Talk:Secession

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Contents 1 Blue vs Red states 2 US-centric 3 Definition 4 Norway - Sweden 5 Czech Republic and Slovakia 6 Links 7 Too much detail 8 Creation of new states in the western U.S. 9 China 10 Cleanup needed 11 Misinterpretation 12 Panama and Columbia 13 Secession outlawed? 14 Claim for re-naming 15 Neutrality of "American revolutions" section 16 Australia? 17 Unsourced statement removed 18 DRAFT: SUGGESTIONS FOR REORGANIZING PAGE

[edit] Blue vs Red states

Someone might have mentioned this in some internet chat room, but this didn't seem to be serious enough to be worth mentioning.

After the 2004 presidential election, there is also some initial speculative talk about options for "blue states" (i.e. states with Democratic voting majority for President) to secede from a Republican controlled federal government.

Roadrunner 07:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The "Jesusland" article, ironically enough, makes a cognent comment about this, stating how that most states are in fact "purple" (the mixture of red and blue) and that something as serious as secession could hardly be undertaken realistically in the absence of, say, around a two-thirds majority support, which neither party has in almost any part of the country. Rlquall 13:18, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

More importantly, a real seccession movement would need to have substantial support on the ground in both the cities & surrounding country side. Outside of New England; on a county by county basis, even the blue states are geographicly more red. In addition, outside of portions of the Midwest west of the Mississippi, most of the red states most populated counties are blue. Jon 16:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US-centric

I notice the examples are quite US-centric. Anyone know other examples? There's Quebec, of course. I suppose one could say various winnings of political independence (Switzerland, the United States, India, the breakup of the British Commonwealth) were secessions too. Tualha 23:07, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In the case of Australia, independence from the British Empire can't really be called secession. It was a slow process that only really finished in the 1980s with the passing of the Australia Act. I can't speak for other Commonwealth countries, but certain relevant laws (like the Statute of Westminster) had effect there (Canada, New Zealand, etc.) as well, so I expect their independences were similarly gradual. On the other hand, talk of secession by certain Australian states (well, Western Australia anyway) from the Commonwealth could be relevant. I believe a referendum in the first half of the 20th century showed 60-70% of Western Australians were in favour of secession, but no unilateral declaration was ever passed and the Commonwealth and UK governments didn't do anything to effect the break. -- Perey 22:42, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

East Timor seceded from Portugal in 1975 and then Indonesia in 2002.

Bangladesh seceded from Pakistan some time in the seventies. Namibia seceded from South Africa. Eritrea seceded from Ethiopia.

Other than that most recent developments such as the brek up of Yugoslavia and the USSR are better described as dissolution than cases of multiple unilateral secession.

Andrewb

[edit] Definition

The current entry says that secession is withdrawal from a political entity. This is dubious. It is withdrawal from a federation, alliance etc. Concise Oxford Dictionary: "action of seceding from a federation or organization" Webster's Collegiate: "formal withdrawal from an organization" The key point is that if you withdraw from a federal state, confederation, alliance, organization of states, etc, that is secession. But if you gain independence from a unitary state (whose individual parts have no sovereignty of their own) such as Britain, France, Italy, arguably Spain, etc, that isn't secession, and the movements that call for it aren't secessionist but separatist or (more neutrally) just pro-independence. RichardQ 10:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

A State is a type of organization, so gaining independence from a State clearly satisfies Oxford's definition. BillyBong 17:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Norway - Sweden

methinks Norway in 1905 could be added. Cacophony 03:35, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Czech Republic and Slovakia

Czechoslovakia peacefully split in two parts in 1993

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ez.html

Vegas215 13:43, Nov 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Links

I removed the links to some commercial encyclopedia advertisements because I was directed to do so in this message through wikipedia "Please do not add commercial links — or links to your own private websites — to Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not a vehicle for advertising or a mere collection of external links. See the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. —Cleared as filed. 05:14, 15 November 2005 (UTC)." I re-inserted some non-commercial links that someone had improperly deleted http://rexcurry.net/secession.html and http://rexcurry.net/secession-for-florida.html I also deleted a link to Jesusland, since that link is clearly absurd, especially when compared with the links/urls above. Isn't wikipedia the supreme example of absurd intellectual dishonesty? It really is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.234.65.222 (talk • contribs).

Please don't spam pages with links to your site. In future, it's probably best if you suggest links on the talk page first, and then have someone else add them. I'm not sure you're the best judge of the worth of your own website. — Matt Crypto 20:51, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Too much detail

This article would be much better off focusing on mechanisms and motivations for secession, rather than trying to include all cases. Those movements which are noteworthy would get their own article and those less so, perhaps a few description words on List of active autonomist and secessionist movements—a far more complete listing which seems to have escaped this article's editors so far? - choster 03:40, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Creation of new states in the western U.S.

I've removed reference to this, since contrary to what the article said, the new states weren't carved from existing states (barring those already listed) but from territories, which is a different thing entirely. —Zero Gravitas 04:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] China

I think Taiwan and China is a good example. Somebody please lengthen it. [unknown user]

Taiwan is a very good example of secession de-facto but it's non de-jure. Jon 15:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup needed

• Instead of mixing international secessions with state secessions & local (city & county) secessions, they should be cleanly seperated.
• Also within in section, it would be better to have them listed chronically ordered. (Example: instead of US Civil War followed by Secession movement in South Carolina in 1830s followed by US secession from UK; they should be listed in reverse order)
• Don't go into detail about satire here (Red-Blue state seperation) a link with it's own article (that notes it is satire) is sufficent.

Jon 15:50, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misinterpretation

I think a lot of people are confusing wars of independence with secession.

East Timor was a colony annexed by Portugal, not an actual constituent part of that nation.

The same holds true for many other situations alluded to above, re: "secession."

71.125.254.130 23:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Panama and Columbia

Something should be written about their split. --Kalmia 09:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secession outlawed?

Does anyone have the citation to the United States Code provision supporting this statement: "It should be noted that after the American Civil War, Congress passed legislation outlawing the act of secession by any state in the Union?"

Thanks

[edit] Claim for re-naming

The title is misguiding - the disambigution page should be the page called Secession. What we are dealing with here, are evidently political secessions, between ethnic, religious or other social groups, and there are much more than listed here.
The content of this page is one-eyed: US-centered, and then only looking to recent conflicts. But there were "Secessions" all around history, since the Middle Ages: the rise of the dutch republic, to name only one.
I do not want to spend to much time on this page, but it is really not among the better ones on Wikipedia. --RPD 23:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of "American revolutions" section

• Someone placed the NPOV-sect tag in this section at some point in the past. I don't see any real discussion of the point. The section seems fine to me. Since there is no discussion, shall we remove the tag? -- RayBirks 03:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Australia?

I'm surprised the Australia section doesn't mention the Hutt River Province. Should it be included, even if it is unofficial? 58.106.209.10 09:35, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced statement removed

"The Supreme Court decision is contested by some historians and legal scholars who view the American Civil War as a conflict between two sovereign entities." There's neither a source nor a specific historian or legal scholar. More over, the US Supreme Court decision is binding. Jon 16:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE NOTE: It somehow slipped back in there again. Don't feel like tracing how. Before I remove it with some other changes want to make, will encourage whoever again to provide a source. There maybe some statutes that can BROADLY be intepreted thusly, but I don't choose to include them. If you think so, at least tell us what they are and that it is a broad interpretation. Thanks. Carol in dc http://secession.net/

Carol Moore 19:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC) carolmooredc

[edit] DRAFT: SUGGESTIONS FOR REORGANIZING PAGE

OK, I don't know when I'm going to get to this, but just giving the page and the discussion a quick look over, I think it needs to be re-organized something like the below, with sourced relevant material included and prejudicial headings and overly detailed current info omitted. I'll probably start by adding the first two sections. Unless someone else wants to take up the slack! Comments welcome!

Contents:

• • definitions, theory and research (links to theorists, papers, books etc)
  • chronological history of significant secessions
  • current secessionist movements by continent

Carol in dc http://secession.net Carol Moore 20:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC) carolmooredc