Talk:Shtetl
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I have my doubts about the utility of this page as presently constituted, but until something better comes along am going expand list and sort by country. --Sjsilverman 04:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
And I have doubts about this quote: History of the oldest Eastern European shtetls began about a millennium ago and saw periods of relative tolerance and prosperity as well as times of extreme poverty, hardships and pogroms.
My question is: what is that notion for?
It suggests mostly bad sides ("relative" tolerance) of the history of life of Jews. But this chapter, compared with a list of villages, towns, cities - mostly in Poland, as it even is the only country separated from others, might cause a feeling that something wrong was with it and that its inhabitants were facing mostly bad acceptance and/or lifetime. I am a Pole myself, so I find it pretty derogatory. It was not mentioned that at the time Poland wasn't existed, subdivided into 3 parts: one grabbed by the Germany (Prussia), second one - Russia (Russian Empire), third one: Austria (whose Polish part was called "Galicia"). The towns and cities listed are predominantly from the Galician and Russian part. There's no notion about the German part - mostly because due to political attitude in Germany, Jews were there subjected to discriminative laws, aimed, among others, to comminute jewish kernel communes and not to let create strong national ties in their own schtetlach. In Polish parts - mostly Galicia, that had fought its vestigial autonomy within Austro-Hungarian Empire, Jews were separate in many political or legal areas: they could impose own local taxes, duties etc. within their communes, there were no expropriation history from their real estates etc. So their situation was decisively better than in German parts, mostly because their existence were not that hindered with invader's telling-apart regulations.
Maybe I am too touchy because of my origin. If so, please, correct me, I am open for a substantial discussion. If not, the best thing would be to cancel that part or change it in a more impartial way.
217.70.60.28 18:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] Chelm
Chelm is not a fictional shtetl. It exists and several Jews of Chelm contributed to founding of the Yeshiva Chachmei Lublin, one of the brightest intellectual centres of Jewish life before the Shoah. Chelm is east of Lublin, towards border with Ukraine. (Andrzej Lobelio Kozicki of Warsaw, Poland)
[edit] List of shtetlakh
The list of shtetls that now occupies most of the articles may be better moved to a separate List of shtetlakh. BTW, what is the most appropriate plural form in English, shtetlakh or "shtetls"? Pecher Talk 20:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
- I would use shtetls in the title (as most proabable in searchakh), and shtetlakh in a redir. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
Which shtetls should be included? The basis was Jewishgen list, extended. There are tens or hundreds more. Xx236 13:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
- What I can't stand about this list is its division into "Poland" and "Other," especially since the preface to the list shows how awkward it is to retroject modern political boundaries. But, more importantly: why privilege Poland, within the modern boundaries of which only a fraction of shtetlekh were located? Bws2002 23:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC
[edit] "Shtots"
I'll live with the plural of 'shtetl' being 'shtetls,' since it's become an English word, but why should the plural of 'shtot'be 'shtots,' since 'shtot' is not an English word. For the record, the plural in Yiddish is 'shtet.' Bws2002 23:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see Lódz listed as a shtetl. I am not sure how big the city was back in the day, but, given its current size, I am guessing it belongs much better in the shtot section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mountolive (talk • contribs) 23:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] continuity?
there seems to be a continuity problem. First it says in the introduction: A shtetl (Yiddish: שטעטל, diminutive form of Yiddish shtot שטאָט, "town") was typically a small town with a large Jewish population forced to live there by Germans in pre-Holocaust Central and Eastern Europe.
Then in the paragraph 'History' it goes like this: History of the oldest Eastern European shtetls began about a millennium ago and...
The shtetlekh were located in Eastern Europe, places which evolved with no German interference or influence for the better part of the last millenium. How does this go together?
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.165.190.130 (talk) 11:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC).
