Talk:Saka

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saka is within the scope of WikiProject Afghanistan, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Afghanistan-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Languages, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, and easy-to-use resource about languages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.	language Portal
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.

Saka or Shaka are names that Persians and Indians called Sarmathians and Scythians by it,so this article must be redirected to Scythian page. (Anonymous User:81.12.38.14, not otherwise represented at Wikipedia)

On the other hand, the article on Scythia and the Scythians is now well grounded in archaology, referenced, and linked. This speculation on "race-origins" does not belong at Scythia. This article needs some intellectual ballast. --Wetman 08:31, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 "Pottery associated with Saka peoples has also been found in Iran?" 2 Merge proposal 3 Mr Wetman 4 Sakas and Turkic ? 5 Whats in a name 6 Iranian names, family names 7 Saka and Drang nach Osten 8 Saka and Iranian literature 9 Zagh 10 Surgery 11 Some reasons that Sakae people are Turkic 12 Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes

[edit] "Pottery associated with Saka peoples has also been found in Iran?"

The text reads "These Sakas followed other Aryans into present day Iran, and returned back to their original area in Central Asia." What motivates such a contortion? Is this a post-Soviet equivalent of "Pottery associated with Saka peoples has also been found in Iran?" A disinterested outsider senses that in such contortions several ideological dogmas seem to be served at once. Hard for a Westerner to disentangle. In Soviet archaeology in Central Asia, excellent technique was habitually combined with race-political interpretations. Is there any way to cut the spin and tell the story here? --Wetman 15:03, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The entire second paragraph looks like it's heavily contaminated with a lot of needless, irrelevant, and discredited race-science POV. There is no credible evidence linking the Saka, a putatively Iranian-speaking Central Asian nomadic group, with the Germans, the resemblance of "Saka" and "Saxon" aside. The spin can be cut from this article, but it would involve starting from scratch. Janos Harmatta, a credible source on pre-Islamic Central Asian nomads, would link the Khotan Saka (existing far later than 3000 BC, but carrying the ethnonym) ultimately to the Kushans by way of the Yueh-chih of Chinese sources. The problem with the whole shebang is that nobody writing the relevant histories from the Greeks to the Chinese were particularly consistent or accurate in naming groups of "barbarians". Designations like Yueh-chih or Xiong-nu get applied to different groups living in the same places at different times, who might not have had anything in common with one another.--KASchmidt 05:11, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

As far as I know Saka (Scythian) and Shakya (the Buddha's tribe) are totally unrelated, although both were probably Indo-Aryan (since the Shakya were Kshatriya). I have never seen anywhere a connection between the two, appart from some vague suggestions from time to time. I really don't think the articles should be merged. PHG 11:33, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll second that. There's an "Aryan Scythians" agenda lurking here. --Wetman 17:13, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mr Wetman

1- you reject without any clear alternative reason. 2- Budha was not Kshatrya cast but Chudras. 3- Chudras were farmers and not millitary or Defenders (Kshatryas) 4- Budhas family were land owners (Feudalistic nobels)

[edit] Sakas and Turkic ?

The little we know about Sakan language is enough evidance to know that Sakas were not speaking a language vocally harmonic !

The Turkic languages are branch of Mongol family and similar with this branch of languages it has vocal harmony !

Today turkics have been enfluenced by Persian, europeans, Arabic, Hindi. they have loan words which are not vocally harmonic but these aren't Turkic definitions originally

What we know about Turkics is relatively new compared with ancient Sakas, The turks or Turkics are related to mass immigrations happened during and after Moghol war expanding for the last 1000 years.

Certainly one may say that the indoeuropeans or indoaryans genetically survived during\under brutal dominance of Turko-mongolic alien occupants!

These regions were showered partly by Mongol agression and immigration followed when indigenous people lives and cities were ruined or disabled.

Historical records tells us the Mongols would attack many cities and brutally murder entire population, encluding women and children in Sentral asia, west china now called Turkistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Capsean sea region , also Caucasus and Anatolia )

This has lead to creation of Othoman empire and same expanding began in east and sentral europe! So the wave of Othoman Turkic agression towards Europe was attached and followed by Mongol empire ! and its only reason : Distruction !

After when attacked any who survived would stand to rebuild but often disturbed by mass immigrations of agressors tribes.

Savagery of mongol-turkic tribes were so brutal that they them selves began to change or regret after disusters and then adapting ISLAM as their religion or Persian culture for their social requirements.

The culture of all turkic Asians and Europeans today is what I call Perso-Arabo-Europeanic! They are not Shamanic any longer. They were nomades before satteling so they did not need governing, social strcutures, the culture law.

The cultures and countries we know as "TURKIC" are indeed mixture of many ethnics and divers races, ethnic languages, cultures, sub cultures so one may say for instance Uzbek language belongs to mongol family yet their race is not purely mongol ! they are mixed.

Notice that whole above happened for the last 1000 year whilst studdy about Sakas goes back to ancient times ! .............................................

Some turkish guy sent insulting messege here in English and Turkish, here is his or her ID !85.101.213.10 10:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whats in a name

Could saka be derived from the name for horse 'Ashva'.

[edit] Iranian names, family names

Many Iranian names of cities : Sega, seka, sika, sigaa, sigu, segaan, sigaan, sikan, sakan, sakaan, Sagasar, Sakasar, Siestan ( Sakastan ) , sagez, , .............and names , Ashkan, Sasan (sakan or sagan ) , or ...............family names : Sakai, Sekai, Sakui, Sakoi, Sakooi, Saakaaee, Saakaaian, Sasani, Saghai, Sazai, Ashkan, Ashkani, Askui, Askooi, Ashkooian, Askaani, TONS of names of cities, regions , mountains, rivers , even human names and family or clan names cognated from SAKA. also mystical terms in persian piterature such as SAGHI a highly respected "BAR TENDER" whom is giving, or donating, or even allowing the POET to drink WINE or taxucating drinks ! Bartender some times appears as God or some sort of super being ,, but his devotion is not more than a normal bartender would do in a bar ! plenty of songs in Iranian foklorinc expressions SAGHI has the sentral rule ! I think a house where drinking water for public would be called Sagha khaneh (?), a Sagha is whom protect the water disturbers ? water-man would be called sagha (?) I am not very sure on sagha or sagha khaneh issue, any one who speaks persian? leave a coment on this please !

[edit] Saka and Drang nach Osten

The recent User:24.251.32.45 who has recast this article has done comparable work at Drang nach Osten. --Wetman 06:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Saka and Iranian literature

This article does not mention the importance of Saka heroes in Iranian literature. The Saka heroes Rustam, Zal and others are among the most important heroes of Persian nationalism and Persian literature. Usually, Persians identify themselvs with these Saka heroes, as mentioned in Ferdousi's "Shahnama". According to some historians (for example Frye), this is a proof for the Iranian heritage of the Saka. -213.39.153.241 21:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Zagh

Many Persian dialects use a word "ZAGH" for any one having blue eyes. Being ZAGH is not necessarily being white or European. I make some example below :

Kamran Russ ast = Kamran is blond ( rus or ross not to be mixed with Russians, see below example ) Mikhail Rusi ast = Mikhail is Russian Kamran boor ast = Kamran is blond In kurdish Kamran SUR e = Kamran is blond but when Kamran ZAGH ast = his look maybe Indian , Arabian, Turkish, Persian, European.....only the color of eye. So maybe Saka people have had genetically divers background yet their eye color could have been either blue or green ? We can find many ethnics like that in Caucasus, Turkey, Israel, Palestine, Iran and India : Sarkass or Sakiss for instance , varies skin or hair color but majority blue or green eyes. Dark haired-skins with Hazel eye or braun and black with sort of BLUISH or GREENISH flash in the EYE is also ZAGH. Majority Gypsies in europe are Zagh acording to this definition ! Many dark tribals from India too are Zagh. The conclussion is : Has ZAGH any thing to do with Saks linguistically? can any one answer me professionally?

[edit] Surgery

I have deleted a major part of the article. The theory that the Germanic people has originated in the Saka branch of Indo-Iranian has no support at all in the handbooks. There are no similarities between Germanic and Indo-Iranian beyond the fact that both language groups are Indo-European. They do not share any common linguistic innovations (even the merger of o and a is different in the two branches since Germanic does not have "Brugmann's Law"). The racial argument is even more problematic. Enkyklios 11:43, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The deleted text:

Although, the term "Aryan" is today limited to the ethnolinguistic identification of Indo-European speakers in India, it was once a commonly used term for the Indo-European family as a whole, before the Second World War when Nazi propogandists utilized the term for their political movement. Ethnically, the Germanic nations are a separate branch of the Indo-Europeans and their language is not closely related to the Indo-Iranian branch. Nonetheless, there are significant historical linguistic similarities between Germanic languages and Indo-Iranian languages which combined with other archeological, histographical, and ethnological evidence provides a compelling case for the Germanic peoples having origin in the Saka/Scythians if not the entire Northern Indo-Iranian speaking Aryan nations. Furthermore, evidence suggests that at a minimum, the Alans, a Central Asian Iranian people related to the Scythians, are known to have entered Europe and merged with Germanic Gothic tribes in the 4th century AD, taken part in the conquest of Rome and eventually settling in Spain.

...

Growing anthropological evidence suggests that the Saka race, with an affiliated tribe under a different name, fled the Hunnic and Mongol-Turkic invasions of Central Asia and migrated to the area of the Baltic Sea, giving rise to the Saxon tribe in the area of present day Germany. Interpretation in the 19th century of primary sources and sagas relating to the Völkerwanderung ['fœlkər"vandərʊŋ] ("the migration of peoples"), known as the Germanic Migration Period, led to numerous early archeological expeditions into Central Asia. These early anthropologists discovered the initial findings which buttressed the linguistic studies of European languages then showing startling similarities between national groups.

By the early 20th century, enough archeological discoveries had been collected which when collated with the new statistical methodologies and linquistic development patterns provided near overwhelming evidence for European origin in Central Asia particularly among the Germanic nations. However, growing specialization of the arts and sciences contributed to a diffussion and fracturing of the Aryan study and retarded it's development. Finally, political revolutions in the Russian Empire, World War, and other events made continuing discoveries near impossible.

Additionally, politicization of the scientific study by various groups also limited it's growth. As competing ideologies began infiltrating academia, the legitimacy of both proponents and opponents of the Aryan theory became questioned. During the spread of Germanic Nazism, Hitler utilized the Aryan origin theory of Germany as citation for Drang nach Osten ("Striving towards the East") which was in favor of claims that Germans were "original descendants of the Aryan race" and deserved the right to return to the East. However, anti-Germanic and anti-Nazi groups equally mobilized evidence from philologists to reject the notion, and began frivolous questioning of the archaeological evidence for major cultural contacts between anyone in Uzbekistan or Iran, and the Baltic area. Only now after fifty years since the end of WWII has the academic community began to rediscover the Aryan study. Nevertheless, Germans have always maintained by virtue of tradition, saga, and history that there there was a connection between people in Central Asia and their own ancestors who were settlers from the East.

According to the traditions mentioned in Gothiscandza by Jordanes, Gotho-Germans were settled for some time in the Vistula Basin and south-east towards the Black Sea. They battled with, and temporarily subjugated, the ancestors of the Slavs (there were many Gothic loanwords in proto-Slavic), who lived between the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea and ultimately settled in their former homelands of 'Scythia' a vast undefined region that includes modern Ukraine, Belarus, Southern Russia, and the Central Asian steppes (called Oium by Jordanes). The implication being that the Germans originated in Scythia.

Sagas of the Germanic nations also cite references to ties with the East. For example, when the Saxons invaded England ca. 400 AD, their chroniclers said they "sent back to Scythia for reinforcements". The deduction is that the Saxons considered themselves to be Scythians -- the name having traveled with them, even though they were far away from the region the Greeks had labelled "Scythia". Additionally, the word Saka and Saxon have the same root spelling and in more than one chronicle, the Saxons are described as Saka and vice versa. Furthermore, the description by unrelated individuals separated by generations and nationalities of the living styles, customs, manners, and warmaking by both Sakas and Saxons are near identitical. The burial customs of the Scythians and Vikings also show similarities, wherefore nost archeologists specializing in the subject argued a common origin in support of the theory. The English are known to be descended from two related tribes, the Angles and the Saxons.

Other sagas by the Germanic nations also describe battles and customs clearly related to events in the steppes. One great saga describing the Battle of the Goths and Huns, clearly portrays events which are chronicled in other primary sources in Rome and India which are described as taking place in Northwest Central Asia. The Hervarar saga which also describes the battle details a history between the Goths and Huns which spans over generations in which the Huns were in present day Northeast Central Asia. The combined histographic conclusion is that the Germanic nations had settlements in Central Asia which they felt significant enough attachment to fight the growing Hunnic Empire over.

Paul Pezon ardently supports the Germanic national claim, stating that the Saka Scythians and the seemingly related Cimmerians were ultimately ancestors to the Celts and Germans, and that the Germans fled the Baltic area when it was flooded by the rising sea level after the Ice age reasoning that the German tribe Cimbri are thought to be descended from a branch of the Cimmerians).

Some researchers have argued that both the Celts and Germans came from an area southeast of the Black Sea, and migrated westward to the coast of Europe, starting with the reign of the Persian king Cyrus the Great, when they declined to help him in his conquest of the Babylonian empire. Herodotus (Histories I.125) takes the "Germanii" for a division of the Perses (Persians)..

About 50% of Slavs and Balts and about 30% of Central Europeans share the same Y chromosome (R1a) with 50% of the people of the Indus Valley.

[1]

[2] [3],[4],[5] See also: Pashtun, Jat (people)

[edit] Some reasons that Sakae people are Turkic

1st: mostly of them was horsemen; 2nd: they buried dead in kurgans; 3rd: they was archers; 4th: they lived in Central Asia & didn't migrated to anywhere(like it's said in western books); 5th: You can't say about their genetics 'cause you never saw them.

[edit] Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes

Now that copyediting has made it clearer what the content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes is, I suggest that that it be deleted and relevant sections be moved to Indo-scythians, Scythians, Sakas, Scythia, etc.

The content of Invasion of India by Scythian Tribes itself substantially duplicates these articles and I can't see any reason for keeping it as a standalone wikipedia entry.--Saganaki- 11:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)