Talk:Shriners

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Contents 1 circus 2 Some famous Shriners 2.1 Confirmed & 100% adjusted 3 NPOV 4 Clown society? 5 Shriner History 6 Tone? 7 The article is a hype for the Shriners 8 the 2000 decision on Shrine membership 9 Heads up

[edit] circus

are shriner circus performers necessarily shriners?

~thansk. Xah P0lyglut 09:49, 2003 Dec 31 (UTC)

As I understand it, no. The Shrine contracts out the actual circus part of it. (That all I need, a requirement to sell the tickets AND the peanuts!

Paul, in Saudi

You have misunderstood. The Shrine Circus is put on by the local Shriners. Some, but not all of the local Shriners use their own clown unit for the circus. (one who knows)

No, not all the performers in the circus are Shriners. Grye 11:20, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This is obviously slanted, and it doesn't give any source.

This article suffers from persistant vandalism by bigots (as above) and others. Don't mind it - just remove it when it turns up if you are so inclined. Rklawton 21:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some famous Shriners

Of the Shriners listed, not all of them are even listed as Freemasons, a prerequisit to the Shrine. Also, Cat:Shriners are not on a lot of their article pages. I suggest verifying each's Masonic (& Shrine) affiliation here: List of Freemasons, with citation & source; Then adding them here: List of Freemasons, Then adding Cat:Freremasons & Cat:Shriners to their articles. In the absence of this, I'd suggest removing them from this list. I will do all this myself, sooner or later, if it goes undone... Grye 08:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confirmed & 100% adjusted

I would probably tend to delete this part of the talk section after completing this project, as I would hope the evolution of this issue, & it's resolution, would tend to make it redundant, by way of certain policies & watchguards being learned/enacted/etc. It's mostly a kind of workboard. Just a thought Grye 09:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

• Harold Lloyd
• Douglas MacArthur
• Sam Nunn
• Arnold Palmer

[edit] NPOV

This article's vandal-du-jour has tagged a section NPOV. Rather than revert it, though, I thought it might make an interesting discussion. Those who feel there's a POV problem with this section are invited to make edit suggestions. Rklawton 00:20, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry: I deleted the Neutral Point of View (NPOV) dispute mark. I was editing the part about using "Shriners" instead of "Temple" and thought it was better to wipe it out. I say that a person claiming NPOV is editorially obliged to say why and what on the discussion page. Tom Lougheed 03:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You'll find the explanation in the "Shriner's History" section below. His citations are all well known, non-academic works by folks with axes to grind. Rklawton 05:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

As per MSJapan's demand on the talk page, I have specified my cleanup tag to an NPOV tag...although, despite his blunt reply to my change, the page still needs cleanup. The article as it is now has a very critical tone, with words put into quotes in an unncessary and mocking way and ouright offensive statements, esp. in the History section. KyleGarvey 02:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not a cleanup issue at all, which is why I was blunt, especially since I had just cleaned the article up. First of all it's not in such bad shape that it need to go into the main cleanup pool (which is backlogged already) - the quotes are just because someone didn't know how to italicize, and the History is entirely correct as far as I know, having heard Shriners give presentations on the organization. I'm going to look into the "Mosques" thing, because that I'm not sure of. In short, though, an NPOV issue is an NPOV issue, not a cleanup issue. However, I'd be interested to know exactly what it is that you feel is negatively POV, and why you believe it to be such, and please put it in a new section.MSJapan 03:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The quotations used in this article is not meant to be "unncessary and mocking way and ouright offensive statements." The quotation marks are used to make a distinction between the way Shriners use these terms and the word's common usages. When a Shriner says "Mosque", he does not mean a "place of worship for the Islamic Faith." He means a "building used for the fraternal functions of the Shrine," which is non standard usage. Although quotations can be used to mock or show irony, they can also point out non-standard usage of words and thus does not make this page POV. Chtirrell 19:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clown society?

I was hoping that referring to the Shriners as a Clown society would not be offensive. I put it in. Any objections? Tom Lougheed 02:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

You need a source for the anthropological citation. MSJapan 23:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shriner History

The Shriner's blood oath and confession of Allah as God is documented in the secret Lodge document, THE MYSTIC SHRINE, AN ILLUSTRATED RITUAL OF THE ANCIENT ARABIC ORDER NOBLES OF THE SHRINE, 1975 Edition, (pages 20-22). Remember that Allah is not just another name for God. Allah is the name of another god. In usual occult fashion, the initiate swears that he will be inseparably obligated to this "most powerful and binding oath", in advance, and that he may NEVER retract or depart from it.

"The Fez itself, is an example of this double meaning behind most of Freemasonry's facade. Worn and even carried to the grave with pompous dignity, the history of the Fez is barbaric and anti-Christian. In the early 8th century, Muslim hordes overran the Moroccan city of Fez, shouting, "There is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet." There, they butchered approximately 50,000 Christians. These men, women and children were slain because of their faith in Christ, all in the name of Allah, the same demon god to whom every Shriner must bow, with hands tied behind his back, in worship, proclaiming him the god of his fathers in the Shrine initiation , at the Altar of Obligation."

http://www.saintsalive.com/freemasonry/fmsatansdoor.html http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/masonry_lucifers_network.html

We see perhaps the roots of this factual occurence here in an old text entitled: "The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II" Behn, Aphra, 1640-1689

"King _Philip_ made a War in _Barbary_, Won _Tunis_, conquer'd Fez, and hand to hand Slew great _Abdela_, King of _Fez_, and Father To this _Barbarian_ Prince. _Abd_. … you fit me for Despairs, That may instruct me how to follow him in Death: Yet as I'm Prince o'th' Blood, and Cardinal too, You cannot be my Judges. _Abd_. You shall be try'd, Sir, as becomes your Quality. _Osmin_, … 'tis my Moor,--give him admittance strait, The Thought comes o'er me like a gentle Gale, Raising my Blood into a thousand Curls"

The jist being that the Moors sought and achieved revenge against King Philip for the sacking of Fez.

Of the their little known sect, it is written "The Fatimids (8th century) propped up their power by gathering the Ishmaelites into a Grand Lodge of complex initiations and hierarchical degrees; the members were used for political espionage and intrigue; the forms of the order were transmitted to Jerusalem and Europe and strongly influenced the organization, garb and ritual of the Templars, the Illuminati,and other secret fraternities of the western world. The American (Masonic) businessman is periodically a zealous Mohammedan, proud of his secret doctrine, his Moroccan fez and his Moslem shrine." (The Age of Faith, Will Durant p 289).

The Age of Faith: A History of Medieval Civilization -Christian, Islamic, and Judaic - from Constantine to Dante A.D. 325-1300 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.164.155.4 (talk • contribs).

Here are a few suggestions regarding the information you wish to ad to the article. First, stating that Allah is (or isn't) God is POV and unacceptable in an article about Shriners. However, it might make an interesting section in the Allah article. Likewise, the ancillary information you have about the Fez belongs in the Fez (clothing) article. The reference to the secret oath needs better documentation (ISBN, etc.), that shouldn't be any problem, and it may well give you a reason to link to the Allah article (though I don't know anything about a Shriner's oaths). The article could use significant expansion regarding a Shriner's intentions regarding any oaths. However, the possibility that a Shriner intends to serve anything other than the Creator of the Universe seems rather remote given the Shriners' dedication to fulfilling several Biblical commands regarding children, the sick, and charity. Lastly, one should remember that sometimes a silly hat is just a silly hat. Rklawton 01:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

In response to your remarks, stating whether or not Allah is or is not God is completely moot since the quote I mentioned had no intention of positing this as fact. It merely mentions that the Allah being referred to is in fact a single and separate ancient God as there were many in the polytheistic religions at that time.

As far as POV'ing lets take a quick look at your response and see how many things we can pull out that one might argue are "POV":

POV: "stating that Allah is (or isn't) God is POV"

POV: "The reference to the secret oath needs better documentation " (although I tend to agree and have obliged with the request below)

POV: "the possibility that a Shriner intends to serve anything other than the Creator of the Universe seems rather remote given the Shriners' dedication to fulfilling several Biblical commands regarding children, the sick, and charity" Hitler gave out candies to children from time to time, why would people question that he was anything other than part of a vast and benevolant childrens organization?

POV: "Lastly, one should remember that sometimes a silly hat is just a silly hat." That's an absurd insinuation, when discussing an organization as heavily steeped in symbolism as The Shriners are and Freemasons in general.

The Age of Faith (The Story of Civilization, Volume 4) (Story of Civilization) ISBN: 0671012002 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671012002/104-4296238-8175903?v=glance&n=283155

The Works of Aphra Behn, Volume II by Aphra Behn EText-No. 8885 http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8885

THE MYSTIC SHRINE ILLUSTRATED By: John Blanchard eBook 126317 http://www.ebookmall.com/ebook/126317-ebook.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.164.155.4 (talk • contribs).

Your arguments and citations are so absurd they speak for themselves. I see little need to elaborate upon them. It's not that I don't wish to engage in an intelligent debate, it's just that I find myself waiting for you to begin. Rklawton 05:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow! That's exactly what everyone said would happen if I tried to breathe some truth into the one of many Wikipedia disinformation campaigns! Bravo! You are obviously towing the disinformationist line very well and I wouldn't hesitate to guess that you should expect to make it to "the next level" in no time flat. Let's very quickly examine what we have: "You're arguments and citations are so absurd they speak themselves" I'd argue that I in fact made no arguments, I simply pointed out your glaringly oversimplistic POV and weak command of the English language.

"It's not that I don't wish to engage in an intelligent debate" Double negatives are intelligent? Since when?

"it's just that I find myself waiting for you to begin" Really!? I suppose you have already read all the material I've referenced and that is why you have such deep well-thought-out and intelligent responses to the issues I've attempted to bring to public attention.

Before I waste yet another minute of my precious and limited time responding to nonstatements/nonarguments here with the Wiki-weaky people I'll simply wish you all the best! =)

Take care. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.164.155.4 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Tone?

Freemasonry is ostensibly a fraternity designed to create fellowship and benevolence, yet its secrecy makes many people wary. The Shriners, on the other hand, present a public image of a fun-time group, yet they pour millions of dollars into charity, all the while dressed up in a party spirit, wearing their Red Fezzes with great aplomb.

Something about the tone there just doesn't sound right, but I don't know quite how to fix it. What do others think? —Rob (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's altogether inaccurate, and it's also a bit weaselly and POV (it makes a general statement via anonymous attribution, and "ostensibly" implies an ulterior motive), so I actually went ahead and took it out, because it doesn't add to the article at all. So that problem is fixed. I also did some other format adjustment, and dropped a fact tag in as well. Personally, I think the section separations need work. MSJapan 23:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Reading all this is amusing. As a Mason for 25 years and a Shriner for 12, I have to wonder where people come up with this stuff. I always enjoy reading what people tell me I believe or what I believe in. Has anyone here attended a Masonic or Shrine ceremony to actually know what goes on? Gary, June 13,2006

Actually, some of us have. Having just gone through the Shrine myself, I'd say that there isn't anything wrong with this article - it explains the origins of the Shrine (and I've heard that twice), it explains what Shriners do (though more info on units is needed), and of course, the hospitals. I think you may misunderstand the point of the article, and if not, a vague "this is pretty funny" really doesn't help anybody here to address what you see as a problem. MSJapan 01:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think, perhaps, you misunderstood what I was talking about. I have no problem with the article. I was addressing the comments made about Masons and Shriners in this discussion. A "vague, this is funny" seems more than appropriate for what I was addressing. Gary 6-14-06

[edit] The article is a hype for the Shriners

As said the Talk Page of the article on a GOP politician, this article is a promotional page of the Shriner's and not a true wikipedian page : Where is the Criticism Section ? There is none. It's a defaultless organization ? They don't lie ? They don't hide any skeleton in their closet ? What about the Alliance between the Freemasonry of the P-2 Lodge and La Cosa Nostra ? (See "Gladio" article) What about the tentative of the Shriner Douglas MacArthur to genocide the Chinese people with A-bombs http://hnn.us/articles/9245.html

What about the racists-warhawks like Jesse Helsm, Jack Kemp and Strom Thurmond ?

etc., etc.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rodall (talk • contribs).

I'll respond for completeness' sake - What's there to criticize the Shriners about? P2 and the Mafia have nothing to do with the Shrine. Lastly, how does MacArthur's personal ideas have anything to do with the Shrine? I think you grossly misunderstand what you're attempting to talk about. MSJapan 01:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The Masons and the Shriner's are supposed to be a "FRATERNAL" organizations; where is the fraternity in attempting to genocide the Chinese People ? Why these organizations don't expelled such neo-nazis ? Why the imperialists and warmongers of UK and US fill the Masons and the Shriners if these organizations are so "nice" ? Why do they just accept the rich and powerful ones in her ranks ? Why these tiny sects are so hyper-represented ?

etc., etc.

Rodall

You still didn't answer the question I asked, and what you've said has nothing to do with the topic at hand. I don't recall MacArthur bombing the Chinese, and even if he did, I fail to see the relevance (or any proof) of the argument. I would also be very careful about tossing words like "neo-nazi" around, especially when they don't apply. Lastly, your biggest mistake is that you assume that every action ever taken in public and private life by a Mason is somehow related to Masonry, which is patently ridiculous. You also clearly have no idea what Masonry is about save your own misguided ideas. This is not a place for soapboxing. MSJapan 10:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticizing the Shriners for the views and actions of members is like criticizing watercolor painting because Hitler painted.Saxophobia 01:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I know this is a bit old... but genocide? Chinese? You ARE talking about the same China that killed more Tibetans than Hitler killed Jews, right? THAT China? Genocide OF Chinese? Was that purely the CHINESE Freemasons that did that? Yeah, OK, so what was your arguement ?-) Grye 09:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the 2000 decision on Shrine membership

This probably has no place in the main article, so I'm airing my views here. The 2000 decision to admit 3rd Degree Masons directly to the Shrine has brought more (and younger) brothers into the organization, but at the cost of a sharp drop in membership in the rites- particularly the York Rite. There may come a time when the Shrine admits members directly, without the requirement of their being Masons.Saxophobia 01:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, from a membership standpoint, is it better to have inflated numbers in the Rites from members who don't come to meetings, and only pay dues to those groups because they wanted to join the Shrine, or is it better to have members who join the Rites because they are interested in and will be active participants in those Rites? MSJapan 02:38, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I wonder about those men who go directly into the Shrine from their third degree- they may end up as fine Shriners but will they know enough about Masonry? Here in Albany NY (a typical masonic jurisdiction) a man may go from Candidate to Master Mason within the space of three months, or at least within one year. If the Shrine fills up with men who have taken the short cut, I think it's in danger of losing its individual character and just becoming a service organization. (I qualify my remarks by stating that I am not a member of the Shrine)Saxophobia 21:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, as the article points out, the Shrine is very different from Blue Lodge Masonry. Frankly, one doesn't have to know a lot about Masonry to join the Shrine, and one certainly doesn't know a lot about Masonry just by going through one of the Rites. I think your statement is totally unfounded - since you haven't joined the Shrine you have no basis for the comparison and statement you make. I mean, how do you know what the character of the Shrine is if you're not part of it? I would be interested to see if you have a different mindset after actually joining. MSJapan 16:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

That was actually proposed recently, that anyone could join the Shrine, the result being that 3° Masons can join Shrine. The problem is that, in the USA, any Masonic group must be composed of 100% Master Masons to be a Masonic group. So, when the Shrine accepts non-Masons, it will no longer be a Masonic Organization. Grye 09:53, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heads up

Today's New York Times contained a front page article about inappropriate co-mingling of funds (between money raised for the Hospitals and funds raised for entertainment etc.) as well as other financial problems in the Shrine. Be prepared for lots of POV pushers coming by and wanting to add this negative info. Perhaps an ounce of prevention is in order?... ie the regular editors to this page should add something on the NYT article themselves, to prevent the discussion being controled by POV pushers. Blueboar 13:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I read the article, and there's pages of rebuttal, so I simply cut the one-sided addition and left the link to the story. MSJapan 16:06, 19 March 2007 (UTC)