Talk:Shiv Sena

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.

This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (add comments)

This article is maintained by the Indian politics workgroup.

[edit] Libel and Slander

Libel and slander against a vital political party in India gets editors banned here. I have removed all the nonsense in the article. It was highly pejorative of Marathas and can be construed as racist and ethnocentric. Please refrain from using wikipedia as a sandbox for expressing anti-maratha and anti-Hindu hatred. Calling them 'terrorists' and such is uncalled for, since no indictments or formal charges have been made against them. Violence against Jews? Was that for effect of false accusations of anti-semitism? Please, Shiv Sena is an open supporter of Israel and Thackeray an avid admirer of Zionism. Again, baseless accusations without proof from a nutjob leftist with a typical low-class education.(Pusyamitra Sunga 14:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Name of the party

I know that the name originally refers to Chhatrapati Shivaji, but from what I've understood is that SS has started implying that their name refers to the deity Shiva when they've started to start branches in other Indian states. --Soman 18:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

That's an interesting question. Actually I've hear both views from Shiv sainiks myself. My perception is that the ShivSainiks with a religious view see themselves as the "Armies of the Lord Shiva". The ones with a more secular view see themselves as the armies of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaje Bhonsle. (Netaji 06:17, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Criminal Activites and Accusations

Shiv Sena is an Indian political party operating in a democratic country where the media and judiciary are vibrant. Accusations put up by a French source should not be featured in the main article let alone a reference link put up. If what has been said is true then the SS party leader would have been behind bars. This is as far away from a NPOV that we can get. The slant of the article is completely negative to the said political party and hence cannot be said to be NPOV. For instance, the article needs balance and does not present the Shiv Sena thinking behind any of its actions.

[edit] Soman's edits

The user Soman is hell bent on adding what is written in LMD. Mere accusations should not be taken as proof. The SS chief is routinely accused of such activities but then so are ALL the politicians in India. I suggest you remove POV even if it is LMD's pov and not your own. and please discuss before writing such imp things in the article

??? But they are not presented as proofs, are they? What is presented is criticism, and the source of criticism is clearly provided. If you can provide text material that provides another viewpoint, it can also be referred to. However, there is a differntiation betwen if an opinion is published in a major reputed international journal or on an individual fringy blog somewhere.

Also, when Thackerey brought Arun Gawli to the dais of their rallies, how do you from your personal pov analyze that? I have little faith in Indian politicians in general, but Thackerey's record cannot just be whitewashed with reference to the general political culture. --Soman, the left-centric hell-bender 12:03, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Very nice soman but its better if you ref the LMD article as an external link, LMD or Times doesnt constitute fact, in a section titled criminal activities you mention facts and convictions not opinions however "reputed" the journal. You can simply state Arun gawli was present on the stage with him in a rally and give the reference where it is stated, but you can blindly say the things you have said, it has been said that CPI(m) was involved in the kerala sex-scandal cover-up, and in a journal too but I dont see you adding that to the wiki as a fact......

I understand your point, LMD ref can stay there ,but 'Committee for the Protection of Democratic Rights' ??? how fringe is that, thats pure POV and you cannot deny that. The other refs were also vague it was said in 1998 by whom where, and what article were you ref to? Think carefully, dont push an agenda.

-The commie-pseudo-intellect seeker

First of all: Sign your posts. Secondly: I think that accusations, if properly referenced may be included in wikiarticles. Of course a great deal of caution is to be applied in this. Accusations mentioned in articles has to be significant for the party as an organization (and not just of individual members) and the inside the article the accusations has to be balanced to the rest of the content. For example, it would be both irrelevant and practically impossible to list every single Congress politician ever accused of corruption. However, it would be bizarre to leave out the Bofors scandal when talking about Congress or Rajiv Gandhi.

Now when it comes to SS it is highly relevant to mention the links to the underworld and the tendency of the party to engage in muscle-power politics. That doesn't make other politicians saints, but certainly Thackerey's leadership is markably different than that of mainstream politicians in India. SS once started its political activity by murders and fomenting communalism. Also concerning SS, its clear that criminal activities are not just coincidental or individual behaviour, its part and parcel of party strategy of constantly seeking confrontations. --Soman 07:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed you cant leave out imp details like bofors or muscle power, but be accurate and reliable, mention SS demanded south indians out of maharashtra, mention the board blackening incidents,even fire or valentine incidents are fine...but 'Committee for the Protection of Democratic Rights accusations are hardly npov, give ref to the Samana articles urging such articles but the things you mentioned were pure "mirch masala". I hope you understand what I am trying to say.... and what signature?

While ome member of the shiv Sena can be a bit overzealous, why does this article focus exclusively on their flaws and none on their achievements as a legitimate political party. I'm sorry, but this article reeks of Islamist propaganda and anti-Hindu hatred. It still is POV.User:Subhash Bose

"The power of the Sena has come from its ability to create terror most of the times for the good and sometimes for the bad."

This sentence sucks. Even more so since all the examples that follow it are of the "bad" nature.

...In fact that whole section sucks.

Someone(preferably with a better grasp of the English language) really should rewrite this article.

[edit] Sources on "Statue desecration" riots

Makes very pretty pictures of Congress party's hypocrisy: Violent reaction towards Muslims protesting in Bhiwandi by even firing leading to two deaths; kid gloves for Shiv Sena terrorist attacking properties and lives! "Incestous bedfellows" leaps to the mind!

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41866000/jpg/_41866578_shivafp2_203.jpg http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5163288.stm http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060710/nat1.jpg http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060710/main2.htm http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/Mirror/2006/7/10/2/7920062313931279200622587203/images/imgn1city_09.jpg http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/mmpaper.asp?sectid=2&articleid=7920062313931279200622587203# http://www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=307745&sid=REG&ssid= http://www.cybernoon.com/DisplayArticle.asp?section=fromthepress&subsection=inbombay&xfile=July2006_inbombay_standard10184 http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1722155.cms http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=133400 http://www.ndtv.com/homepage/gallery.asp?imgid=316&img=1 http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/1.jpg http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/2.jpg http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/3.jpg http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/4.jpg http://www.ndtv.com/images/APphotogallery/mumbairiots/5.jpg http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=23830&n_tit=Mumbai%3A%20Defaced%20Statue%20of%20Thackeray's%20Wife%20Creates%20Tension

WikiSceptic 17:10, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm glad to see that some Congress members have brains. The Shic Sainiks had every right to protest the desecration of an important symbol of their party. I find it amusing that you attack them for this minor spat, yet I'm sure you rooted for the muslims when they rioted worldwide over the Jylliands-Posden (prob'ly wrong spelling) cartoons of Mohamed. (Pusyamitra Sunga 17:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

The Congress has brains only for malice. The Shiv Sena is the Bajrang Dal of the Congress; they only pretend to be enemies, but they are in fact one. "Important symbol" bollocks; both the Congress and Shiv Sena are nothing but lowbrow robbers who encroach on the public and impose on them. Build your memorials to Sanjay Gandhi and Meena Thugraj on your own properties, not state properties. What is the Janhit Morcha doing? They did good work getting the Courts to force the City to demolish illegal mosques, temples and churches encroaching on public land, but what about this Meena Thugraj temple?

And you only prove your own insanity when you maliciously pretend that I had rooted for the Muslims protesting the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. If you had any thing like a brain, you would have seen from my user page that I would be the last to do so. But you are only an arrogant, conceited hoodlum, whether on the streets or on the web. Your arrogance and courage only comes from your numbers, otherwise, alone, you are a coward. Here you have the Goan traitor Nicholas to back your play, besides others.

WikiSceptic 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

My,my. You have more chips on your shoulders than your Nazi pope. What a pity a maverick like you is all alone here. The fact remains that wikipedia is not about your personal POV. Neutrality is essential. Ahiv Sena is no more violent than, say the Stern Gang who were instrumental in making Israel one of the most powerful nations in the world. Plus, America iwas founded by these kinds of "Thugs", and now they practically own this whole planet! You're just scardy-scardy that the Shiv Sainiks will OWN THIS WHOLE GOSH-DARNED COUNTRY one day. And then we'll all have justice.Like I said, BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!(Netaji 05:57, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Debate over Shiv Sena Article

All right. Now that the article has been protected. I am prepared to debate with anyone who wants to do so about Shiv Sena. I challenge WikiSceptic , Anwar_saadat or anyone to engage me in civilized debate over this decisive organization, although I am highly skeptical this will happen. There is only so much anti-India and anti-Hindu hatred that I can take.(Pusyamitra Sunga 17:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC))

How do you debate with a stone-throwing, violent, fanatic Neanderthal thug? Thuggery and civilized debates are mutually exclusive! WikiSceptic 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

WP:NPA. I don't debate with people who worship with Nazi hitler-youth members like the Catholic pope either, so we're even(Netaji 05:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Who is this fanatic

This article is definitely very pro-ShivSena. Why are fanatics editing this article? Wikipedia is not a repository for party progpoganda. Shiv Sainiks, leave Wikipedia alone!

--Wikindian 19:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Pal, Wikipedia is a repository for Shiv Sena propaganda. Ask Mr. "Neutral" "Administrator" Nicholas, a Goan traitor busy licking it up for the Shiv Sainiks!!!!

This is what Mr. Quisling wrote:

Please do not push your POV. Call the Shiv Sena whatever you want on your personal blogs or forums, but here in wikipedia, respect the Neutral Point of View, and Cite credible sources. - Nichalp 17:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

"Neutral"? Calling a spade a spade is "POV"! I suppose that we must not call Hitler an Anti-Semite - that would be "POV"! I suppose we must not call the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty an act of hypocrisy - that would be "POV". What is NOT POV is whitewashing the criminal and terrorist activities of the Shiv Sena and its ilk and portraying these vermin as kindergarten kids on a harmless rumpus!!!

This shameless hypocrite Nicholas writes: Protection is not an endorsement of the current page version. Bloody hell, Nicholas and Pushyamitra Sunga are complicit, and Nicholas has deliberately protected Pushyamitra's castrated version of the page!!! Not an endorsement my foot!!!

Quit the dreamworld, pal!!!

Baap-re-baap! Hum to dar ke maare kaap rahe hain babu! BWAHAHAHA. I'm neither Marathi nor ShivSainik. I'm a Bengali Telu-Caste. So pity you sir!Oh, and I like Shiv Sena. Always good to see Indians with big HUGE STEEL BALLS!!! That's what they've got brother! And that's why you're afraid. Heh!Ad-Hominen attacks make you look even more like a child, brother.(Netaji 05:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

WikiSceptic 04:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lets ban Pusyamitra Sunga

If there is a mechanism to ban Pusyamitra Sunga from editing, then I am in support of it. He seems to be a Shiv Sainik using Wikipedia for his propoganda. His presence is disgusting.

Too bad, I'm back. Can;t stop the truth mein Freund. Even your Allah/YHVH/Whoever said so. (Netaji 05:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

Allah? Now I am a Muslim? --Wikindian 02:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed ad-Hominem attack

Removed racist and insulting post by Wikisceptic (sceptic indeed). How'd you like it if somebody called your christian pope a Nazi for being part of the Hitler youth gang? Please don;t act like a 12 year old boy.(Netaji 05:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] The real Shiv Sena

It has been observed that some vested forces are trying to brand shiv sena as a terror outfit

Contrary to that Shiv Sena is a truly marvelous political party (the only part in India who has a firm mandate)and its leader is one of the most amazing persons to have ever participated in indian politics (hes a great orator no doubt about it).

If you need any information on this political party or require editing of some portions of this topic please feel free to contact me.

Shiv Sena is one of the most fanatic and destabilizing forces in the country. In the name of defending Indian culture, the Sena has often resorted to violent and criminal means. I don't support any political party that is based on the philosophy of violence for obtaining goals. --Wikindian 02:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Please keep your opinions outside the article. SS must be represented unbiasedly. I'll bet you tacitly support violent political - ahem - 'parties' like LeT, don't you?(Netaji 17:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Let's remove the "neutrality disputed" template in the future

Once enough citations have accumulated in the future, we can safely take the "Neutrality disputed" template off. That assuming that bigots like Netaji stay away from Wikipedia and the far-far left elements stop branding Shiv Sena as Al-Qaeda. --Wikindian 16:12, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] After clean-up

I have added several references to the article, and the history section is now improved. I have deleted all chauvinistic statements in the Sena's favor or have changed the wording. However, the article does not flow well. --Wikindian 20:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biased

No statements in the Sena's favor have been retained. Ergo, article is still biased. Plus, the European Solidaire ref is POV, because European Solidaire is the mouthpiece of a labour org ie left-wing.Netaji 21:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Even you are a mouthpiece of the Sena, then. Some of the achievements of the SS that you inserted were not backed by references. And please don't make subtle, chauvinistic, pro-SS changes to this article. --Wikindian 18:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no political affiliation with SS. I am not a member of SS. You, on the other hand, have a clear bias against them. Only ONE of the achievements is not backed by a reference so I put citation tag on it. I'll get refs.Netaji 19:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not biased. Almost all of my contributions are backed up by references. I agree that the wording might be a little provocative, but I plan to change that in the future. --Wikindian 16:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Maratha bias?

"However, no indictments were made due to lack of evidence and allegations of anti-Maratha bias on the part of the jurist(s)."

Where is the reference for this? This is a sensitive statement, and I am deleting it because I suspect that it is another twisted contribution of the chauvinists. --Wikindian 16:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You call this a credible source?

Subhash, You are citing info from Saamna, Shiv Sena's propoganda mouthpiece. The source never explicity claims as to whether or not the Sena built 5 lakh new houses in Dharavi, so, I am leveling down your praise about this issue. Find some other source or I will delete the info all together in the near future. Same with the info on Shiv Sena apprehending criminals, the rediff article does not explicitly state the Sena's role even once. You are making inane assumptions. This is also a candidate for deletion. Again, the CAS reference, where are the contributions here? Did anything conclusive come out of this issue? This is not a credible reference, and therefore a candidate for deletion. Also, do cite the relevance of Shiv Sena's achievements, and whether they have made significant impact. Otherwise, all these are candidates for deletion also. Meanwhile, read this article on Frontline about the Sena's hippocrisy. --Wikindian 02:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And YOU are cting from a honkey-a** liberal rag like europe-solidaire. BAse your claims from a NON-PARTISAN source or THAT IS a candidate for deletion ALSO.Plus, I'm quoting from REDIFF, NOT SAAMNA!!!!!!!!!Netaji 04:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I won't start a bold letter war with someone like you. That article on the europe-solidaire was from Kashmir Times, if you even tried to look carefully (I am sure you did not, it was too de-chauvinizing I suppose). And that rediff article was borrowed from Saamnaa. I am deleting your useless contributions. --Wikindian 16:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Provide proof that the article is from saamna. You have no basis to prefer one news sorce over another.Netaji 16:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Go to that article and find it yourself one more time. AND, I WILL CONTINUE TO REVERT YOUR SILLY EDITS ABOUT SENA'S ACHIEVEMENTS WITH DUBIOUS SOURCES AGAIN AND AGAIN. WE NEED TO REACH A CONSENSUS ON THIS. PLEASE SUPPORT OR OPPOSE THE ACHIEVEMENTS SECTION.I am putting a warning template in that section.

AND I WILL CONTINUE TO REVERT YOUR SILLY EDITS OF SENA'S CONTROVERSIES WITH BIASED WORDING AND OVEREMPHASIS ON MINOR INCOIDENTS.EVERY POLITICAL PARTY IS ACCUSED OF CRIMINALITY, AND SS IS NO EXCEPTION. TO EMPHASIZE ON THAT TO A GREATER EXTENT THAN THEIR ACHEIVEMENTS IS NOT NEUTRAL!!!!!!Netaji 16:55, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Biased? I changed wording of my contribs to make them more balanced. But all of your contributions are explicitly pro-Sena or defending the Sena. Your sources are dubious. So, your content doesn't deserve to remain in the article. --Wikindian 16:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The section I'm writing is 'achievements of the Sena' so it will show the good things they have done. There is no bias, and all claims are made inarticle.Netaji 17:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

YOUR SOURCES NEVER EXPLICITLY CITE YOUR FACTS IN THE ARTICLE. AND YOU DON'T CITE THEIR RELEVANCE AND IMPACT. THE MAJORITY OF THEM MIGHT JUST BE INSIGNIFICANT FACTS. I HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE, IS IT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND? WHY DID YOU REMOVE THE UNVERIFIABLE TAGS FROM THE ARTICLE?--Wikindian 17:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

BECAUSE IT IS VERIFIED THAT THACKERAY CLAIMED THEM. ONE MAY ADD THAT THE ACHIEVEMENTS ARE CLAIMS.MOST OF YOUR EDITS ARE FAIRLY INSIGNIFICANT ALSO (OTHER THAN BABRI MASJID RIOT)Netaji 17:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Dubious, Dubious source! Thackeray said this only once, that too very vaiguely and just to one reporter. Is this is his stance on every issue? Does he respond this way to every journalist probing the bhumiputra campaign? Find out other sources, or this section is going to be deleted. --Wikindian 17:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I WILL find other sources.Netaji 17:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Here's one more (urban development of slums like Dharavi)[1]

One of the biggest achievements of the Sena-BJP government was to raise construction density and encourage haphazard development of Mumbai’s suburbs by permitting the Transfer of Development Rights (TDR). Much of this was done in the name of slum redevelopment.

Infrastructure

Consider another example. During the BJP-Sena rule, Mumbai built nearly 40 flyovers and the Mumbai-Pune Expressway by partially funding them through a cess on petrol and diesel. This is in addition to the tax levied by the central government for the golden quadrilateral project (that is why Mumbai pays the highest petrol and diesel charges in the country).

Netaji 17:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Subhash, Your claims are laughbable. This is an article attacking the BJP-Sena government, not defending it. How can you cite it as a reference for the achievements section? And the first quote actually degrades the Sena by stating that they encouraged haphazard development. Please find some accurate and relevant sources, not just one or two with a word or two here and there, that too quoted out of context. Find several.--Wikindian 21:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It is precisely because it attacks the SS govt that the positive claims need mentioning, since it adds to their validity.Netaji 22:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That is nonsense, your source actually ends up contradicting your argument. --Wikindian 22:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Deleted the info on CAS and the ambulance, because I could not understand whether these two things made a significant impact, or were they just minor facts inserted into the article with intentions of propoganda. --Wikindian 16:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thackeray's response against bhumiputra coverage

Subhash, That rediff article doesn't state Thackeray's views about the media coverage specifically of the bhumiputra campaign. I am planning to delete it soon. And please don't add silly trivia about SS any more. --Wikindian 16:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes it does. Please read the interview carefully (though I suspect you already have, and are just trying to blindside me):

Q.Is this a fight of local sons of the soil... A.Why are you stressing on this? Do you want to jeopardise these projects? Some vested interests and politicians are afraid about their future if their implementation is successful. So they are trying to scuttle them.

Dude, do you think I'm stupid? I'm wise to youNetaji 16:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

How does that support Thackeray's statement against the media? --Wikindian 16:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll change it to 'vested interests and politicians' then.Netaji 16:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't belong in this article. And Thackeray must have said a million things like these. Will you mention each and every one of them? Cite statements that he has said consistently, and cite several sources. Otherwise, these are just pro-Sena propoganda, and candidates for deletion. We will end up in a cat and mouse game. --Wikindian 16:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute over the neutrality of the Controversial Activities Section

The fact remains that he said those things, and they're relevant to the subject at hand, so they belong there. YOUR Controversy section is anti-Sena propaganda. The goal is to be NEUTRAL.Netaji 16:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Son, its not MY section, it has contributions from other people too. I changed the wording to reflect accuracy. How much more neutral can you make it?--Wikindian 17:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

My dear fellow, you're overemphaisizing minor incidents (other than Babri riot, that's major)Netaji 17:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Think again, all of those are serious and important incidences. Do you like to argue for the sake of arguing? --Wikindian 17:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sez who? You? CAS implementation has SERIOUS local implications also.Netaji 17:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I was refering to the Controversies section. All of these events received widespread media coverage when they happened. You know this. --Wikindian 17:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

No I do not. The coverage was big in local news and covered by liberal editorials hellbent on destroying India. I only saw one or two articles in accredited NATIONAL news sources, and ZERO on INTERNATIONAL NEWS sources. Big difference. But I have no objections to whittling down the details, although individual points should be kept (since they did, after all, happen)Netaji 21:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the international news service again. And make an effort to search for the info, don't just read the front page and say "Not here." Almost all of the incidents in the Controversies section are in the BBC. "Liberal editorials hellbent on destroying India": Why don't you look at what they actually argue for or against? I think you are the one who is deluded by the chauvinistic, blind Hindutva that is becoming popular nowdays. --Wikindian 21:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I HAVE read the coverage. They are backwater articles at best and, while they do deserve mention in this article, you overemphasize their importance by deliberate quote mining. You are the one who seems marred in the self-hatred and negationism that has plagued India since Independence, and Hindutva means to get rid of that and take India into the new millenium as a confident and progressive Hindu Rashtra.Netaji 22:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And kill off all Muslims? I never overemphasize the importance, these are all prominent events that received widespread coverage: the Valentine's day violence, the killing of the MLA, the recent statewide rampage, etc. I don't see how these are minor events. --Wikindian 22:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And treat muslims the same way they treat Hindus in Pakistan and Bangladesh. And I will say it one more time, the facts are overwmphasized.Netaji 22:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That is a different issue which does not belong to this talk page. About your contributions: you still haven't stated their relevance (CAS system, ambulance). But first of all, you need to find better sources, and then state their relevance.--Wikindian 22:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have made some changes to this section. Please take a look at it one more time. I am planning to remove the neutrality template tomorrow. --Wikindian 22:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The facts belong in this section. In order to maintain neutrality, the article must mention achievements as well as controversies.Netaji 23:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I will try to improve this section even further for better balance. This might take a long time, even months. Please don't insert any more flagrant propoganda in this section at least. --Wikindian 23:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slum development

You may dispute the veracity of slum development, but the article does not. I am paraphrasing from the cited article and, as sich, the claim is valid in the context of the article and wikipedia rules.Do not delete my work.You may references that dispute this claim, of course. This is entirely relevant to a Shiv Sena article.Netaji 21:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the sanity of Wikipedia rules, but I do know that your reference does not cite the eventual outcome of the Dharavi development even once. I mean, it never explicitly says that Shiv Sena developed Dharavi, Bal is just saying that "Sena plans to..." So, that source is irrelevant to your information. Find a more accurate source.--Wikindian 22:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope, it doesn't say 'claims to ' anywhere, I quote from TFA:

During the BJP-Sena rule, Mumbai built nearly 40 flyovers and the Mumbai-Pune Expressway by partially funding them through a cess on petrol and diesel

No 'claims' here, just FACTS.Netaji 22:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Go back and the read this section from the beginning. I am referring to the Dharavi slum development section. Read the messages carefully, at least. --Wikindian 22:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And YOU read the actual article as it is now. It says 'SS claims'. I do not have the time to read all of your confusing and garrulous rants.Netaji 22:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The dharavi claim carries greater importance than all other claims because Dharavi is serious issue of urban poverty in India and has a symbolic importance.Netaji 22:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

My rants? Your contributions are full of serious faults. It is for your own good that you should stay focussed on what is going on lest your propoganda be deleted from Wikipedia altogether. --Wikindian 22:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I will say it one more time. Your source is not credible. It never explicitly states as to what happened of the Dharavi development plan. Bal just says that Shiv Sena plans to redevelop Dharavi. So, symbolic importance is useless if the information itself is faulty. --Wikindian 22:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The Dharavi developmental project is ongoing. Here is another third party source showing Shiv Sena's political involvement [2]

Mr Joshi (of SS) has promised to make Dharavi “shine”. Just before the elections, he got Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to launch “Mission Dharavi” which promises to turn the slum into an economic powerhouse.

The statement in the wikipedia article does say 'claim'. Plus, given the importance of Dharavi as a poverty issue, it bears mentioning.Netaji 22:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is another article. This one is more critical of SS's efficacy in the Dharavi development, but it does mention that they essentially spearheaded it [3].

OK, now you need to replace your old source with a new one. And what about the Sucheta Dalal source? That one is also invalid, you need to find a source that matches your tone. And the Dawood and the CAS sources need to be changed also because they are not specific enough. I am planning to delete these two tomorrow unless you update your source.

I have found new sources, specifically an article from 'The Hindu' which EXPLICITLY ACCREDITS BJP-Shiv Sena for the infrastructural improvements in Mumbai.Now, of course, you will say "Everybody is a fascist" or something. Let the chest thumping begin....

Just don;t try to engage in a childish edit war, coz I'll winNetaji 06:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] THERAPY FOR THE CHAUVINISTS

I find it unfortunate that a few rhino-skinned Hindu chauvinists are wrecking articles on Hinduism in Wikipedia. The basic problem with them is that they are so distanced from the street reality and politics of India that they have carved fantastic dreams about Hindutva and the evilness of all Muslims in India. Everything is black and white for them. They have become so hooked to the propaganda that it is like drug-addiction. Anything that has the effect of neutralizing this addiction is dubbed as "liberal propaganda." So, they ignore most of the news sources today. Instead, they base their serpentine scholarship on blind pro-Hindu propaganda from dubious and extremist sources. And then, in all their holy fervor and righteousness, they infect articles such as this one with dysentric and jaundiced views. Anyone who seeks to neutralize their wild language becomes a terrorist-lover, Osama's right hand. The fact is that most politicians, including the all-mighty, fuerher-like Thackeray (who claims that he is a devotee of Lord Vitthala) have only one aim: to stay in power by making the puppett-population dance. And the fragile-brained chauvinists are the most agile puppets, it seems to me. So, PLEASE don't wreck this articles, and, if you think that you have this disease, consult the talk page before inserting any pro-blind-Hindutva propoganda. Thanks for your attention.--Wikindian 18:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic slurs and personal epithets won't work. I'll still netralize this article and make it NPOV, and I'll still correct your edits and revert any biased changes on your part. Whatever it takes.Netaji 19:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Who is talking to you? Do I mention your name here? Guilty conscience? --Wikindian 16:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Shifting gears to third person won;t help. The target of your attacks are eminently clear from earlier posts.Netaji 18:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"rhino-skinned? Black, white, gray, green, yellow? Pick your colorBakaman%% 23:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Why does Wikindian always misspell p-r-o-p-A-g-a-n-d-a? Odd... Netaji 00:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me, that DOES make a herculean difference in what I intended to say. How ape-like of me!--Wikindian 16:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Does it really matter? It's messages like the one by Wikindian above and by you on numerous occassions wreck dispute resolution. They are completely unrelated to the topic, stick to Shiv Sena. Subhash, don't call anyone who is anti-Hindutva a terrorist, that comes close to religious discrimination, and Wikindian, don't call anyone who is pro-Hindutva fundamentalist or fascist, because that gives Subhash some form of justification for his retaliations. You two need to cool down. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for intervening in this childish squabble. I have no desire to engage in a verbal testosterone-spewing contest with Wikindian. However, I should point out that he has repeatedly attacked me throughout various user and talk pages, and made threats and resorted to minced slurs , pejorative language and an intentionally patronizing tone that most people would find extremely gnawing. Religious discrimination? Is anti-Hinduism a religion? What about anti-Semitism, anti-Judaism or anti-Zionism (same things basically)? Are they also religions? Hmmmm? Should one not speak out against anti-Hinduism the sme way that one is expected to speak out against anti-Semitism (both of which have similar patterns of though, interestingly enough...)Netaji 09:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Your crimes are far more serious, Neta, calling someone Osama's commrade and calling someone rhino-skinned chauvinist are different matters. --Wikindian 16:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You three are missing the main point. What color is a rhino's skin?Bakaman%% 03:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Understand that phrase by yourself, I am not offering help. You must be American; you have a flair for looking at everything as relating to color of someone's skin. --Wikindian 03:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

My friend it is YOU who is the product of a color-caste system.Netaji 04:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias again

Origins is biased against SS again. No real facts, just defamation.Netaji 04:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the references. --Wikindian 01:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I will nanny you once again. I will work on this section personally like the Controversies section. I don't think you will ever want to remove the neutrality template unless I hail Thackeray as a saint. Till then, I am prepared for your objections. --Wikindian 01:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I will not remove the neut template until you tone down the section. By all means, keep the facts. Wikipedia is supposed to keep a BALANCED perspective. The section is an attack on SS. That is not your job here. The language in the section is unacceptable.

Thackeray is no saint. We don't need saints in India anymore. We need people with big huge steel balls who will lead us forward. Thackeray is India's Ariel Sharon.Netaji 01:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

There was more to the rise of SS than attacking terrorists and non-maharashtrians and you know it. People were sick with muslim gangs and prostitution rings and wanted someone who'd do something about it and SS championed on that (though their success in this area is questionable, you can mention that).Netaji 01:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Give me your credible source, I don't know any such thing. Now you will say, "the damn liberal media never tells the truth."--Wikindian 01:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Depends on the country...--D-Boy 23:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting edits by Nobleeagle

Eagle, You have spoiled the article with your careless edits. I am reverting them. --Wikindian 18:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Iam watching the article. Try any monkey business and I'll just revert it back.Netaji 18:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Why are you so fond of getting blocked? --Wikindian 23:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a personal attack.Anything you can do I can do. Netaji 00:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Reversion because it doesn't fit your Point of View? I don't think that's how things work. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If he makes NPOV edits that are factually supported I don't have any problems with it, whether it makes SS look good or bad. Facts are facts. The phrase "monkey business" was chosen very carefully. It means "POV edits", not NPOV edits that don't slander and libel against SS. Wikindian should get a blog for that.Netaji 07:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eagle's edits

Eagle,
I disagree with this statements:

"The Sena's ideology was originally based on the concepts of 'Bhumiputra' (Marathi for "Sons of Soil")and Hindutva or Hindu nationalism."

The Shiv Sena swears by this ideology even today. In 2003, Bal attacked people from UP.

Does Sena's manifesto swears by this ideology? The fact that some members of the Sena attacked UP'ites does not prove that all SS members share this ideology today. SS is a very decentralized party, particularly after this Bal-Raj feud thingie.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Thackeray himself attacked so-called UPites in 2003. Read this.--Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"The 'Bhumiputra' ideology refers to the SS's belief that Maharashtrians deserve more rights in Maharashtra than those of other ideologies."

This statement lacks logic. How can Maharashtrians deserve more rights that other ideologies.? And Bal wanted all non-Mahas out of Mumbai.

It may be illogical, but that was a belief shared by many Maharashtrian youth in urban areas. The statement does not endorse the belief, it merely states so.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly... Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

How can they deseve more rights than other ideologies? What is the logic here? Comparison between people and abstract concept? --Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC) "However, in recent times, the ideology has been dropped and the emphasis on Hindutva have been increased."

No, the ideology is very much there. Also, check the grammar.

Grammar will be corrected. Show in SS decrees or public issue statements that they subscribe to this ideology. Otherwise, it's your opinion that the ideology is there & is POV.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Already clarified--Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well they used to, but Rediff's Know Your Party source has said that they have no largely given up the ideology. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

"A large number of disgruntled Maharashtrian youth swelled the ranks of Shiv Sena, pulled towards Thackeray's charged slogans and oratory."

Most of them were also unemployed. I have references.

Show 'em.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Read this. It says

"Unemployed and frustrated youth especially found it easier to believe Shiv Sena propaganda rather than study and verify the facts." --Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Since its formation in 1966, the Shiv Sena has propagated some controversial ideologies, the Hindutva ideology is especially disliked by the Muslim and Christian groups of Mumbai. For this reason, the Sena has often clashed with such religious groups.

This is your personal opinion. Where is your source? And some controversial ideologies? Shiv Sena is inherently controversial.

That's YOUR personal opinion. Many of Shiv Sena's actions are controversial, but you haven;t established anything from their CURRENT ideology that supports your libel.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Just wait, where's the personal opinion? Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

"Some" does not do justice to the Sena. It is a highly controversial party. --Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"Shiv Sainiks attacked movie theatres in Mumbai screening Fire, a controversial film based on a lesbian theme on the grounds that such films violated Hindu culture and ethos and were immoral for Hindus to watch."

How do you know that they thought it was immoral for Hindus to watch Fire? Where is the source?

I believe that Thackeray said so. I'll look for that reference.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"The Sena is also believed to be involved in political violence in order to propagate its ideologies and attack opposing ideologies. For this reason, it has sometimes been described as an extremist right-wing group."

This is not a good intro to the para, it does not summarize the para properly. And you use "ideologies" a little too frequently.

Because ideology is central to SS.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, change the intro, don't revert all of my edits... Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, ideologies is abstract and vague. At least mention what these "ideologies" are along with credible references. --Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"Shiv Sainiks blocked roads at Dadar in central Mumbai and damaged a police outpost." What's wrong with using the word irate?

Oh, didn't realise I removed that..readd it. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

"Although the Sena wasn't directly found guilty of inciting murder, there was some suspicion on involvement."

Source? Sounds like speculation.

So you're saying that there is no suspicion of Sena involvement? lol!Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I just rephrased what was there before...if there was no source then, the entire line should be deleted. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Neta, I am not a ideologue like you, so, understand now? --Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Unless all these are addressed, I am planing to undo these edits in the next two days. --Wikindian 23:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm watching you again.Netaji 23:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe they have been addressed and please don't quickly revert edits that took me a while to make, especially when they do not break any Wikirules. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Neta, you can watch me as much as you want, that won't stop me. I will keep this article clean from your sourceless propaganda. --Wikindian 01:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite of the article

I hope its possible to find a consensus around the fact that the article as it is now does not live up to very high standards. 50% slander + 50% glorification does not equal that the article becomes neutral. POV-pushers on both sides needs to keep their heads clam, and the article needs to be rewritten with focus on the history of Shiv Sena and its role in Indian politics. a few notes:

My head is quite calm.It's the rest of me thats pissed at this terrible article.Netaji 06:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Because it tells the truth about the Sena? --Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

1. 'The Sena's ideology was originally based on the concepts of 'Bhumiputra' (Marathi for "Sons of Soil")and Hindutva or Hindu nationalism.' Is, in my understanding, incorrect. When SS was founded it was mainly focused on Bhumiputra issues. The Hindutva agenda came later, simultaneously with the rise of Hindutva politics in the Indian mainstream.

Yep. True. Though Hundutva dates back to Veer Savarkar.

They took up the Hindutva alcohol after their "bhumiputra" fart was no longer in demand.--Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

2. 'The 'Bhumiputra' ideology refers to the SS's belief that Maharashtrians deserve more rights in Maharashtra than those of other ideologies.' No need to include this in intro. Also its incorrect to state that its an issue of other ideologies.

Hadn't noticed that. Yeah, probably a typo on NobleEagle's part. No biggie. Can be fixed.Netaji 06:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Fix, or aggravate? I am already afraid. --Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

3. 'Shivsainik' needs to be explained. Most wiki readers are not familiar with Indian languages. 4. Front organizations should be listed in a separate chapter, not in intro.

5. The shifted focus from attacking South Indians to attacking North Indians needs to be explained by given background of demographic changed in Mumbai.

But with references.--Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

6. Articles on political parties do generally not have 'Achievements' chapters.

That was Neta "ji"'s much-talked-about genius. I am reviewing that section, and I will clear out a lot of garbage sooner or later.--Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

7. The 'Controversial activities' chapter needs to be rewritten, or perhaps better abolished and relevant details included in a history chapter. No need for listing of events, without putting those events into context.

--Soman 06:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

They were' in context. None of them are just random facts out there in the open. All of them are major events. --Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on almost all points. I put in the 'Achievements' section to counterbalance the 'controversial' section which was there beforehand. I have added nothing but the facts and I have cited everything there. Please don't remove any of it, but rearrangement and rewording is necessary. However, I am by all means prepared to help rewrite it as you suggest if a certain anti-SS polemicist is willing to do so (though I doubt it).Netaji 06:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No thank you, I don't want a disaster to occur. I will have to do a lot of work to undo your reality-blind Hindutva chauvinism.--Wikindian 01:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No show for credible references again

The flyover achivement has many speculatory views, such as the subsequent infrastructural boom. The reference never mentions this. Same goes with the statement about how the achievements boosted Sena's popularity. While these might be true, currently there are no references. And because this is a highly controversial article, facts should never be inserted without proper backing by credible references. So, some parts of the flyover section deserve deletion in the very near future. --Wikindian 01:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The claim is from a highly credible source. As I'm sure you know, "The Hindu", contrary to it's name, is essentially a left-wing newspaper. If a left wing newspaper writes something in favor of NDA coalition then that must mean it's REEEEALLY important. to quote from TFA:

"While successive State governments have been guilty of neglecting Mumbai's transport problems, it was the erstwhile Shiv Sena-BJP government which drastically altered the course. By initiating a range of road schemes, it unequivocally opted for private, motorised transport in preference to public transport."

Wikipedia entry is essentially lifted from TFA, so it'd done and done and correct, so there. Don't waste everyone's time by making frivolous accusations. As to the rise in popularity, that is self evident to any Mumbaikar who's lived in the city for 15 years, but it can be backed up with refs. Btw if you start making frivolous deletes then I can easily find the same faults with your edits in "contoversies" section as you can find in "Achievements". You are not smarter than I am, and don't delude yourself with any false beliefs in intellectual superiority. Like I said, anything you can do, I can do. Netaji 01:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Good, now explain what TFA stands for.--Wikindian 15:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huge error

Why are there section below the references section? Or is it just my browser? --Wikindian 01:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems that there is no easy way to fix this other than revert an older version before NobleEagle's edits. So, please be very careful whenever you edit the article, don't change the syntax in disastrous ways. Eagle can add his contributions later. --Wikindian 01:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the error.Netaji 01:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What?

Transfering the discrimination insertion in the Controversial section to the Achievements section. It does not belong there. --Wikindian 01:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotes from the party's flyers and manifestos are not dubious.Netaji 02:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is the statement that "Hindutva" is not liked by muslims and christians dubious? Muslims and Christians hate Hindus. Just listen to Lashkar-e-Toiba or Pat Robertson.Netaji 02:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is it in the "Controversies" section? --Wikindian 02:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing this part from the article, as promised earlier.--Wikindian 18:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rebuttal footnote

Actually, I was planning to wipe out this contribution from the article, because it is so dubious. But, I was compassionate enough to convert it into footnote. Now that I have noticed this, I am planning to remove this "contribution" from the face of this article for good.--Wikindian 02:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing this part from the article, as promised earlier.--Wikindian 18:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I am keeping this in there till there is agreement regarding the deletion of this info. Don't remove the disputed tag without using your head.--Wikindian 18:56, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Gone.--Wikindian 15:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Baseless content intended for propaganda again

The info on Thackeray accusing reporters of bias against the bhumiputra junk is baseless. He was just talking to one reporter, and that too in a very indirect manner. To interpret this as his stance against the entire media reeks of attempts to insert propaganda into this article. This is a very strong candidate for deletion in the near future.

Same goes with the incident in Varanasi. The blockquote deflects the reader's attention from the main point of the article, and is overemphasized. Nor does it clarify what Bal actually meant. And besides, this quote is not his stance. He said it in response to the demands of ouster of Maharshtrians in Varanasi. Finally, how does his statement on the diktats relate to the whole paragraph? It neither argues against an assertion made against the Sena earlier in the para, nor does it support some other assertion. In short, all this is baseless info. Maybe significant rewriting would make it tolerable, otherwise I don't see the point in leaving it in the article as it is right now. I am removing the nefarious blockquotes, for sure. --Wikindian 18:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popularity on the rise?????

"These moves have been a crucial factor in its increasing popularity within India and the promises of further improvement have boosted the SS's campaigns."

Propaganda.

The Sena's popularity in on the decline. 3,500 members left it recently, along with Rane and other important leaders. Where is the reference in the rise of popularity?

Deletion required in near future. --Wikindian 15:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Careless reverts

Bakasuprman, why are you reverting information on the Sena article without discussion? All the information is consistent, I am reverting your edits. Wikindian 15:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attack on Shiv Sena Overwhelming the article

The section is too big. Need to move it to a separate article with the same name ("Controvertial activities of Shiv Sena" or "Criticism of Shiv Sena") and summarized here.Netaji 05:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That was a nonsense move. If a party has that many controversial activities, then why not put them in their. We should try to be fair and balanced, but that does not mean that we should ignore facts. I am reverting that section back to the main article. Wikindian 15:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Reverted back that section, and removed some repeated info. Please don't take such drastic moves without proper discussion. Wikindian 15:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikindian, that's how things work on Wikipedia, if a section is overwhelmingly long then you should move it. These actions are proof that both of you are simply pushing POV. People will read the main article with all the information if they need to. Just a summary will be fine here. If you guys can work out an NPOV summary, that is. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine by me. Wikindian is the intransigent one here and constantly rsorts to insults and ad-hominem attacks.Netaji 07:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overflowing with achievements

Whoever has contributed this, please explain with proper references:

The Shiv Sena has had many achievements during their Maha rule.

Otherwise, this is just speculation, and a candidate for deletion in the near future. Wikindian 15:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

Majority is myself, Netaji and Nobleeagle; that IS the consensus. Stop talking about consensus WikiIndian, it doesnt suit your flawed argument and your anti-Sena crusades.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:48, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Really? Then why to mention the achievement section at all? Shouldn't the article be balanced? Lets create a separate article for the achievement section also. And why exactly my "anti-Sena crusades" flawed? Do I speculate about any of the facts like Netaji does when he states that the Sena's resume is full of glorious deeds? I pity the naivité of the blinded chauvinists!

Netaji had removed that section from this article becuase he thought that it made the Sena look too controversial. Well guess what, Sena is very controversial, not some glorious Shivaji party. Granted that the section casts a dark shadow on the Sena, but that does not mean that we should ignore the Sena's controversial activities. You are welcome to add more achievements if you have proper references to support them to "balance" the article. But if there are many more controversial activities than so called achievements, then that does not mean that you should totally purge an entire section from the article in the name of "balancing" the article. You can't just shut away the facts because it hurts your tender chauvinist sentiments. Why not cast the Sena in its true light? Is it fair to move all info on Hitler's demonic assualt on humanity to another article in the name of "balancing"? This is what is going on in the Shiv Sena article. Clearly this is the work of pro-Sena chauvinists, and they seem to have created a lobby for keeping the Sena's less glorious deeds out of the public spectrum. Maybe Bal pays them to do this, who knows? Without the controversies section, the article is thoroughly unbalanced. And no, there is no consensus, this section remains disputed. I am bringing back that section tomorrow. Wikindian 22:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Created separate article for achievements also. Will bring it back tomorrow, after bringing back the controversies section. Wikindian 22:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleting neutrality disputed template tomorrow

The Origins section is no longer disputed, unless we take into account Neta's unsubstantiated and speculatory theory that the Sena was born out of a need to protect Mumbai's Hindus from local Muslim gangsters. So, I am planning to delete the POV template tomorrow. Wikindian 22:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Deleting neutrality template once again for the same reason. Wikindian 20:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that the neutrality template in the Controversies section should also be deleted. This section is now balanced, and there are no "biased" judgements here. So, I am planning to delete this template after two days. Wikindian 18:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Danianjan and thank you for your interest and contributions regarding this article. I'm afraid I have the following issues with the section that I feel conpromises the neutrality.

1. The statement below:

"Moreover, Thackeray threatened a number of local industrialists and businessmen with action unless they offered preferential employment to Maharashtrian people"

is not backed up by the supplied reference:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1311115,prtpage-1.cms

In fact, the ref says that Industrialists were pleased with Thackerays allegedly Draconian tactics as it neutralizes unionbaji (or so implied).

2.Regarding the attack on ZeeTV, section should mention (from the cited ref) that Thackeray comdemned the skit as "obnoxious" (for the sake of neutrality).

3.Thackeray's claims of tempered stance should be expanded with background from the interview stated neutrally (means stated as "Thackeray said" etc.).

Thanks for your attention and have a nice day.Hkelkar 19:08, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Put both sections back

I have put both sections back because the move has caused controversy and it is that controversy that has further degraded this article. When a section can get very long then it is common to simply summarize it and then create another page for it. I don't know why Wikindian hates it because all it says is that the "Shiv Sena has seen so much controversy, we had to create a whole seperate page for it". But obviously Wikindian didn't see that and decided to move two paragraphs of achievements onto it's own stubbish page for no reason apart from pushing POV, for it is clear that you were pushing POV, otherwise you wouldn't have done such a thing.

The article is not too long, not over 32k yet, so I'm putting back both sections, but once the article expands it may be necessary to move some content into other pages. That is all. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poor shape

Per my post on Talk:Bal_Thackeray#Poor_shape, I think that some partisan sources need to be used (such as saamna) to illustrate the Sena's perspective on events. Like I said on Talk:Bal Thackeray, despite our views on this matter, we should adhere to WP:RS and use sources like saamna as primary sources for Shiv Sena. To that end, I invite some good Marathi readers to assist in adequately sourcing from saamna.Hkelkar 00:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course the Sena's opinion are highly relevant. It would be highly interesting if there has any document from the Sena on the history of the party. --Soman 09:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Can't you get something off of saamna?Hkelkar 10:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV: Shiv Sena is a fascist party and wants to re-enact such crimes as the Holocaust, the Purges, the Cultural Revolution, the Killing fields, and Pinochet's (thank you God for killing that worthless fuck) stadium massacres. :D—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.230.50.212 (talk • contribs).

Plz do find citations for your useless rants. Btw spitting a mouthful of lies isnt the best way to change the article.Baka man 00:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/h/i/Talk%7EShiv_Sena_5e98.html"