Talk:Shopi

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Кой идиот е нарекъл шопите етническа група!!!!! Ще ви скъсам топките или каквото там имате! Утре някой сърбин ще се закачи да каканиже за сръбско малцинство пак! Оправих доколкото можах, но не мога да го премахна от списъка (категория) с имената на етническите групи в България, за там си трябва повече познания за Уикипедия. Тази статия за шопите е истинска манджа с грозде, всеки писал каквото се сетил. В примерите за характерни лексеми не може да стои "мравучка", както се казва само в селото на умника, който я е добавил, а да няма мачка, шума, кошуля, рипам, работим в значение "правя", чувам (=пазя) и подобни! Sorry, this was for Bulgarians only! In essence, the šopski dialect is not a single dialect but a combination of quite varying features, such as: for Old Bulgarian *back nasal we have > А, У and Ъ (e.g. маж, мъж, муж), for *front nasal > Е only (пет, месо), for *Ъ (er goljam) > О, А and Ъ (вонка, вънка, ванка), for *Ь (er malǎk) mostly > Е, but also the reflexes for er goljam in the transitional dialects, where the two phonemes had merged. For *TJ and *DJ the reflexes are > Ч, ДЖ; К, Г and ШТ, ЖД (e.g. черка, меджа/керка, мегя/ щерка, межда); there are regions with syllabic Р/R and without it (Петрч), Petǎrč, a village near Slivnica, there are dialects without an Ъ (shwa) sound, regions with accusative case (Breznik, Trǎn, Caribrod/Dimitrovgrad and Bosilegrad in Serbia) which represent a stronger degree of transition to the Serbo-Croatian language, dialects with triple system of demonstrative pronouns (T-, OV- and ON-), such as Breznik, Radomir, Godeč, Caribrod. Many of the features in the article refer to just part of the šopski dialects. The linguistic part of the review is not systematic and needs the interference of an expert in dialectology. Finally, the Šopluk region stretches well into Serbia and comprises the Serbian cities and towns of Niš, Pirot, Leskovac and Vranje. In earlier periods, the ethnic identity of the region's population was fiercely disputed between Serbians and Bulgarians, today the tensions are lower and agree that the national identity is a matter of consciousness. They can be revived, however, if enough efforts are put. I cannot help but saying, however, that since Serbia was the first to gain independence from Turkey, its advance in the region of Šopluk and the Torlak zone (Zaječar, Knjaževac, the bordering areas with Macedonia) was facilitated at the expense of Bulgaria, which, in turn, had ruled these regions almost "exclusively" in the Middle Ages. 85.11.148.60 23:02, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

О, аз като се заех да поочистя статията беше навсякъде това етническа група — в увода, в една бивша секция "Region"... това долу, което си видял, просто съм го пропуснал. А за категорията — мога да я махна, но все в някаква трябва да сложим статията, и не знам... Todor→Bozhinov 09:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Ами може да се сложи в категория регионални общности в България, наред със северняци, добруджанци, рупчани (родопчани и странджанци), тракийци, македонци, торлаци (преходни диалекти към сръбски, разпространени и в Северна Македония и Източна Сърбия, в съвремието се самоопределят като българи, сърби и "македонци". Колкото до долния македонец, той сам казва, че шопите не са македонци, но говорят един език. Кой е той, а?:)

85.11.148.150 12:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
A Bulgarian dialect? I think not! They may not be related to the Macedonians (ethnically), but their language/dialect is Macedonian. --124.178.57.238 02:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Macedonians and Bulgarians are ethnically related and actually Macedonian sounds as funny as Shop to me :) Both dialects were once classified as West Bulgarian (see Yat border), which kind of explains it (of course, Macedonian is today a language). They're quite close geographically too, and are two close parts of the same dialect continuum. Todor→Bozhinov 08:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Todore, you can say half of the truth, but can't mix it with a lie. You say 'they were ethnically related ONCE, BUT...' When whas that ONCE and why is that BUT? Was it the time all Slavs lived somewhere in Ukraine? Even this would meet the fierce opposition in Macedonia, for their idelogists tell them they are Ancient Macedonians. Nonsense, of course, and a thing to laugh upon among historians, at least those from the Balkans, but imagine a historian somewhere in Australia or Canada? It may take them centuries to come to a realization of the truth. Even Serbian historians laugh at Skopje's claims, e.g. Srdjan Pirivatric and his book 'Samuilovo carstvo'.
Let's make an experiment. Give me 50 years of authoritarian rule and means to make propaganda, and I will make Martians on Earth for you. Yes, I will make you the descendants of the people who built the Face on Mars, the Atlantean civilization, the pyramids and everything else. Then give me ignorants and naive people around the world and I will make this lie a truth.
I'm wondering why am I replying to the "Macedonians" above. There is something that I've heard in Serbia and describes an unwritten rule regarding Bulgaria: "You talk of Bulgaria only bad things, or nothing. That even more applies for the Titoist jenissars who still hold the power in Skopje (the only ex-Yu republic still to have streets name after marshall Tito). Shall I mention Stojan Novakovic's idea of Serbia being the Piedmont on the Balkans and that "if the Macedonians can't be Serbs, at least they should not be Bulgarians". They couldn't make them Serbs, so, they applied 'Plan B'...

85.11.148.150

I said "they are" and no "but", so all of what you've written is kind of the result of misreading my comment, which wasn't even serious. And I don't quite see the sense of what your post — I mean, we all know this stuff and Talk:Shopi has nothing to do with it. Todor→Bozhinov 13:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

All due respect for User:124.178.57.238, I'll give you an example of what you think is logical, and how logical it is. If the shopi are not Bulgarians, but, you said it, aren't Macedonians either, what are they then? Serbs? It is strange however that they don't speak Serbian at all.
There is a Bulgarian joke about ill logic, I guess you have something similar too: A police chief taught his policemen logic. 'Well, let's say you have a cat. It is logic then to assume that you love animals. If you love animals, then it is logic that you love people more. If you love people, then you love women. Well, if you love women, then you are not homosexual, right?' Then, the smartest of the policemen went home and asked his neighbour: hey, neighbour, do you have a cat? 'No', said the neighbour, 'Why?' 'Aah, you are homosexual!'

85.11.148.150

[edit] Description of the dialect

Lots of problems with this article. Needs sourcing from a mainstream book in Bulgarian phonetics.

1.The article calls the variable /ja/ a diphthong, but it is not a diphthong in most cases, since it only makes the preceding consonant palatalised (also, Boyadzhiev's 1998 grammar, vol.1, phonetics, refuses to speak of "diphthongs" in Bulgarian at all).

2.The statement that the Shops pronounce variable /ja/ as /ə/ in sedja (седя) is wrong too, because this is not a variable /ja/ at all - it is originally a nasal (big yus), and the use of <ja> in modern standard written Bulgarian in its place was just an orthographic decision (should have been a ьъ or something, etymologically). It is not pronounced /ja/ in standard Bulgarian either - it's /jə/ or /^jə/, as it should be from an etymological point of view. Compare mo~zh > məzh (мъж). The difference is that the Shops omit the palatalisation.

3. The bit about /l/ seems like nonsense, too. AFAIK, the sound shouldn't be labialised at all; rather, it may be replaced with a labial /w/ (perhaps somewhat velarised) "before back vowels, consonants and in the end of the word". This has been reported to occur in the speech of young people (see main article about Bulgarian language, where this is attributed to a phonetics book by V.Zhobov), but it is hardly a feature of all standard Bulgarian as reported here; and I have never heard of it being a feature of Shop speech (in fact, to the extent that I have heard it, I'd say that this is not the case, at least not in authentic middle-age Shops; I have my own speculations as to where "wawe"-like pronunciations are to be placed in terms of dialect geography and sociolinguistics, but that is another story).

I'm not making any changes now, because I don't have a book about Bulgarian dialects at home. I would need to go to the library to source my changes and perhaps improve the article in other respects, too. For the time being, I am just placing a factual accuracy tag. --194.145.161.227 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is me again, this time logged in. Still haven't found time to rewrite this, but am moving some of the worst stuff to the talk page. --Anonymous44 15:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

In most places, the /l/ sound is pronounced labialized (more like /w/) before front vowels (e, и), as well as back vowels (a, ъ, o, у). This is in contrast to standard Bulgarian where /l/ is labialized only before back vowels, consonants and in the end of the word.

Shop: лале /lwalwe/; standard Bulgarian: лале /lwale/ (tulip)

Rewrote the section based on Stoykov's dialectology, based in particular on the South-Western dialects and assuming that the Sofia and Elin-Pelin dialects to be closest to stereotypical Shopski. The following bits remain to be sourced:

• Accusative case, long form (after prepositions): masc. него/ньега (nego/njega), fem. нея (neja), neut. него/ньега (nego/njega) , pl. них (nih)

Stoykov says this about some dialects, but not any that could be identified as "Shopski".

• The possessive pronoun for the third person plural is нихния (nihnija) or нихнио, ни'нио (nihnio, ni'nio), нихната, ни'ната (nihnata, ni'nata), etc.
• The interrogative word "що" ("što") is used more often than the standard "какво" ("kakvo"). Shop: Що сакаш? (Što sakaš?); standard Bulgarian: Какво искаш? (Kakvo iskaš?) (What do you want?)

• Palatal /n/ and /l/ ("нь", "ль") can stand at the end of a word or before /e/. Shopski: тигань /tiganj/, конье (konje); standard Bulgarian: тиган (tigan, "frying pan"), коне (kone, "horses")

Stoykov does says this about Samokov, Dupnica, Petrich and Kyustendil, but not about the South-Western group as a whole, and not about Sofia or Elin-Pelin.

• The forms for the relative and the interrogative pronouns and adverbs are the same. Example: Shopski че ме видиш, кога ме нема (če me vidiš, koga me nema) vs standard Bulgarian ще ме видиш, когато ме няма (šte me vidiš, kogato me njama) (idiom: you'll never see/catch me)

I have the same impression, but can find no confirmation in Stoykov. ----Anonymous44 18:29, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strumitsa

There aren't shopps in Strumitsa. V strumitsa nqma shopi. Ot kude na kude 4ak tam da ima shopi. Tova e nqkakva glupost. V makedonia shopi ima samo v Kriva palanka, tam Deltchevo i Malashevieto. No 4ak i v Strumitsa. Aide be! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.130.77.102 (talk) 23:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC).