Talk:Satanic Verses
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[edit] Comment
68.4.99.122 is rewriting the article and inserting factual errors, such as Rusdie invented "Satanic Verses" in 70s. Rusdie's book came out in 1988. The phrase "Satanic Verses" was invented much earlier by Muir. And don't remove all the links and external links. OneGuy 12:08, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Rusdie's book was a novel. The book says nothing about the Qur'an. Even though he got the name from Muir, the novel itself doesn't have anything about the incident reported by Tabari. Please don't add factual errors in the article. Before you rewrite something, make sure you at least know what you are talking about. Your rewrite reads like apologetics. OneGuy
[edit] Zora Edits
68.4.99.122 made the article apologetic and now Zora completely removed the Muslim response and presents the story as a fact. Muslims reject the story because they believe the story is provably false (as three reasons were given) and is invented by munafiqoon. If Ibn Ishaq and Tabari reported the story, that doesn't mean they believed the story to be true. Tabari (where this story comes from -- not Ibn Ishaq. We don't have manuscript of Ibn Ishaq that survives) for example clearly states that he is reporting all stories in his book that he heard from others, regardless of whether he thinks the stories are true or false.
She also added another speculation that Khomeini ordered fatwa against Rushdie because the title of book is Satanic Verses, even though Rushdie's book has no argument about the incident. Why did Khomeini order the fatwa? Because the book supposedly slanders Muhammad and his wives by using vulgar language, not because the title of the book is Satanic Verses OneGuy 07:59, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] OneGuy reverts to Muslim apologetics
I am extremely upset that you chose to censor all the work that I put into the article and revert to the previous POV version.
How is that Ibn Ishaq is a paragon of truth when it comes to writing the biography of Muhammad except when he says something disagreeable? I myself am not sure that the story is true, given my doubts about the oral tradition, but throwing it out JUST BECAUSE you don't like it is the opposite of real scholarship. Zora 08:26, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- The question is not about my liking or disliking the story. I also reverted the POV by 68.4.99.122 until he at least tried to fix some of the problem. You jumped into the middle of what 68.4.99.122 was doing and entirely removed everything added by 68.4.99.122 and why Muslims don't believe the story. You made the article even more anti-Islamic POV, especially by adding false assertion about Khomeini and Salman Rushdie. The question is not whether Ibn Ishaq (or better name would be Tabari and Wakidi and other Islamic sources) reported the story. No one doubts the story is reported by Islamic sources. The question is whether this incident really happened or was it considered by Ibn Ishaq or Tabari as an invention by the Meccans and other enemies of Muhammad at that time of Muhammad? You need to rewrite the article instead of inserting anti-Islamic POVs. You need to clearly state why Muslims believe the story is an invention by the Meccans or enemies of Muhammad. You can also add the counter argument by anti-Islamic sources if you want .. but don't make the article one-sided POV OneGuy 12:42, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Let me repeat it clearly once again since Zora thinks that I am some kind of Muslim apologist and that's why I reverted her edits. Zora apparently doesn't even understand the issue of Satanic Verses. Yes, the story is clearly reported by at least Tabari and Wakidi. However, did Tabari think the story was an invention by the Meccans and other enemies of Muhammad or did the verse really was a part of the Qur'an and latter removed? That's the question. The question is not to selectively discard the story because you don't like it. Islamic scholars believe that this is a true story but was invented by the Meccans. Then they give reasons why they think this true story couldn't have happened and must have been an invention by the Meccans and reported truthfully by say Tabari. Your article didn't make that part clear. Don't start insulting me that I am a closet Muslim apologist and that's why I am censoring you, when you don't even understand Islamic argument. Revise it. Add pro and con arguments, but aleast present the Islamic argument, instead of making it one-sided incomplete POV article. OneGuy 13:13, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anyway, I revised Zora's otherwise good revision myself. Now the article is NPOV -- unless you have something more to add here OneGuy 14:56, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Where does it say that?
This article says: "Since the Qur'an explicitly states that Muhammad is human and fallible..." Where does the Qu'ran say that?--Josiah 20:25, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
In the same surah najm in the third verse the quran days "wa ma yantiqu anil hawa in huwa illa wahyun yuha" he does not speak of his own will it is but a revalation (wahy"
- In number of places the qur'an explicitly says that Muhammad is only a human. And the hadith is very clear on that, for example:
- Sahih Muslim, Book 30: Book 030, Number 5831:
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- ... Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to Medina and the people had been grafting the trees. He said: What are you doing? They said: We are grafting them, whereupon he said: It may perhaps be good for you if you do not do that, so they abandoned this practice (and the date-palms) began to yield less fruit. They made a mention of it (to the Holy Prophet), whereupon he said: I am a human being, so when I command you about a thing pertaining to religion, do accept it, and when I command you about a thing out of my personal opinion, keep it in mind that I am a human being
- So here is a clear example in hadith here Muhammad admits he was wrong and is fallible on nonreligious topics. OneGuy 02:06, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- Interesting. Thanks.--Josiah 00:38, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)
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- Shi'a Muslims assert the infallibility of the prophet and maintain that the Qur'an neither explicitly states nor implies the prophet's fallibility (being human does not necessitate fallibility) but infact advocates his infallibility (e.g. 33:33). They regard hadith that claim otherwise as weak since they contravene the first rule of hadith verification which is aggreement with the Qur'an. Leo Africanus 00:51, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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- You are right about Shi'a belief, but what I wrote above was also correct about Sunni belief. I checked 33:33; It says:
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- And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. 033.033
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- It's just an interpretation that this verse means "infallibility." The verse says no such thing OneGuy 08:38, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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The belief in the infallibility of the Prophet (S) has roots in sunni traditionalist belief. It was never intended to expand to all aspects of his life, but rather to his interprative power of the Divine law. After all, if he was the last Prophet of God, and the last source of religious guidance to all the universe, it wouldn't do for him to leave a permanently lasting incorrect line in God's book now would it. Yes, i know this isn't definitive proof on the topic, but you asked as to where people get it and this is where they get it - 600 years of theological discussion. 128.164.158.3 00:56, 8 November 2005 (UTC)AHMAD
[edit] Who fabricated the story?
Why did you remove that sentence "by the Meccans and other enemies of Muhammad"? I have seen Watt and Muir argue that the story could not have been a fabrication because no Muslim would fabricate a story like that. They missed the point that enemies of Muhammad could have fabricated the story, and the story kept circulating orally among few people (including Muslims who didn't know the facts) till it was recorded by Ibn Ishaq OneGuy 18:36, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Well, if you really want it, let's leave it. Zora 19:27, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Pruned external links
I believe it was an anon editor who added the two "sunrisinginwest" links, which I pruned, as more hortatory than informative. The link to the Rushdie site was really off-topic for THIS Satanic verses article; it belongs to the Satanic verses (novel) article. Zora 09:03, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Anon's edit
An anon made an edit in the "critics say" section, asserting that all religion was shaped by history rather than being divine revelation.
I'm not sure that everyone who believe that Muhammad could wobble in his monotheism would share those views. There might be Christians who believe in divine revelation, but just don't believe that Muhammad had it. The addition is just too POV and argumentative, so I took it out. Sorry. Zora 10:59, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] POV Neo-Con Propaganda
Just to say that these references in the article are from a transparently neo-con propaganda sheet:
- Daniel Pipes: The Rushdie Affair: The Novel, the Ayatollah, and the West (1990), Transaction Publishers, (2003), with a postscript by Koenraad Elst. ISBN 0-7658-0996-6
- Elst, Koenraad: The Rushdie Rules Middle East Quarterly, June 1998
The 'Middle East Quarterly' is explicitly (says so on title page) written to promote American and Zionist interests in the Middle East and includes articles praising Rumpsfeld, Bush, the American invasion of Iraq and the Israeli attack on Lebanon.
For the benifit of any neo-cons reading this it is as well to say that Rushdie is a liberal-leftie and does not support American imperialism in the Middle East:
http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/5934/1/236
http://www.rediff.com/news/2005/nov/10ajp.htm?q=np&file=.htm
Colin4C 19:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hapax Legomena
I removed the hapax legomena, since gharaniq is not one. One search on www.alwaraq.com yields 195 results for this term. Seems that someone tried to mystify the article a little bit. I replaced it with "unclear in this context" since it is rather obscure. Someone added it again, but this is definitely faulty.
[edit] Arabic title
I've removed the Arabic title of the book. That information would be appropriate in the general article on the phenomenon of the contested Qu'ranic passages, but here it serves little purpose. And the place where the book really made waves (in getting its author sentenced to death) was Persian-speaking. CRCulver 20:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Redirected Talk page
Hello The talk page for The Satanic Verses the novel has been redirected to the talk page for Satanic Verses the expression. Could someone fix this Jask99 14:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
- Taken care of. Now you can start a discussion on its talk page. --BorgQueen 14:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
