Talk:Russian submarine Kursk explosion

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Jane's states that "Priz" is a class of DSRV. The line "The rescue ship Rudnitsky carrying two submersible rescue vessels, AS-32 and the Priz" implies that "Priz" is the name of vessel. My sense is that AS-32 is a vessel of the Priz class. I just created Priz class and would appreciate it if someone who knows more would either move my article or modify the text here. Thanks, BanyanTree 14:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Reverting conspiracy theory 2 Regarding the power of the explosion(s) 2.1 Film: Kursk: a Submarine in Murky Waters 3 Some details on Kursk 4 What was recovered?

[edit] Reverting conspiracy theory

I'm reverting the conspiracy theory stuff placed on the page by 86.135.30.143. I'm doing so because it is unsourced. The only "sourced" piece of information is the statement that Kursk had a "concave impact injury," but then it states that this is "typical signature of US MK-48 torpedos," which neither true nor sourced. TomTheHand 14:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The source is Kursk: a Submarine in Murky Waters, the French documentary the section is describing. I have seen it, and can verify that 86.135.30.143 accurately describes the allegations made in it. — JEREMY 04:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I see. I'll look over it in detail later and deal with the obviously inaccurate stuff, like the bit about the small hole in the Kursk's hull being typical of a Mk-48. I'll also restore the criticisms of the collision theory, because they are perfectly valid, whereas the collision theory is a bunch of conspiracy bunk. TomTheHand 13:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I've tried to write a bit about the absurdity of a Mk-48 being involved. I almost removed the "citation needed" from the section describing flaws, as the flaws are common sense and readily verifiable using Wikipedia, but I realized that what is needed is a "Western submarine expert" making these statements. I would honestly feel much more comfortable with this section if it were better sourced; whereas I certainly believe you that all of these statements came from a French documentary, I'm familiar with similar American documentaries and don't consider them reliable. The article would be much better off with sourced statements by real experts or major media sources. TomTheHand 14:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the documentary says that no one really knows how American torpedos work. Then it claims that one of the few US torpedo experts told them 'off the record' that it was a typical MK-48 signature'. It also claims that the MK-48 uses a depleted uranium point to penetrate and then detonate. Since how this torpedo works is top secret I think it would be wrong to assume that all torpedos work in the same way. Obviously shells don't all work in the same way. The problem is, shells go way way faster than torpedos. Torpedos don't have the kinetic energy needed to penetrate. The DU will have no use at all. Maybe it is still possible to create penetrating torpedos but the MK-48 seems powerful enough to destroy a ship without penetrating. And if it did penetrate then when it detonates wouldn't the sub/ship get teared to pieces?

The first rebuttal point to the film, regarding the amount of damage to the American submarine leaves me somewhat cold. To begin, we dont have an estimate of how much damage actually occured on the US sub. Further, the idea that simply because one object is more massive than another it would cause more damage does not seem correct. To the best of my knowledge, there are a considerable number of factors involved in how damage occurs, including hardness of the materials, how the architecture of the impact points, the angle of attack and so on. For instance, a key can be used to scratch a car, despite the key being of considerable smaller mass. Perhaps there is something to this argument, but in its current form I have trouble with it.

That's a positively silly argument. Sure, a key can scratch a car, but it won't rip a 2 meter hole in it. And, if anything, Soviet subs are very robustly designed. They may be loud, big and dangerous to their crews, but they are famous for their structural integrity. There is also 2 meters of water between an Oscar II's inner and outer hulls. While I can imagine a scenario where a Los Angeles boat half the size of the Kursk could sink it in a collision and still limp back to port under its own power, I can also imagine a scenario where the Kursk was hit by a meteor. Either scenario seems extremely unlikely. Epstein's Mother 20:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, while I'd say the current evidence does not point to American involvement, the 4 reasons used to rebutt are all flawed:

• Mass differential: I hadn't had the chance to look at the French film. However, in a double hull configuration, the outer hull is made very light (and thus weak). There is no need for it to withstand water pressure because the space between the outer and inner hulls is flooded with seawater. The lighter outer hull allows more weight to be saved for the inner pressure hull that bears the seawater - and Russian pressure hulls are often made with titaniums or steels as tough as HY-140 equivalent. Further, a "soft" outer hull is more easily curved into complex hydrodynamic shapes. When faced with the American pressure hull (HY-80), the light outer hull will deform easily, which will actually reduce the deformation (damage) on the American sub in a "cushion-like" effect. So it is possible that in a light collision, the American sub will suffer less superficial damage (though the Russian should suffer little or no substantial damage). On the other hand, if the collision presses all the way into the Russian's hard pressure hull, the mass and tensile strength differences would spell heavy damage for the American).
  • • there is still no explanation why if two subs collide at speed, one explodes and sinks and the other, half the size, can sial away without being detected. if nothing else the damage would have made the US sub very noisy underwater. 217.7.209.108 11:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Answering you as a devil's advocate. First, if I understand this right, that French conspiracy theorist didn't say it was the collision that killed Kursk. It was the torpedo fired by Memphis that killed Kursk (and even that was indirect - it apparently knocked a torp off a rack or something, causing the ultimate damage). So all Toledo had to do was get away without crippling damage. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • As for the detection part, according to this theory, it was a coverup b/w the Russian and American governments. The Russians could have watched the whole thing happen and it won't cripple that theory. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Something like this can be seen in Augusta's collision with a Delta I in 1986 (ref: Hostile Waters) - the American suffered minor flooding (light deformation of the pressure hull). The Russian suffered an ugly looking dent (the outer hull being heavily deformed) but no flooding at all (no damage to pressure hull).
• The ROE: Officially, American subs weren't supposed to sneak into Soviet waters. However, substantial anecdotal evidence suggests that American submariners enjoy sneaking into Soviet waters and then altering their logs to conceal it. Even if you assume the stories themselves were untrue, the mere fact they can say this so openly speaks wonderfully to their respect to rules, the rights of other nations ... etc. No, the rules are IMO not an adequate guarantee for them not to fire.
  • accepted that there may have been US subs near, would a US sub captain sneak into the center of a live fire exercise? wouldn't he simply listen from a safe disatnce? 217.7.209.108 11:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't think there's anyone that doubts there were American subs close. As for the distance, unlike in a Tom Clancy, submarine detection ranges are not always that long even w/ vaunted American sonars. And the Barents are not exactly great acoustic conditions (try reading [[1]]). So to get the intel they want, they may well have had to go in very close.
• Acoustic homing: So turn off the sodding active homing and fire them in with pure wire guidance. Besides, the Kursk would have a much bigger active sonar signature and in the event a purely active-homing shot is made, there's every reason to believe the Mk48s (or most active homers) will select the Kursk based on target size.
• Warhead: Doubt it was KE penetrator. Even if the low velocity penetrator breached the hull, if the warhead was omnidirectional the small hole would be blasted open. Rather, it is more likely the charge (assuming conspiracy theory is true) was HEAT-like shaped charge, a tech that had been around for a long time.
  • a HEAT warhead would punch a hole, not cause a dent. the only way a torpedo would cause a dent would be if it failed to explode but had enough kinetic energy to cause the bump. 217.7.209.108 11:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • The pictures linked seem to show a hole and a wider dent. The problem is that we don't know the warhead(s) (might be tandem charge) or how well the blast of a 650 pound warhead can be contained into a very narrow cone. Kazuaki Shimazaki 12:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I repeat. I don't think the Americans did that (based on current evidence), but if they did that, these rebuttals are kinda weak IMO. Kazuaki Shimazaki 05:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the power of the explosion(s)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_submarine_incidents_since_2000 says that "...This second explosion was equivalent about 3-7 tons of TNT..." This fact has a source

Before I edited http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_explosion, it said "...Monitoring equipment showed an explosion equivalent to 100 kg of TNT..." This fact doesnt have a source.

Therefore I am changing 100 kg of TNT to 3-7 tons of TNT.

[edit] Film: Kursk: a Submarine in Murky Waters

Kursk conspiracy is equated to Bush stealing election in Florida. I want to believe but not in cuckoo kaka.

[edit] Some details on Kursk

Kursk suffered from severe design deficiencies.

1. The double hull was basically the Sierra hull structure, and would have worked well if built of titanium. Built of steel, it was inflexible (see US Navy photo of cross-section of Oscar-I hull) and buckled under the force of the first explosion.
2. The control room was not separated from the torpedo room by other compartments, as is customary in submarine design. Hence the initial explosion transmitted shock and fumes directly into the control room.
3. Propellant-grade hydrogen peroxide was used in Kursk not only for Tshkval torpedoes, for which it was essential, but also for conventional torpedoes. Northern Fleet knew this was a bad idea, and had protested, but was overruled by Moscow. Propellant-grade hydrogen peroxide is about the nastiest propellant imaginable; it slowly decomposes spontaneously, putting pressure on pipes, valves and fittings; it is extremely corrosive; it causes fire in such materials as textiles and leather, and a hydrogen peroxide fire is very difficult to quench except by dilution by water flooding. This would have severely limited Captain Lyachi9n's attempt at an emergency blow. In addition, the initial explosion quite likely jammed the forward bow planes.
4. There was no "gertrude" in the aft section that could be operated if the forward section was disabled, and there was no way to release the aft emergency buoy.
5. Oscar-II was a single-purpose sub, built to attack American carriers. but it was cluttered with too much stuff; it had more missiles than would reasonably be considered useful, and, incredibly, it was equipped with mine-laying capability.
6. Although Kursk was very large, it was still too small to have logical space for everything aboard. In particular, note that addition of the extra reactor compartment (Kursk had two compartment V compartments), in an attack sub using two Typhoon SSBN reactors, meant that the reactor spaces wouldn't fit the intended hull diameter; in photos of Kursk on the surface one can see the resulting bulge just abaft the sail.

Crew manning was unsatisfactory. There were no experienced regular navy michmanny aboard; the michmanny were reservists. In the torpedo room (compartment I), during the exercise there was no damage control technician; only one inexperienced officer, two torpedomen, a bilge control seaman, a bow sonar artificer, and two factory technicians from the torpedo factory, who knew torpedoes but had no experience with hydrogen peroxide. The damage control officer was back in compartment IV, instead of in Compartment II where he should have been. And there was too much brass in the control room; everybody and his cousin had gone along for the ride, which must have caused confusion and conflicting orders immediately after the first explosion.

Inadequate attention has been paid to the fact that Peter the Great launched an antisubmarine missile and was greatly surprised by the size of the resulting explosion; they initially though they might have hit USS Memphis. The dents noted in Kursk may have been caused by that missile, and the missile may also have sprung the hydrogen peroxide leak. (Damage to the sail, initially attributed to collision, was caused by hull fragments blown back and up by the two explosions.)

As for USS Memphis, it seems very likely that some electronics in Memphis would have been damaged by the second explosion in Kursk. Contrary to reports, no US sub launched an emergency buoy, but Memphis departed the area quite slowly, as one would expect if the technicians were busily restoring critical electronics to operable status.

Vyssotsky 18:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)Vyssotsky

That's very interesting information. Do you have a reliable source we can cite so we can include it in the article? TomTheHand 18:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What was recovered?

The article conflicts itself about whether the bow or stern were recovered. Were both recovered? It is not clear from the article.It says "Most of the hull of the submarine, except the bow, was raised from the ocean" and also "the Russian Navy recovered the Kursk's bow section". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.176.159.92 (talk) 14:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC).