberian and Far East villages. The situation is partially saved by university graduates who were drafted after finishing their education or computer enthusiasts - but the problem exists and once again this is a illness of entire country. As a result, new high tech equipment is explored by enthusiasts both from young officers and few soldiers. But this is a real chance to make they way from Private to Sergeant in artillery, for example. For me, it was a chance to make my way into the library where many interesting books about artillery usage, tactics and history are stored. But such interest is quite rare, but in 1995 it was absent completely! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.18.130.132 (talk) 08:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC).