Talk:Shining Path

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Archives May 31, 2002 – July 20, 2006 August 8, 2006 - October 16, 2006 Pre-mediation Mediation

Contents 1 Mid-90s 2 Contradictory sources 3 Edit war 4 Official site? 5 Drugs, geography and social base 6 Tendentious inclusion 7 Peer Review 8 Citation Needed 9 Article is clearly biased 10 Restructuring of the article 11 Rage Against the Machine

[edit] Mid-90s

A few things that might be worth using out of Calvin Sims, "Blasts Propel Peru's Rebels From Defunct To Dangerous", New York Times, August 5, 1996. p. A6, either as citation for something already here or as additional material; byline dates the article as August 3, but it's in the August 5 issue

"The guerrillas bombed a central police station charged with protecting the Peruvian Congress and the house of a general who is the military chief in a region where the rebels have a stronghold… the chief of Peru's anti-terrorist police [General Carlos Domínguez] resigned."

"…the most successful [attacks] the Shining Path has undertaken since [Guzmán's capture]."

"…a civil war that has killed more than 35,000 people and cost $25 billion in damages since 1980."

"'…Shining Path has started to recover from its long demise,' said Carlos Tipia, a leading Peruvian researcher in terrorism."

"In the last 18 months… about 450 people have died… and the Government has detained more than 500,000 suspects…"

"Fujimori[:] 'The attacks do not signify that we have let our guard down… I repeat — we guarantee citizens' security, and the iron fist approach will continue.'"

"With the capture of its central leaders in 1993, Shining Path divided into two factions: one that heeded Mr. Guzmán's call for peace and another that continued the fight under the leadership of Óscar Ramírez Durán…"

"But terrorism experts said that contacts within the grop indicated that Shining Path has now splintered into numerous factions. § The factions are being coordinated by a new group of leaders who had been part of the Shining Path hierarchy during its infancy in the 1970's but who had left the group after a dispute with Mr. Guzmán over the timing of his decision to take up arms in 1980."

There is more, but it is a copyrighted document, so I'm trying to reproduce only what seems most salient. - Jmabel | Talk 06:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory sources

this source and this source give two different numbers of people killed by Shining Path in 2003. Why does it matter? Because this article makes a claim of how many people were killed that year, and cites both of these sources. I guess that the answer is to just delete the information from the article. --Descendall 06:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a claim of how many people were killed that year. Those sources are just used for the breaking up of training camps and freeing indigenous farmers. Is it already removed?--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's still there:

"also for the year, 5 police officers, 2 ronderos, and a community leader were killed by Shining Path, and 6 Shining Path members were killed and 209 captured." One of the sources says

"Sendero killed eight persons during the year: five members of the police, two ronderos (members of rural peasant self-defense forces), and a community leader in the Huallaga Valley." The other says

"Six military and three self-defense personnel were killed in 2003, while six SL militants were killed and 209 captured."

--Descendall 15:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

God, I must be blind. I didn't remove the info, but I included both numbers and put the contradictory refs after them. Do you still think they should come out altogether? I can't decide, as we've now verified the information and pointed out the discrepancy.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing multiple sources and noting the discrepancy is exactly the right thing to do. - Jmabel | Talk 01:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

I recently made a mistake in trying to restore the article after AAAAA reverted yet again. Thankfully this was corrected by a subsequent editor. AAAAA, I really wish you'd knock it off.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Official site?

What is the basis for claiming that a Geocities page with no links out is their "official" site? - Jmabel | Talk 21:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

It does have links, check out http://www.geocities.com/pcp_bandera_roja/ Anyway, I don't think they have an "official" site or even an official position anymore. I've read a few things by people who claim to be spokemen for the group. All of them denouce each other for backing Guzman's plea for peace or not backing it or for being revisionist, etc. It's such a mess that I think you could make an argument that the organization that launched a war on May 17th 1980 does not even exist anymore. Unless someone who has actually waded through all the dogmatic pseudointellectual bullshit that these Maoist Peruvian exiles have been writing on the internet can make a strong case that the geocities site is "official," I think we should call it something else. --Descendall 22:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

The only links I see on the page are ads (pretty ironic). Am I missing something?

Again, is there any basis to believe that this page is "official" for anything? I see no indication that it isn't just one Senderista or Senderista wannabe who put up a Geocities site. It's pretty hard to believe that any actual Marxist organization, let alone Maoist organization, would set up an official site that takes Yahoo ads.

Indeed, is there any basis to link to this thing at all? - Jmabel | Talk 03:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

You gotta click on the hammer and sickle. It leads to http://www.geocities.com/pcp_bandera_roja/inicio/mlmpg.html --Descendall 04:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Aha! Looks like the revolution does not breed competent web monkeys. I missed that entirely.

Again, though is there any evidence that this site is anything other than a wannabe with a Geocities site? - Jmabel | Talk 00:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drugs, geography and social base

On the added template there are allegations of "possible narcotics trafficking". This is not verified, and the evidence is that there is a continuing PCP column operating in the Upper Huallaga Valley. Because the PCP has supporters among the GROWERS of coca, that is not AT ALL the same as being "traffickers." Coca production has long been a cornerstone of the Peruvian economy, so there is no surprise that that a section of FARMERS (who happen to grow coca) support an extra-state military force that has protected them against the ACTUAL traffickers. Evo Morales held up coca leaves in the UN... obviously there is a deeper issue here than "trafficking." I have never seen a single allegation that the PCP moves coca/cocaine over borders or itself processes/develops drugs. In fact, they have a strongly anti-drug program, which is itself distinct from criminalizing the working classes themselves compelled into this economy. Without a verifiable source on the "narcotics trafficking" allegations, I will remove it pending a consensus. In the Stacks

I'm not sure I understand. Are you actually arguing that the coca grown in the UHV is grown exclusively for chewing in Indigenous areas, and that the Shining Path is "protecting" the cocaleros from the traffickers who want to pay them for their crops? Let's not forget that the Shining Path's "anti-drug program" includes, according to Guzman, "selling the imperialists the rope with which we will hang them," as Lenin said, by importing drugs to poision the Yankees. --Descendall 04:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, note that the article says "The government claims that Proseguir is operating in alliance with drug traffickers." --Descendall 04:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Just putting "Shining Path Cocaine" into google, I see that allegations of their ties to drug traffickers have been made by everyone from a former DEA agent who was based in Peru[1] to StopTheDrugWar.com [2], from The Guardian[3] to the AP[4], as well as in scholorly articles[5]. Obviously, the Peruvian government also makes these charges all the time[6], as does Juan Ferrero[7] and the New York Times[8] as well as the Washinginton Post.[9]. And that's what I got from the first few pages of a google search. Believe me, there have been plenty of allegations that the Shining Path "moves coca/cocaine over borders or itself processes/develops drugs." --Descendall 04:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Considering the DEA has moved drugs over the borders, and has used bogus coca-eradication programs to fund counter-insurgencies in several countries, I don't think they are a reliable source. If they had ever been caught doing so, we can be sure it would be not just documented – but a lead story. Unless Evo Morales is considered a cocaine-trafficker, then the pejorative use of the term is just a way of saying farmers in coca-producing countries have no right to protection from the ACTUAL trafficers who have consistently supported counter-insurgencies in both Peru and Columbia. See Vladmir Monetesinos. Not one of the linked allegations has any evidence BESIDES the allegation listed.In the Stacks 19:37, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

To clarify, I am saying that organzing campesinos is fundamentally different from running the business. The workers are not the owners... hence the civil war.In the Stacks 19:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Here we go. We are not saying anything about the campesinos and their rights, or about Evo Morales, by including the often-repeated allegation that Shining Path is involved in drug trafficing. The DEA is not a reliable source? What would you be willing to accept? What about all those sources Descendall listed above? The fact is various groups and individuals have suspected them of drug trafficing or involvement in the drug trade, enough that it deserves a mention here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

None of these sources include anything but the vagues accusations. In a country where Montesinos was a literal narco-attorney, and manager of state, the accusation is something else. We all know that coca/cocaine production was a foundation of the Peruvian economy, why is it a surprise that the class struggle took place there as much as anywhere? Protecting campesinos from the cocaine bourgeoise (interpenetrated with the military/state) is not AT ALL the same as being an organization dedicated to "trafficking." They are different in kind. The utility of this claim, and hence its ubiquity, is different from its verifiability. In this very particular case, making it seem as if the sale of harmful drugs is the very basis of unity of the political party PCP is utterly ridiculous.In the Stacks 18:34, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I pretty much give up. In the stacks' analysis is simplistic and utterly OR. In the real world, narcotics traffickers aren't very political. They support whatever group helps them make money. When a left-wing group hampers the ability of the state to create a monopoly on violence, narcotics traffickers support it. When a right-wing group threatens the ability of cocaleros to demand higher wagers, narcotics traffickers support it. When state corrupt state forces allow narcotics traffickers to run their business, narcotics traffickers support them. The idea that the DEA and the narcotics traffickers are somehow aligned with each other just because they're both evil bourgeoisie imperialists is stupid. It's as stupid as the idea that the cocaleros and the Shining Path were aligned with each other because they were both part of the heroic proletariat. Even if you wanted to analyze the situation from a Marxist prospective, and I don't, it still wouldn't make any sense. After all, one of Marx's key ideas was that capitalism was fundamentally doomed because capitalists will support the very movements and conditions that will ultimately overthrow the bourgeoisie. So even Marx would have no problem with the assertation that narcotraffickers back the Shining Path in their quest to undermine state legitimacy. But that's all neither here nor there because the situation in Peru is more complex than dogmatic Marxism will allow. After all, that's why the Shining Path lost. --Descendall 19:11, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

In the Stacks, you almost had me until "cocaine bourgeoise". I think you're reading too much into the bald statement that the Shining Path may be involved in the drug trade. Decendall listed several diverse sources containing allegations that they are, from a former DEA agent to the New York Times to an anti-drug war group. Whatever your personal take on the subject, the suspicion is verified and worth including, so I readded it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 06:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tendentious inclusion

Under "alliances" in the infobox "possibly narcotics traffickers[10][11]" strikes me as very tendentious. We could say the same about almost anyone operating on any side of any conflict in the Andes in the last 30 years. Normally, we do not. And blind-URL citations to restricted sites do not particularly inspire confidence in the quality and relevance of the citation. - Jmabel | Talk 08:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed.In the Stacks 15:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This is rather funny, now that the Shining Path is back in the news with the new video from Comrade Artemio. Let's take a look at what the recent news reports say about the remnants of the Shinining Path. I remind you, I limit myself only to what has been written in the past three days.

"The rebels now are thought to provide protection for drug traffickers."[12]

"presumably focusing its efforts on providing security and support for drug traffickers"[13]

"Analysts say the group now largely offers protection for drug traffickers"[14]

"Shining Path factions continue to operate in the coca-growing jungle region, where several hundred guerrillas provide protection for cocaine traffickers."[15]

"The rebels who now provide protection for cocaine traffickers in Peru's remotest areas"[16]

"Además, en una entrevista al diario Correo, Oscar Ramírez Durand, el 'camarada Feliciano' acusó a 'Artemio' de trabajar para narcotraficantes de la zona"[17]

"por acción de un Sendero Luminoso articulado al fenómeno del narcotráfico."[18]

"operan en una solapada alianza con el narcotráfico."[19]

--Descendall 01:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

This should be worked into the article. I think the main reason it strikes some as tendentious is that there is little else about it in the article, so it just seems stuck in there.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

So add some of this to the article. As WP:V is clear, the burden is on the person who adds the material and I believe I was correct above in saying that blind-URL citations to restricted sites do not particularly inspire confidence. - Jmabel | Talk 09:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I was doing some research on World News Connection (a database of news articles translated into English) and I actually stumbled across two stories, excerpts of which are below:

Shining Path Leader Confirms Organization's Ties to Drug Trafficking
La Republica (Internet Version-WWW) in Spanish 24 Nov 03
Jaime Zuniga Cordova, "Dalton," central region political leader of Shining Path's Proseguir faction and captured by the Armed Forces on 6 November, confirmed the relationship between drug trafficking and the terrorist group as well as the new "friendly" strategy that Shining Path is using to recruit new members among the population. The television program "Reportajes" broadcast a video showing the Shining Path leader being interviewed by his captors after his arrest following a shootout near San Bartolome, Santo Domingo de Acobamba District, in Concepcion Province, Junin. According to Dalton's testimony, he was in charge of Shining Path's logistics in the central region -- located to the far right of the Ene River -- and, as such, he received protection money from drug traffickers who operate in the region as well as in other remote areas. In exchange, he provided them with protection or allowed them passage through the area under his control. "They approached us voluntarily and they gave us money to let them pass," it was stated by Zuniga Cordova, who is also leader of the column that operated in Pangoa.
Officials Confirm Alliance Between Drug Rings, Shining Path in Coca Valley
Lima La Republica (Internet Version-WWW) in Spanish 09 Jul 03
The drug rings ("firms") known as "Boa," "Lagarta," and "Yuri" that operate in the coca-growing valleys of Ene and Apurimac pay "protection money" in US dollars to the Shining Path column led by Victor Quispe Palomino and Leonardo Huaman Zuniga, aka comrades "Jose" and "Alipio." According to intelligence sources in the Anti-Drug Directorate of the Anti-Narcotics Police (Diropandro), the protection offered to drug traffickers by the terrorists has not only encouraged further cultivation of coca, but also the installation by the peasant farmers of laboratories to process cocaine base and washed paste aimed at increasing their profits. The growth of drug trafficking in the zone, according to what La Republica has learned, is allowing "Jose" and "Alipio" to continue their terrorist activities. It was the column commanded by these two rebels that kidnapped 71 workers of the Argentine company Techint.... Police found the remains of the containers used by the "middlemen" for storing hydrochloric acid (from Brazil), an essential precursor for cocaine. A few meters away they also found other labs for the processing of raw cocaine paste and washed cocaine paste. It is precisely in San Martin de Pangoa and other disctricts of Satipo - together with Huanta and La Mar (Ayacucho) - in the coca-growing valley that three armed companies of the Shining Path's (SL) Main Regional Committee operate and carry out incursions under the command of "Alipio," who according to anti-terrorist intelligence reports, is allied to the region's drug traffickers. His colleague "Jose" was killed in a recent battle with the Army, which combs the coca-growing valley searching for SL columns.... Narcotics agents have confirmed to La Republica that there is an alliance between drug traffickers and the SL: "the firms operating in the coca-growing valley of Apurimac and Ene have contacts and links with the SL, which provides protection for those transporting drug shipments to the heights of Huanta or the San Antonio (Ayacucho) region. "By this route they arrive at Chiquintirca, in the heights of the district of San Miguel (La Mar), where there are trails leading to Andahuaylas (Apurimac Department), and Huamanga via San Miguel and Tambo. They take advantage of this route by using mobile units," the agents said.

Perhaps those can be used. --Descendall 21:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review

I've been thinking about requesting that this article be peer reviewed. It would be nice to get this thing from a Good Article to a real A-Class article. Any thoughts? --Descendall 07:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Needed

Why does the sentence "Shining Path's attacks were not limited to the countryside. It mounted attacks against the infrastructure in Lima, killing civilians in the process" need a citation? Source 13 (http://web.archive.org/web/20041114012731/http://www.solblanco.8m.com/ataq_tarata.htm) used to cite the last sentence in the paragraph, is pretty much proof that the Shining Path DID attack Lima and kill civilians. Unless somebody objects, I think the citation needed should be removed. Jaimeastorga2000 02:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

No objections so far. I dunno what the average waiting time is on wiki, but I guess I will be bold and edit the article. If anyody has any objections, please go ahead and state them. ^.^ Jaimeastorga2000 06:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I interpereted the sentence to mean that civillians actually died in at least one of their electrical pylon bombings. I don't know if that's true or not. I haven't seen any specific sources that say so, but it certainly wouldn't be surprising if they killed a few people on of the hundreds of times they bombed those pylons. --Descendall 02:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article is clearly biased

It refers to the Shining Path as terrorists repeatedly and sources the "U.S. State Department" as a reliable source despite the fact that all US government sources have strong anti-communist biases. Sections of this article need to be fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.174.121.248 (talk) 03:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

The only times that the article's own voice refers to Shining Path members as terrorists is when it mentions the hostage taking at the Techint facility. It uses the word "terrorists" twice. Does anyone think that this should be changed? As for the Department of State's Annual Report on Human Rights, does anyone really think that that's not a reliable source? --Descendall 03:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly a reliable source for the views of the U.S. government. - Jmabel | Talk 01:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Obviously. But is it a reliable source for things such as the number of people killed by Sendero in a given year? I'd think so. Intrestingly, the 2006 report came out just today. --Descendall 01:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it is a "reliable source" in the sense that it meets our standards to use it as a source, but one should not presume it to be entirely accurate, and if another "reliable source" contradicts it, we should report the disagreement. - Jmabel | Talk 17:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It's clear no one is arguing it isn't a reliable source, even if they don't like it. If another reliable source comes along contradicting it, we should deal with it then.--Cúchullain ^t/c 07:20, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Restructuring of the article

This article should probably have a lot more about the origins, ideology, and structure of the Shining Path and a lot less about the actualy history of the war and the military response to the Shining Path. Abuses by the government could be transferred to Internal conflict in Peru. The origins, ideology, and structure of the group can be found at here. --72.75.108.135 07:54, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rage Against the Machine

Perhaps it should be mentioned at the end somewhere that the video for the song 'Bombtrack' by rage against the machine is about the shining path and the incarceration of their leader Abimael Guzmán.