Talk:Sacred language
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[edit] Hebrew
Is Hebrew a sacred language? I believe most Jews (in the US at least) speak Yiddish (or English) rather than Hebrew, and it is used for the ceremonies. -- zandperl 03:57, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Yiddish, like English, German, and Russian, is a vernacular language spoken by many Jews--it is not the language of prayer or ritual. Vicki Rosenzweig 04:00, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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- I added Hebrew, though I'm a bit shaky about how much Jewish liturgy is conducted in the language; I suppose it varies by denomination and congregation. -- Smerdis of Tlön 04:34, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Hebrew is an ancient language, with sacred words .Some of those words are common, some are not. YHVH is replaced with Adonai, as an example.
In interest of NPOV.I think we should allow all beliefs their sounds, and words.
I mistyped, I meant to say that I believe Hebrew is used for the ceremonies, rather than Yiddish. But I'm sure Smerdis is right, that it varies. -- zandperl 13:16, 28 Oct 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Sanskrit
The article says that Sanskrit is still a living language. Is that correct? In what sense? (Many years ago I read rumors of a village in India where Sanskrit was still spoken, but others wrote that it was a hoax.)
Jorge Stolfi 19:13, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
- My understanding is that Hindu writers continue to write new texts in Sanskrit, and speak it conversationally. Oral performances of the Ramayana and other Sanskrit poetry continue to occur for entertainment, so I suspect even more people can understand spoken Sanskrit to some extent. While the language is no one's native tongue, it continues to be a living language if it is spoken and new texts are created in it. Smerdis of Tlön 19:24, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
That could be one sense of "living" indeed. However by that standard Latin is living, too; and possibly so Aramaic, Geez, and Coptic. The other sense of "living" is that the language is used for everyday communication without being tied to a particular historial canon, and thus capable of evolving (at least in principle). In this sense Latin is not "living", because "good Latin" is defined by the classical texts and not by current usage. I wonder which sense the linguists would use?
All the best, Jorge Stolfi 23:01, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
- Of course, any language that is in fact used regularly continues to change, regardless of a historical canon. My take on the matter is that Latin was a living language until Renaissance humanists insisted on enforcing Classical norms; this made the workday Latin written by lawyers and clerics much more difficult to learn and use; late medieval Latin had its own non-classical norms of usage. My understanding is that linguists distinguish two continuums here: mother tongues versus learned languages, and living languages versus dead languages. This is what I meant by "learned but still living;" no one speaks Sanskrit as a mother tongue, but it is learned and used. Smerdis of Tlön 14:32, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Telugu???
This article says that Telugu is the language of compositions in Carnatic music. While this is true, I should like to point out that Carnatic music is not a religion! It is a musical tradition, all right? If no one objects, I'm deleting the stuff about Telugu.--Siva 01:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Tamil?
The article now mentions that Hindu temples in Tamil Nadu are chanting in Tamil as well as, or instead of, Sanskrit. Is this an archaic form of Tamil that is difficult for modern speakers to understand? The article is unclear about this, and makes it sound like these Tamil prayers are recent innovations. If the Tamil used for prayer is not markedly different from cultivated literary Tamil, I would question whether it constitutes a separate language cultivated for religious ritual, and would therefore fall outside the scope of the article. Smerdis of Tlön 22:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
FWIW, the text about Tamil read:
- Tamil Lot of works that are considered to be sacred to Hinduism, such as Thiruppavai, Thiruvembavai, Kandar shashti kavacham etc., are equally chanted along with Sanskrit prayers in the Southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu. The recent government rule had changed many of the Hindu Temples in Tamil Nadu, which were offering prayers in Sanskrit languages to Tamil language. This also changed some of the marriage ceremonies to be performed by chanting Mantras in Tamil instead of Sanskrit. Most of the Churches, and some of the Mosques in Tamil Nadu also offer their prayers in Tamil language.
Since no one has stepped forward to argue that this means that a distinct form of Tamil is cultivated as a sacred or liturgical language, or that the Tamil used in these ceremonies requires special instruction in order to be understood by the speakers of current Tamil, I don't believe this falls within the scope of the article. Smerdis of Tlön 14:02, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Ladino
EL LADINO: Lengua litúrgica de los judíos españoles, Haim Vidal Sephiha, Sorbona (París), Historia 16 - AÑO 1978 [my bolding]:
- [...]ya que dicho ladino calca a lo largo de su discurso la lengua sagrada, recurriendo paso a paso a calcos lingüísticos (sintácticos, lexicales y semánticos), me atreví, haciendo de calco un adjetivo, a llamar dicha lengua judeo- español calco que se opone a la lengua hablada todavía hoy por los descendientes de los expulsos de 1492. De igual manera llamo judeo-alemán calco, judeo-italiano calco, etc., a producto de semejantes traducciones, y hasta islamo-persa calco el producto de la traducción literal del Corán al persa.
- [...]La función primera del ladino o judeo-español calco fue pedagógica, pero, poco a poco, ya que el texto subyacente es sagrado, el ladino vino a sacralizarse y a funcionar -segunda función- como lengua litúrgica.
- Así es que aún hoy en día, en ciertas sinagogas sefardítas, los sábados: siguen leyendo (meldando) la sección sabática versículo por versículo de esta manera: primero en hebreo, segundo en ladíno y, por último, en hebreo.
- [...]5) Diferencia fundamental entre el ladino (judeo-español calco) y la lengua hablada primero en España, después fuera de España y a la que, por un contrasentido de la historia, se dio el nombre de judeo-español o español de los judíos.
- [...]A este castellano de los judíos, que comenzó a diferenciarse -verdaderamente- del castellano peninsular hacia 1600/1620, lo llamo djudezmo o judeo-español vernáculo que siguió coexistiendo con el ladino, lengua litúrgica y no hablada a no ser el diálogo entre Dios y cada creyente.
[edit] Sacred languages as used by pagan reconstructionists
I'm not sure whether/where this belongs in the article, but pagan reconstructionists (those who emphasize historical accuracy) often use the language of the relevant culture in ritual contexts. For instance, a strict Hellenist pagan may learn and use Ancient Greek for religious reasons; a strict Norse pagan may do the same with Old Norse. Because that general attitude exists in many similar religions, however, I have trouble wording the new information consistently with the rest of the page. --Ingeborg S. Nordén 23:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
