Talk:Simon de Montfort, 6th Earl of Leicester

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Contents 1 Barons' Revolt 2 Burial 3 Coat of arms - Chartres 4 Secretly married 5 Amaury 6 "Falls the Shadow" by Sharon Penman 7 War with the King 8 Amaury's Claim - an opinion. 9 Repitition 10 Inbetween time 11 Wrong my friends, very very wrong 12 Vow of chasity?

[edit] Barons' Revolt

Erm, surely Baron's Revolt??? unsigned comment by anonymous user

No, it would be "Baron's" if only one rebelled. Grunners 16:18, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burial

Was his body taken by the monks of Evesham Abbey and buried before the High Altar? I remember reading that somewhere a long time ago.

I seem to remember than the grave was desecrated many years later, possibly at the Reformation.

I have now visited the site again and the interpretation plaque suggests that he was buried in a tomb before the High Altar. There is an artist's interpretation of the view of the scene. I am reluctant to actually change what is written in the wikipedia page without discussion. Could this be reviewed please? Songwriter 06:28 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There is conflicting testimony as to the disposition of his remains. Opus Chron. (Rolls Ser., no. 28), p. 18-20, says he was buried by the monks at Evesham, and that miracles were wrought at his tomb. Other chronicles state he was dismembered, with portions doled out to various places, his head (or head and hands) to the wife of Roger de Mortimer, then at Worcester Castle (Rishanger, Rolls Ser., p. 37). William de Newburgh (Rolls Ser., vol ii, p. 548) combined the stories, with the body cut up, dispersed, and all parts eventually returned to Evesham and miraculously rejoined, and then buried at Evesham. - Nunh-huh 18:33, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I believe what you are remembering is that he was decapitated (i think) and left to rot after the battle. it was the monks at the abbey who burried him. I also remember reading i can't remember if it was in J.R. Madicott's book, Simon de Montfort, or some other source that his body begame a place for pilgramages and there was a push by some to have him cannoized. I added it to the article as it was part of the whole mythos that surrounds him. If someone has access to the copy of that book could you look it up. I have to get my English history notebooks out and see if i wrote anything else about it down in class.FubarDac 16:48, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms - Chartres

The coat of arms of Simon de Montfort was a red field with a white two-tailed (lion?) rampant. A television programme about stained glass windows was showing Chartres Cathedral and there seemed in one of the pictures to be a depiction of that coat of arms. Could someone possibly check on that if visiting Chartres Cathedral please?

[edit] Secretly married

"Secretly married" here seems to imply that the King was not aware of the marriage until after the fact. Margaret Wade Labarge [Simon de Montfort, 1962] says that "the King arranged for the ceremony in his own private oratory"; a chapel adjoining his bedchamber. The wedding may have been a surprise to other nobles, but not to the King.

[edit] Amaury

Whatever became of Simon's brother, Amaury? There is nothing anywhere that I can find about why he would have given up his rights in England, or where he went from there. Was he more interested in France and its politics at the time, as Simon was certainly more interested in England?

And why would Amaury renounce any English rights? Did his brother convice him that under Simon's care and guile the title of Earl of Leicester could finally be made official by King Henry III?

Anyone who knows of any sources that might explain these things, please leave a comment. Thank you.

Armaury gave up his rights to land because they were petty holdings. They were both dispersed and not really worthwhile for him to pay attention to them. Simon made some weilding and dealing to consolidate lands and eventually his marriage was his big gain. See the book Simon de Montfort that is listed at the end of the article for more details. FubarDac 16:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Falls the Shadow" by Sharon Penman

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[edit] War with the King

Big chunk deleted here -was that intended?

[edit] Amaury's Claim - an opinion.

The law at the time gave all of the father's titles and lands to the eldest son, in this case to Amaury. He was well set up in france. Pursuing a rather tenuous claim to an English Earldom (having a claim was a requirement for the earldom, not necessarily a right)would have been a waste of time to him as he could not swear fealty to the kings of both England and France.

Simon would have offered his holdings in France in exchange for the elder sons claim to the English earldom. That would have made sense to Amaury as he was trading something he had no practical use for in return for something tangible.

For Simon, that was the easy bit. The hard work was still to follow. The earldom of Leicester had been given to another english Baron,(I believe it was the earl of Pembroke ?) who had several titles, the earldom of Leicester being a relatively insignificant one to him. Simon had to pursuade him to reliquish the title (probably in return for a large sum of money)leaving the claim vacant, and himself as a genuine contender. He then had to pursuade the king of England that his claim was the strongest and get the king to endow the title and its priveleges upon him. (More money involved)

Simon got what he wanted, he was a land holding earl in the English court. This was a huge achievement for someone who was not an eldest son. But the financial dealings inolved indebted him heavily and this dogged him for the rest of his life. A lot of his problems throughout his life were money related.

This is an educated opinion, it was long ago that I read Simon de Montforts biography but I think this sums it up pretty well.

[edit] Repitition

I have edited out a repition in the text in the section "War against the king", but (for some reason) was unable to login. If this was done in error, apologies. jim jacobs

[edit] Inbetween time

The article makes it sound as if he went immediatley from marrying the king's sister, to being hated by the King. If I am remembering correctly wasn't there a 6 year period or there abouts where he was governing in Gascony? And isn't that where a lot of his conflicts with the king came from? Can this be fixed by someone who has a source handy? FubarDac 16:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

De Montfort's marriage to Eleanor in 1238 provokes of course Henry III's anger and it was the beginning of the conflicts between them, but the essential cause for their animosity was Simon's service as royal lieutenant in Gascony (1248-1255)where he he ruled with cruelty. What is more, his activities there demanded extra money which were pumped from Henry's treasury. As a result, Henry had to spend excessive amounts of money for Simon de Montfort in Gascony and at the same time he was received complaints and grievances of his lieutenant's arbitrary methods. Ourania 16:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)RaniaOurania 16:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong my friends, very very wrong

There is an error in the 'Battle of Evesham'. Simon's forces most certainly did not kill "three for every one of theirs". In fact, Robert of Gloucester called it "murder of Evesham for battle it was none". If you don't believe me, look up page 111 of Battle, by R.G. Grant. The Battle was a massacre for Simon's forces, which were not only outnumbered 3 : 1 but also forced to charge uphill. Tourskin.

[edit] Vow of chasity?

"Eleanor had previously been married to William Marshal, 2nd Earl of Pembroke, and she had sworn a vow of chastity on his death, when she was aged sixteen, which she broke by marrying de Montfort."

Sex within a marriage is a form of chastity. Did she take a vow of celebacy or chastity? This needs to be cleared up? - 71.248.14.67 16:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)CourtDog