Talk:Saki

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Contents 1 Anti-Semite 2 Anti-Semitism 2 3 Get over it! 4 Spoilers 5 What's with the history? 6 What the Dickens? 7 Saki's antisemitism 8 antisemitism and homosexuality 9 The Pond 10 Avoidance of loaded adjectives

[edit] Anti-Semite

We need to document the claim that Saki was an anti-Semite; this is a damaging charge and should not be made without a clear lead back to the evidence. --seglea 07:02, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I didn't intend to slander Saki, just to point out that he makes no effort to avoid the prejudices of his time, especially with regard to suffragettes (often) and Jews (occasionally). Aside from "The Unrest Cure", which plays on the idea of the then-current pogroms, there are throw-away lines in other stories. These are catty and sly, rather than genocidal in tone, but nonetheless are worthy of note, in the context of their time. One is to the effect that "the Jews are so kind to their poor -- and our rich". There are others, though I can't find them right now. He was much crueller to categories of women he disapproved of.

BrainyBabe (how do I insert my sig and datestamp?)

use ~~~~, i.e. 4 tildes (NB I've rearranged the above exchange to make the sequence clearer) --seglea 22:03, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Seglea. --BrainyBabe 22:50, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

And why should he make an effort to avoid the prejudices of his time? As Steverapaport wrote below, Edwardian England and most of Europe was anti-women, anti-semitic, and anti-(most of everything else). If his stories reflect the norms of the time, it does not need special mention; rather you must mention it only if he depicted an ideal world different from the one that existed. Besides, it is usually not Saki as the author himself who makes any anti-Semite remarks, it is only his characters, most of whom Saki is making fun of, and showing as absurd. Shreevatsa 15:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

21:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)The comments about Chesterton seem unneccessarily harsh. The Anti-Semitism portion of the Chesterton contradicts the impression that I get of Chesterton from the Saki article.

[edit] Anti-Semitism 2

I don't know if Saki would have counted as an anti-Semite in his own time and context. His stories did contain occasional throw-away lines that would not be acceptable today; were he writing in 2004, I doubt if he would include them. In addition, there is one short story, "The Unrest Cure", that is problematic. I shall attempt to deal with this in my updates to the wiki article.

[edit] Get over it!

Ok, first let me say that I'm Jewish, and living in Europe, in probably the third-most anti-semitic country here. And yes it worries me.

That said, seeing anti-semitism everywhere leads only to paranoia and madness. Seeing misogyny everywhere is the same.

H.H. Munro was writing in Edwardian England, for chrissakes. The entire society was misogynistic (they were using social pressure and ridicule to prevent suffragettes from achieving votes for women), and pretty much all of Europe was unabashedly anti-semitic. The English were also anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim, anti-Hindu, and pretty much anti-anything else that wasn't Church of England.

The Unrest Cure is my favorite Saki story, and he clearly considers the "killing of the Jews" to be a patently ridiculous idea. It's intended to crack you up laughing, and it does. The two Jews he does mention in the story as potential victims are both presented as respectable pillars of the community, and the prospect of having "The Bishop and Colonel Alberti" plotting their demise in the drawing room is clearly intended to upset people in the story, to be "a blot on the 20th Century", not to generate approval.

Saki's humor is viciously satirical, but it tends to be pro-nature, pro-animal, and anti-establishment. (And anti-aunt.) In no way is it partisan to any religion or, for that matter, gender. Those who cry "Wolf" every time someone mentions a Jew or a Suffragette are simply damaging the cause for those on alert against real anti-semitism and misogyny. --Steverapaport 10:04, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I certainly hadn't noticed any particular anti-Semitism in his stories, other than the general sort of ethnic humor which, while not harmless, was an ordinary part of U.S. and British culture at the time. In putting Jack London's racialism in context, I noted, for example, that in 1901 H. G. Wells wrote, in Anticipations,

And for the rest, those swarms of black, and brown, and dirty-white, and yellow people, who do not come into the new needs of efficiency? Well, the world is a world, not a charitable institution, and I take it they will have to go.

W. S. Gilbert in Ko-Ko's song includes "the banjo-serenaders and the others of his race" on his list of "society offenders who might as well be underground for they never would be missed."

And that was the cleaned-up version -- it used the N-word originally instead of banjo. And yet I don't see accusations of racism prominent in W. S. Gilbert's page. Why slander poor Saki? --Steverapaport

I don't have any examples of what might be called "casual" anti-Semitism handy right at the moment, but there are plenty. --Dpbsmith (talk) 13:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers

This page gives away the endings of a number of Saki's stories, and I have therefore added the spoiler warning template. I know they're all fairly well known, but allowances should be made for those who have not yet had the pleasure. --Csernica 00:14, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Someone with an equal sense of propriety has peppered the quotations with links, a lure I imagine to distract the unwary to Wikilectures on Heaven or Hell. --Wetman 17:50, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually the extra links are mostly superfluous and distracting, IMHO, and blatantly contravene the Wikipedia guidelines on excess linkage. I hope they're removed by someone with a better sense of propriety.

I have attempted to do so -- my first time at removing substantial amounts of material (albeit only links) from a Wikipedia page. So no more runaway cows but only a runaway cow. Thank you to the previous (anonymous?) poster in the line above this, who pointed me towards guidelines that say that common ordinary words should not be linked.

BrainyBabe 22:02, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ooops, forgot to sign that comment. My name shows up too much on this page as it is :) I was the anonymous poster. Since you've started, BrainyBabe, I'll look and see if any more distracting blue can be removed. Thanks so much for the work! Steve Rapaport 18:18, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ok, took me a few tries but I like it now. Steve Rapaport 18:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What's with the history?

I don't know if this is a bug restricted to this article or others too, but clicking "Older revision" from http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saki&direction=prev&oldid=284217 (which has date 2001-11-07 12:37:51) takes me to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saki&direction=prev&oldid=284216 (which has date 2002-03-26 18:25:21). Further, the former one above (2001-11-07 12:37:51) is the oldest date I can find, but its edit summary looks like it's an edit/revert of an older article. What is the matter? Shreevatsa 10:28, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not following you. The first link you have above goes to 7 November 2001, not a 2005 version. - DavidWBrooks 13:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

That's what I said, isn't it? The first link above has date 2001-11-07 and is the oldest version, but clicking "Older Revision" from there takes you to a newer (2002) version, not an older revision. Anyway, drop the matter, I learnt from the user page of the conversion script that this bug was known. Maybe someone can tell the author of that bot to restore the history of this page....

[edit] What the Dickens?

"Basically Saki is like Charles Dickens......" I don't think this line should remain, or should at least be heavily qualified. It is a highly subjective opinion; which I for one don't share. I think Saki and Dickens' styles are very different. I personally think Saki is like a more bitter and twisted version of Wilde......but that's my opinion and I wouldn't present it as fact. -B.G. 13/10/05

You're quite correct. It's gone. - DavidWBrooks 14:53, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

And a good thing, too. I completely fail to see the resemblance. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

i just read the article on this guy and if you ask me he`s the british mark twain who agrees with me.

[edit] Saki's antisemitism

At present she's rather in a Balkan state of mind about the treatment of the Jews in Roumania. Personally, I think the Jews have estimable qualities; they're so kind to their poor- and to our rich.

- from Reginald on Worries, so you could ascribe it to Reginald rather than Saki himself. There's another story with a nasty tone- A Touch of Realism.

I don't think Saki was very antisemitic [nor was Buchan, actually- in The Three Hostages the villain is an archetypal "jew out to conquer the world", with Svengaliesque hypnotic powers except that he is a CofE conservative MP] and his attitude to the jews of eastern Europe- where jews faced real persecution- was sympathetic in his journalism. However, there is a long tradition in English literature of antisemitism as a convention- often an unthinking convention. Even radicals like Bage and Peacock were casually antisemitic in their books. I think Saki- like other writers then- assumed the same attitudes. Compare Belloc and Chesterton who made definite attempts to import European politico-religious antisemitism to Britain to see the difference in attitudes and assumptions. - found your remarks while I was looking up refs for another site discussing Saki's antisemitism, so what I wrote there seems appropriate. Another interesting book involving Edwardian antisemitism is Israel Rank by Roy Horniman, the basis for Kind Hearts and Coronets.

Roger Allen 08:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] antisemitism and homosexuality

Tidied and amended a little. Roger Allen 18:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Pond

I'd just like to put in a good word for this little-known story, the first of six uncollected ones, a link to which is included at the end of the article. I think this is a neglected masterpiece (unlike the other five). It is exquisitely poised between tragedy and comedy, with a most moving resolution in favor of I won't tell you which.

38.117.238.82 07:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC) now known as Kostaki mou 00:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Most of the other five are deservedly forgotten, like much of his longer pieces of writing, but The Pond is good. BrainyBabe 13:23, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Avoidance of loaded adjectives

I welcome the addition of new material by an anonymous (probably new?) editor, and encourage this person to create an account. In addition to various small changes, I have stripped out the phrases praising the works added to the reference section (e.g. "A very useful and entertaining biography"), while retaining the works themselves. We can make value judgements on Saki's stories -- that they are witty or cynical or whatever -- only because we are reflecting the opinion of published commentators. Anything else would be original research, which Wikipedia avoids. We cannot write our own value judgements about Saki's work, or works about him. Again, thank you anonymous person for your contributions. BrainyBabe 09:31, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I think you're being a bit too rigid, Brainy. You and I wrote our own value judgment about The Pond in the paragraph immediately above, didn't we? Yet you don't seem to have any problem with that--nor should you. It is, of course, carefully labeled as our opinion, and the fact that the story is linked to the article enables anyone to check it out and see whether or not they agree with us--just as anyone is free to check out the new editor's references and see whether they agree with his opinions about them. It is not as though he were submitting information without backing it up. Kostaki mou 05:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia! And thank you for creating an account -- it helps, among other things, keep track of who made what comment. Two things: one, have a look at WP:A, the policy on attribution, which supercedes those on original research and sources. Two, you are quite right that we editors have given our own opinions on the story above, but that's OK because this is a talk page, a place to discuss the article. Pretty much anything goes here, as long as it's civil -- spelling mistakes, typos, vociferous opinions, unsubstantiated facts, value judgements, etc. Rules and expectations on the article page are rather different. It is a fundamental distinction. Hope this helps. BrainyBabe 16:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)