Talk:Siberian Tiger

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Contents 1 Name 2 Able to kill a full grown cow with one swipe of its paw? 3 Disputed 4 1988 Olympics 5 Prey 6 Grizzly vs Tiger 7 Name change 8 Release from captivity 9 Wisents, crocodiles and pandas 10 DMZ 11 Article title (Amur vs. Siberian) 12 Saving tigers 13 Physical Characteristics

[edit] Name

The Siberian Tiger is the Siberian Tiger everywhere, except perhaps in China. This name change was instituted by an anonymous user, 66.75.31.229. Look at this user's other contributions. Surely this was a hoax, was it not? Wetman 02:48, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• I think so too, so I've changed the name back to Siberian Tiger. Although perhaps it should be further switched with 'Siberian tiger' which is currently a redirect. —danakil 01:08, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

• • In Russia it is "Amur tiger". Technically, the Russian Far East is not Siberia.

And Koreans tend to call it the Korean Tiger. --Dan 17:41, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Able to kill a full grown cow with one swipe of its paw?

Can anyone verify this? I have been told reports of Siberian tigers having so much force in their swipes that they are able to instantly kill a full grown cow.

-G

[edit] Disputed

Both this and Bengal Tiger claim to be the biggest. Which is correct?

This sentence is also contradictory with the taxobox, which indicates that it's a subspecies, not a species. -- Smjg 16:05, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The Siberian Tiger is not a subspecies, but rather a species, and it is quite a bit larger than the Bengal Tiger.

• It is larger, but it is not a distict species; it is a sub species. All tigers are Panthera tigris, and the third part, such as the second tigris in the Bengal tiger's Panthera tigris tigris or the altaica in the Siberian tiger's Panthera tigris altaica, is the subspecies.

How about writing it like "The Siberian Tiger is the largest naturally ocurring member of the Feline family."?

the male tiger can grow to be larger than a station wagon. the female tiger can grow to be * 1/2 feet long

--

Despite all the arguments, the general scientific consensus is that the Amur Tiger is the biggest, Many serious sources mention it, including:

• the Guinness Workd Record book: http://www.4to40.com/recordbook/index.asp?category=&counter=461
• Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9072439/tiger
• US Fish&Wildlife service: http://www.fws.gov/species/species_accounts/bio_tige.html
• National Geographic: http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/siberian-tiger.html and http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngexplorer/0311/articles/mainarticle.html

A few printed encyclopedias I remember reading also mention it (can provide ISBN if you are interested). This seems to be the consensus, and I believe we should go with it.

In general, it does make perfect biological sense as in general members of the same or closely related species tend to grow in size in colder/harsher conditions. (Ilvar 22:54, 12 October 2006 (UTC))

[edit] 1988 Olympics

The article says Hodori is a Siberian Tiger. I didn't have much luck (in a short 5 minute search) finding any respectable sites saying he is a Siberian Tiger. Tiger just mentions him being a "stylized tiger". Is this accurate? Ash Lux 00:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

• I have found a couple of references, but not alot:
  1. http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigre_de_Siberia
  2. http://cspace.unb.ca/nbco/globaled/skorea/act01d.html
  3. http://siskorea.or.kr/communications/0203_handbook/hshandbook/page4.html. (This one doesn't explicitly say he's a Siberian Tiger, but it does make it seem likely). Ash Lux 00:18, 9

December 2005 (UTC)

can you please show me some pictures???

[edit] Prey

Someone erases the sentence: Siberian tiger preys on Brown bear. Well, can you give me the reason why? Some tigers do prey on brown bear In Russian far-east.

[edit] Grizzly vs Tiger

Does anyone have a reference to siberian tigers eating grizzly bears? Grizzly bears can be 2X heavier than a siberian tiger. Here is a website that talks about pit fights between grizzlies, lions and bulls.

http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/conflict13.html

That and this is their territory...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Grizzly_map.gif

As you demonstrated quite effectively fights between grizzlies and tigers are quite impossible a rather large Pacific ocean lying between the two... the asiatic brown bear on the other hand isn't so lucky. The truth of the matter is the big Siberian males are quite capable of hunting down the smaller brown bears. However it is important to note that this is through hunting not a head to head fight, they would be stalked, chased and killed as prey not as a competitor, specifically tigers have been known to do this to bears during the winter while they're hibernating. However in a face to face fight the tiger is at a great disadvantage having to deal with the heavy club-like paws of brown bears which shatter the relatively fragile skull of the feline. In the end the only real predation that takes place is tigers eating bears while bears may get into fights with tigers I don't think they have the hunting skills to stalk one effectively.

So, you are another member of the type who thinks bear's claw is formidable. Sad but true, they are not. Have a good look at the grizzly's claws again. Are they something that can shatter the skull? To be accurate, they are capable of making some sratches on the skin of the tiger's skull! Who have seen a brown bear take on a tiger? No, that's something written on newspaper and some scientific journals: infotainment. Because, the reality is: Tiger is formidable for all types of bear, 600kg or not. The only thing of advantage for bear is its large size, and there's no reason why a softy brown bear would try to attck a tiger to steal its kills. That is highly fatal, and the point for that? Food! And the bear can get sufficient food from plants and carcasses found in the forest. No reason for taking on a tiger for prey kills, that's it. After all, bear is only bear,omnivorous. the lairweb is a stupid site that would not respond to my email regarding that stupid story. Note that,Siberian tiger is average, and gentle, but indochinese and bengal tigers that can kill very large wild cattles and break open the neck of water buffaloes with their sharp, powerful claws will just laugh at the mild-mannered brown bear if the bear wants to get a hand on their kills. But, one thing to note: Nothing is absolute. Sometimes a tiger(Siberian) just walks sliently away when a large brown bear approaches the kill scene. Why? Who knows? My best guess is that the animal is too small-hearted of a tiger ( usually an inexperienced tiger), or it's simply not hungry and so does not want an unnecessary fight.

Actually it's not the claws in and of themself that make them dangerous, just the weight of them and the bone and muscle around them that make their paws into maces that can shatter the relatively fragile feline skull, as was proved by some Californians who set up Grizzly vs. Tiger and Grizzly vs. Lion fights. In those fight the big cats would often come up against the bear, head on aiming to bite it's neck and instead get their head smashed in. Now that might seem to make it a win for bears, but these are far from natural conditions and play to the bear's habits more then the lion or the tiger's. As stated before tigers have been found to hunt down and kill bears, something which hasn't been returned to them, hunting wise there should be no suprise to find that the tiger wins out, fight wise it's also no suprise to see the bear win because of the way it's built and how it lives life. There are still to this day occational stories of big male Siberians lost to brown bears, the opposing cases of tigers hunting them are probably ommitted for they likly occur more often and aren't a species of such concern. Finnally the lairweb is a good site that has some of the best info about tigers on the web and it has been for a long time, the fact that they don't respond only means that the site, quite old now, isn't that actively maintained.

-Amur_Tiger

You made a good and constructive argument. I just want to add on something: In the natural habitat, bears hardly use their claws at all, as it has no strength to do enough damage. In fact, in all of the documentaries about bears, I never saw them utilize the claws, save for digging and wrestling. i owned about 80 DVD of wildlife documentaries, read many animal books, and have watched many others on diffrent channel, i never saw this once, except in the for-fun-only Animal face-off. Now, the muscles. Yes, the bear posesses good muscles, but they are nothing like that of a buffaloes 1200 kg or a rhino 2 tons. the sharp claws of the tiger, being about 9 - 12cm in length, can tear apart the muscles and thick skins of these animals,so i don't think tiger will have trouble with bear's muscles and weight. The only downside of siberian tiger is their weak ability in combating powerful preys. indian tigers have special tactics when dealing with much larger and dangerous preys, but not Amur tiger. So, when combating, i would say Siberian tiger has a little more chance to win than brown bear. One thing for certain: There is no such pit fight between old grizzly and big cats in which bears kill with a blow, that's so impossible. If a bear wins a tiger or lion, it must win by biting, that's that.

Certainly the Siberians don't have quite the same megafauna as their Bengal bretheren have but I'd be highly suprised to see that they would be incapable of bringing down of them down. I'd also like to know what you mean by 'special techniques'. Also their claws aren't actually meant for tearing through skin but for getting a good grip on their prey to prevent them from being thrown off. Finnally I would like you to explain why makes you think that pit fights of this sort have never been arranged and what makes you so certain that bears must bite to fight.

-Amur_Tiger

A Siberian Tiger can kill a cow with one swipe of it's paw. Excluding the claws, the sheer impact force would kill it.

-G

Good question Amur_tiger. About the special technique, i think it would be more fun for you to figure out for yourself, as I think you like tiger quite a lot ( your name says it, doesn't it? If wrong, I,m sorry). Forget about the bengal, they don't occur with brown bear, only with very large ungulates like elephant, thick-skinned rhino and wild cattles.While your arg about the tiger claw is true, it's not enough, claws are used for fighting as well. Fighting large animals, many times its size, the claws have been used to tear of the skin, because it's risky and inefficient to always attack with teeths. Elephant is the most prominent example. For small preys, the claws have been utilized as well, ex: procupine weighed about 18 kg, which sometimes lead to tiger's death. the tiger's claws are sharp, so no matter how thick or muscled the prey, it still can break open it. The bear, why it doesn't use claws? Because I have never seen it, though this is my 14th year of watching and reading animals. "Bear of the world", written by someone who live 40 years with brown bear, also accompany my conclusion, as does "living with the white bear", wriiten by a russian who live many years with Polar bear. If the claw is such a powerful weapon, the bear must have utilize it every so often, why waste it? i have seen brown bear bite myriad times, but not even once have i seen bear use claws to rain blows(forget about rain, even 2, 3 blows continously are so very rare). Wild alaska, the life of mammals, polar bear: shadow on the ice, and be the animal are recent bear documentary i collected, with the last one having brown bear fighting each other, they use teeth to kill, forepaws just to push. Lastly, pit fight of this sort has certainly been arranged, the bear perhaps won some fight, but the provider must make it more interesting by saying that the bear wins by clawing. I don't think it's possible to get a pic or a video of bear killing with paws, for it's not possible. In short, the myth that tiger is no match for large male brown is not true. Tiger is a match for bears of all sizes, to be objective. Bison is more than a match for any brown bear, so the 2nd myth, grizzly kills adult bison is also unrealistic.

I have studied tigers for 47 years and i have seen 11 Siberian Tiger vs Brown Bears Fights. The bear usually tries to push the tiger in order to make a bite but i have seen the tigers jump and knock the bear over and then biting them continuasly to inflict damage to their neck bones.

In one case i saw the biggest tiger i had ever seen killing the Kamachatka brown bear with just 2 blows. Now when you say the bear is over 3 times the size of the Siberian tiger you are wrong. The largest asiatic brown bear subspecies the kamachatka brown bear rarely exceeds 900lbs and the largest was only 991lbs (450kg) and on average they only weigh 230kg(506lbs) compared to the tigers average 227kg (500lbs). So now you know its not muscle by muscle.The biggest Siberian tiger i have seen was larger than the largest kamachatka Brown Bear i saw as the Tiger when tranqualized because he needed to be measured and cured of the wound he had suffered in a fight with another Tiger. I measured him to be 11 foot 8 inches and he weighed 402kg ( 884lbs) while the largest kamachatka brown bear i have ever seen measured 10 foot 3 inches and weighed rougly 355kg(781lbs). I have seen indian tigers kill bears easily and they truly eat bears if they can find one; therefore its the Tiger that usually kills the bear.

let me add one more thing: every where in the world, brown bear tips the scale at about 450-500kg. the reason why they reach 700 kg is because they overeat to accumulate energy for hibernation. that extra weight does not add any extra strength to the bears. So if you say a 680 kg brown bear in winter is formidable, it's only as formidable as another 450 kg bear in summer. Siberian tiger has no problem driving off brown bear from their kills. -S-

The lairweb homepage is definitively not reliable source to support your arguments. That homepage was fabricated with misinformations. When it comes to tiger vs bear, I have read a scientific paper claiming that tiger does predate on adult browm bear and none of these bears were killed during denning. However, the paper does not contain any details. Another thing I need to say is that siberian tiger never meets Kamchatka or Kodiak bear in wild. Anyway, I don't think that we should include the tiger vs bear question into our homepage here. -Kine-

It's much harder to kill bear in den site than in open air, especially for tiger's method of killing, so I agree with you on that. Kodiak bear, tiger never met, but don't forget that in winter, Russian brown bear has also been known to grow to as much as 720 kg in body weight, just as much as Kodiak bear. And for those who still believe that the bear's paw can do some magic, watch Grizzly man. there are alot more documentaries containing bear fighting scene, but this one is one of the most recent and easiest to find. After watching it, I am even more confident than before to say that with such pathetic fighting styles, the bear will never be a match for the tiger's strength, ferocity, speed and techniques. Its only trick is to rely on its size to scare the tiger. If it doesn't work, the bear must run for its life. But, speaking of size, a 230 - 250 kg tiger looks just as intimidating as a 400 - 450 kg brown bear, believe me or not.

Just a side note: In ancient times, China's kings had hobbies of big game hunting and pit fight, I have read a great deal on that. Brown bear was chosen as one of the pit fight and hunting candidate because of its sheer size. But the siberian, or Manchurin tigers, and the south China tigers too, have killed all the brown bears and other opponents in pit fights and have been observed to kill brown bears in the wild too, using a variety of techniques. One of the technique is so extraordinary that it has been studied extensively by martial art schools , most notably the Shaolin temple to improve their fighting techniques. Unfortunately, all of these documents are written in Asian languages, and as far as I know, none of them has been found in english. But anyway, todays we have found enough evidence on this matter to say for sure that tiger is the strongest of the Siberian forest. --S--

[edit] Name change

The Siberian tiger is no more. It is now officially known as the Amur Tiger since it doesn't live solely in Siberia, with only a small part of its current range being in siberia. The reason for it being called the Amur tiger is that it the River Amur runs through its territory. Shouldn't this page be moved to Amur Tiger and a redirect from Siberian Tiger and to mention this in the introduction. --chris_huh 21:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The Siberians tiger's range has never been solely in Siberia, but that never stopped it from being called the Siberian tiger. Not all terms are strictly taxonomical in definition. There is a PC movement to call the tiger an Amur Tiger, but this is (thankfully) not universally accepted. -12.144.227.129 17:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Release from captivity

The article states that Siberian Tigers must be taught how to hunt when they are cubs. Actually, according to the National Geographic documentary "Tigers of the Snow" tigers bred in captivity and raised without a mother seem to have natural hunting instincts and they don't miss a beat when live prey is released into their area.

That still dosen't make them capable of surviving in the wild I'm afraid. Last I checked the number of re-introduced tigers are limited to a few test cases that only proved that it was prohibitively difficult to get them to hunt successfully in the wild. Certainly there are instincts at play, but that alone isn't enough to have them survive in the wild, which is why it's so critical to protect those that are in the wild.

-Amur_Tiger

[edit] Wisents, crocodiles and pandas

In the section diet, says that wisents, crocodiles and pandas are part of the siberian tiger's diet. But as i say, wisents, pandas and crocodiles didn't exists in Siberia in nowdays. Tigers and wisents only coexisted in Caucasus and Northwest Iran in historical times, and pandas are exclusives of China. Crocodiles, as i say, don't inhabitts the cold seas and rivers of Eastern Siberia.

== Crocodiles and Tigers only co exist in 1 place and that is the Northern Chinese-Korean Peninsula and i personally have only seen 1 such fight between a tiger and crocodile where this huge tiger well over 600lbs killed a young crocodile and dragged it over 30m before eating it. The indian tiger ocassionally kills crocodiles but Siberian tigers and crocodiles rarely ever come into contact and crocodiles are not a Siberian Tiger's normal diet.

[edit] DMZ

I read that while Tigers are rare in North and South Korea, there have been a number of citings in the DMZ, which is effectively the best protected National Park in the world. Just for people's interest. Sad mouse 22:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title (Amur vs. Siberian)

This article seems to have been moved from Siberian Tiger to Amur Tiger recently, and with very little discussion. Is there some kind of evidence that "Amur Tiger" is the common name?—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 06:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The official name was changed a few years ago from Siberian to Amur. Siberian Tiger still redirects here but now the article name is more official Chris_huh^talk 13:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Changed by whom? I would have thought Panthera tigris altaica was the official name.—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 18:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The IUCN and other organisations have started listing it as Amur Tiger, since Siberian Tiger was too misleading. Panthera tigris altaica is the official scientific name. Amur Tiger probably shouldnt be called the official name, sorry. But it is accepted by these major organisations as the main English name for it. The reason why is that it is found in the region of the Amur River, and not so much in Siberia. Chris_huh^talk 19:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"The IUCN and other organizations..." What other organizations? You haven't provided a citation that the IUCN does so as official policy. Can you provide such a citation, and also one for each other such organization? Also, I'll point out that a Google search of the IUCN website reveals more hits for "Siberian tiger" than "Amur tiger." And "Siberian" is the overwhelmingly dominant common name used, and Wikipedia convention says to use common names. —Lowellian (reply) 20:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Misleading by whom? The name siberian tiger has been known for ages it has become the de facto name for this subspecies. It doesn't matter what it's called by a few people, for most, the siberian tiger is always the siberian tiger. We have grown to love that name throughout the years; it's now a fact of life. So the name siberian tiger on the article is perfectly accurate.

Siberia is a part of Russia, and northern Asia, right? The tiger was barely even found there, ever. But the region around the Amur River has always had these tigers. People will get to Amur Tiger from Siberian Tiger via a redirect but they will also realise that it is actually called the Amur tiger and not siberian. Surely wikipedia should have the most uptodate information, and not just call something what people called it many years ago for the sake of it. The subspecies is the Amur Tiger, not the Siberian, people are being taught that now as well. Chris_huh^talk 11:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Without a longer discussion, this really needs to move back to Siberian Tiger. Wikipedia does not use official names, but the name something is most commonly known as (i.e. South Korea not Republic of Korea). Without significant argument here, I'll move it to the proper title in a few days. WilyD 14:46, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It has been changed because that is it's name. When someone goes to Siberian Tiger they will be redirected to this (Amur Tiger) which will help to tell people that the subspecies is now being referred to as Amur. It doesn't make any sense changing it back to Siberian tiger since it is correct now. Chris_huh^talk 14:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that doesn't jive with the Wikipedia naming convention or normal english usage as a descriptive language. Adopting a name to change usage also contravenes WP:NPOV and is thus totally forbidden. WilyD 20:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It should be Siberian Tiger, not Amur Tiger, per Wikipedia conventions. —Lowellian (reply) 19:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saving tigers

I love tigers!!

More needs to be done to save these tigers. Within the next 5 to 10 years, Siberian tigers will be extinct if they don't recieve more help. They are still being hunted and their habitat is shrinking. If nobody if going to try and help these tigers as best as possible, with the exception of zoos, all the wild tigers will be gone. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.191.129.201 (talk) 14:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Physical Characteristics

Why was this description changed "The male Amur Tiger can weigh as much as 318 kilograms (700 lb), although in past years, scientists believed that these cats could weigh up to 350 kilograms (800 lb), a supposition based largely on the estimates of hunters. On average, a tigress weighs about 160 kilograms (350 lb), and a male weighs about 225 kilograms (500 lb). At these sizes, the Amur Tiger is the largest natural creature of the cat family, though not as large as the liger, a panthera hybrid generally only found in captivity. The largest captive Amur tiger was 3.7 metres (12 ft) long and weighed over 423 kilograms (932 lb), compared to the largest captive African lion that weighed 366 kilograms (806 lb). Apart from its size, the Amur Tiger is differentiated from other tiger subspecies by its paler fur and dark brown (rather than black) stripes." to the new one this old description was perfectly fine and quite interesting. TeePee-20.7 08:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)