User:Sir james paul/AMA Desk

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This is where I handle my AMA cases. Important pages

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ownership_of_articles
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_resolution

Contents 1 Old Cases 2 Current cases 3 Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/January 2007/Grandmaster 3.1 Baylaqan 4 Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/December 2006/notmyrealname

[edit] Old Cases

• User:Sir james paul/AMA Desk/old cases page 1

[edit] Current cases

Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates/Requests/March 2007/Bksimonb

[edit] Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/January 2007/Grandmaster

Hello, I have to tell you that I can't stand impersonal messages. Wouldn't it hurt to do a little research on the involved parties before copy pasting messages? I have been contributing to Wikipedia for almost two years longer than you and have even written a featured article during that time, i'm quite familiar with all the rules and policies which I often familiarize others with. Why do you AMA guys always assume that the complaining party is sitting on a horse wih high heels boggles the mind. Please do your research before proceeding. The least you can do is read the entire talk page of the article.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:45, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You need to be a little more specific. What does Iranica say that we're contradicting? As it stands now I have no idea what you're talking about. Stop making generalizations, that sounds quite patronizing. Regards.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I can be more specific. I cited numerous sources, including Strabo, Kalankatuatsi, same Iranica article about Caspians, etc, which say that Caspiane/Paytakaran was also part of Medes and Caucasian Albania. You removed all of my edits [1], which were a result of hard work and research of sources. You removed all the quotes that I added to the article, and all the references. It is not acceptable. Grandmaster 17:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

As the diff clearly shows I have done no such thing. My version clearly states that Strabo said Caspiane was part of C. Albania. I removed the Azeri name of the province which of course is impossible since there was no Azeri language at the time of Paytakaran. I also removed your false assertion that Baylaqan and Paytakaran are the same when the sources you provided mention no such thing and they clearly state that they are talking about a city and not the province. Your missleading attempts to portray the situation as something which it clearly isn't is inappropriate at best.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Aha, that is of what you were refering to. Grandmaster is not saying the truth there, you should read the talk page before placing such stuff on my talkpage. Paytakaran refers to an Armenian province, much like Constantinople was Greek, Constantinople does not equal Istanbul. Grandmaster prejudicial view of the Armenians, will make him place every irrelevencies he could in encient Armenian towns and cities. He even wanted the incorporation of some Azeris term in the lead for a historic place which existed before the Azeris language even existed. Fad (ix) 18:17, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No need to start personal accusations, that won't help you. Mind civility. I cited my sources to support my edits, you cite yours if you have any. Removing sourced info is against the wiki rules, and you know that. Grandmaster 18:32, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Btw you initiated personal accusations. "They do this...they do that...invalid arguments etc.".Nobody has said there is anything wrong with those sources. The sources are fine. Your interpretation of those sources are not fine, if you don't like what they say, don't bother bringing them up, but you cannot change the substance. Where is your source for the Azeri language name for Paytakaran?--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 18:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, this is also why I said I rest my case. While he talk about civility, it is funny to see him accusing me of owning the article when him from anyone else has been blocked so many times for edit warring and article content dispute, when I have been here on Wikipedia for longer than him and never was I blocked for article related content. Fad (ix) 18:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Both of you have been blocked many times for incivility and personal attacks. Your block log speaks for itself. Yes, I have been blocked for 3RR violation, because I had to deal with numerous people undoing my edits. I cited my sources stating that the city of Paytakaran is the same as the city of Beylegan, which exist to this day in Azerbaijan. Therefore, Azeri language is justified. I added direct quotes from various authoritative sources, which you repeatedly removed. Now please explain why you removed a verbatim quote from Strabo: To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane? What was wrong with its inclusion and what does it have to do with my personal interpretation? I think this case may end up in arbitration, as the rule violation is blatant. Grandmaster 19:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Neither of us have been blocked as much as you have though, nor do we have recent blocks like you. Regardless, the Azeri language cannot be justified by any means. The city of Baylaqan cannot be justified by any means. Your inteprepation is the assertion that Baylaqan has anything to do with this province. The article is a about a province, not some city. I will not respond to your queries so long as you ignore mine. As for the quote, it was simple redundancy. Also it's out of context, if we're goign to quote Strabo than I want to see the entire quote and not the line that appeases you.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The entire line was there. You removed the quote of Strabo just because you thought it was a redundancy? And Paytakaran was both city and province. In fact, the province was named after the city. Originally the city of Paytakaran was the center of the province called Caspiane, named after the tribe of Caspians, but when that tribe disappeared, the province was called by its main city. I cited the sources supporting the statement that Paytakaran was called Beylegan in Islamic times. It is not my assertion, but sourced info. Grandmaster 19:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No it was out of context, not just redundant. Write an article about a city, this is bout the province! You are making up stuff, where are your sources claiming that Paytakaran was a city after which Caspiane was named? Where are your souces that claim that the city of Paytakaran was the center of the province of Paytakaran? Do you realize Paytakaran is an Armenian word meaning land of wood? For the last time, any and all information about the city is irrelevant.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

As for blocks, the last time Fadix was blocked on 6 January 2007. And neither of my blocks exceeded 24 hours, while both of you were blocked for longer periods and for more serious offences, such as trolling and incivility. I think it is not worth discussing any longer. Grandmaster 19:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, the block that exceeded 24 hours was a mistake and was reversed a minute later. You have the most serious block, one for disruption which was initially indefinite...--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 19:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

No, most of my blocks were done by the same administrator; I had received emails by two other administrators telling that the block was unjustifiable. You were the reason of the longest block, for the exact same attacks which you have directed against me. The other block was as an answer to someone who calls Wikipedia a mad house and call articles trash, the person having imposed the block imposed it after I have reported to him (the same administrator who placed the block which another administrator openly said he sees no blocking material there and two others privately) my own incivility. I have never been blocked for article disruption; I maintain the 2RR and even 1RR most of the time. From all of my blocks, only two were justifiable, one of those the one on which I have reported myself, the other was meant to cool me down after I had been angered that nothing was done against a racist disruptor. It is funny that you bring my blocks, when you very much know that incivility is the only argument you can bring, when I have never ever been blocked for disruption, for 3RR or anything regarding article content, and that the block which followed your report of my incivility was answered from my part documenting incivilities you directed against me which were worster. Fad (ix) 20:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

3RR is not such a serious offence. Many people, including Eupator himself, were blocked for the same. As for the disruption block, it was merely a misunderstanding, and was lifted as soon as I e-mailed the admin. It was imposed just because I spoke with one of Iranian users in Azeri language, which the admin did not understand. But the issue was resolved almost immediately and was not anything serious. So enough about blocks, let’s get back to the issue. So far I have not received any answer why Strabo and other quotes were removed from the article. I don’t understand how the Strabo quote is redundant when it is directly related to the history of the region? I cited numerous sources stating that Paytakaran was the center of Caspiane/Paytakaran. They were all deleted. If you write the article about the province, why should you not mention its capital, which was the city of the same name? Grandmaster 05:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

You have not provided satisfactory answer to any of my requests. You are dodging my questions. It strikes me that you are obviously baiting by your constant repetitiveness. Show me a source that says the city by the name of Paytakaran was the center of the province of Paytakaran. Where does it say the province had a capital by that name? Where is it? As for the block, your long block history speaks for itself. No need to justify them.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 16:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

3RR, IS a serious offense, it endanger the intergrity of an article. Fad (ix) 21:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I did that countless times, but you are still in denial. Once again, check this source, it is a quote from the Armenian historian Draskhanakertsi:

После смерти святого Трдата нечестивый второй Санатрук,* родом из дома Аршакуни, которого Трдат поставил правителем города Пайтакаран,** взбунтовался и сам возложил на себя корону.

** Пайтакаран — город, центр одноименного наханга, близ современного Орен-Кала на Мильской равнине. В 338 г. Пайтакаран «стал временной столицей Албанского царства, здесь находилась резиденция мазкутских Аршакидов. (Армения по «Ашхарацуйц»-у, с. 88).

Следуя неправедному его повелению, те варварские северные народы* убили поставленного епископом Алванка** блаженного [65] отрока Григориса*** из рода св. Григория, затоптав его конями на поле Ватнеан.**** Святое тело его перевезли и упокоили в гюхе Амарас,***** что в Малом Сюнике.****** [2]

The footnote says: Paytakaran – city, the center of nahang (province) of the same name near the modern Oren-kala in the Mil plain. In 338 Paytakaran became a temporary capital of Albanian kingdom, the residence of Mazkut Arshakids was located there. Grandmaster 17:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where the dispute is being discussed, so I will just post here. GM's source Hewsen states that Paytakaran was on Arax's right bank. Baylaqan was on its left bank. This alone shows that they are not the same city.

Iranica merely states there was a city Baylaqan built in 6th c ad, and it was also called Paytakaran. It does not say that the city was the same Paytakaran that was the capital of the province. The capital Paytakaran had been around before 6th c, so yet another proof that it cant be the same city.--TigranTheGreat 02:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hewsen does not say that Paytakaran was on Arax's right bank, he says that the district of Bagawan belonging to this province was located there. And there are 2 different Iranica articles saying that Baylaqan is Paytakaran. Grandmaster 05:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Herodotus, Strabo, and other classical authors repeatedly mention the Caspians but do not seem to know much about them; they are grouped with other inhabitants of the southern shore of the Caspian Sea, like the Amardi, Anariacae, Cadusii (q.v.), Albani, and Vitii (Eratosthenes apud Strabo, 11.8.8), and their land (Kaspiane) is said to be part of Albania (Theophanes Mytilenaeus apud Strabo, 11.4.5). Whether or not they belonged to the Median empire is not clear. According to Herodotus (3.92.2), they, together with the Pausicae, Pantimathi, and Daritae, were included in the eleventh nomos of the Achaemenid empire under Darius I. This region later was attached to Media Atropatene and Albania in turn.

To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared.

BAGAWAN (Baguan or Ateshi Bagawan), a district of the land of Kaspiane (Arm. Kaspk, later Paytakaran) lying along the right bank of the Araxes river and corresponding to the northeastern part of Iranian Azerbaijan.

This really does support Grandmaster's view. Prove me wrong. --James, La gloria è a dio 02:29, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Herodotus says nothing baout Caspiane being in Albania. Strabo says that, at the same time he contradicts himself by saying that Caspiane is in Armenia. Reconcile that...--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 02:34, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Strabo does not say that Caspiane belongs to Armenia. He says that it was conquered from Medes by king Artaxias, who lived about 200 years before Strabo, which does not mean that it remained in Armenian possession ever since. It’s the same if some source claimed that Ukraine was part of the USSR in 1977 and you claimed that it was part of that country in 2002 as well. By the times of Strabo the region changed hands again, that’s why Strabo says in present tense that Caspiane belongs to the country of the Albanians. Grandmaster 05:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Would you agree to got to mediation if we can not decide on something here in a month or two? The cases at MedCab are usualy solved. --James, La gloria è a dio 02:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Also do you want 2 advocates working on this? --James, La gloria è a dio 02:38, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I do agree to any mediation and involvement of any number of third-party contributors. Grandmaster 07:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay just skimming through I am not seeing any discussion of the content on the article itself, rather than engaging in edit wars which are highly counter productive...I recommend that you discuss possible changes on the said talk page. This is the only real way to get this down, I am already seeing sparks fly, try your best to remain Civil. I understand that this is a content dispute, but what you need is sources, someone please give references of the truth, that is the first step. Please discuss, that in my mind is the only way to get anything done. Correctly. Arjun 02:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

If you feel as if you can not remain civil take a break from this. I think if you remain civil then this case will someday be resolved. Everytime you say something uncivil you are only making things worse. Also I am going to get a lot more people into this case. I think that it will make it go by even faster. Peace. --James, La gloria è a dio 03:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Sir, Strabo states that both Albania and Armenia had regions named Caspiene, which means that caspiene was larger in area than Paytakaran. Iranica further states that Strabo puts the borders of both countries along Kura. P. was south of Kura. Clearly, Strabo puts P in Armenia.

By the way, what is AMA? American Manhood Augmentation? Thanks.--TigranTheGreat 04:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Strabo does not say that both countries had regions called Caspiane. He refers to the same territory and says: To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared.

It is clear from this statement that Caspiane was part of Albania at the times of Strabo, as he speaks in a present tense. He also mentions Caspiane in another place, where he states that king Artaxias conquered Caspiane from Medes, but Artaxias lived about 200 years before Strabo, so Strabo describes events of the past. The fact that Artaxias conquered the land from Medes does not mean that it remained part of Armenia ever since. It is the same as saying that if Georgia was part of Russia 200 years ago, it is part of the same country now. What happened between the times of Strabo and Artaxias is described in another source:

Pompey then rearranged the political geography of the east. The exact details of the changes and their chronology are not always clear. Some were changed after Pompey and the young Tigranes fell out and after Parthian intervention. But the upshot was that by 59 BC Syria and Phoenicia had passed to Rome, Sophene to Cappadocia, and Adiabene to Parthia. Lesser Armenia went, probably, to Brogitarus, son-in-law of Deiotarus king of Galatia, and Caspiane to the Albanians.

A. E. Redgate. The Armenians (Peoples of Europe) ISBN-10: 0631220372

Grandmaster 06:01, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baylaqan

Gm, I want to end the Baylaqan issue once and for all. Be honest now! You have been claiming all this time that Beylagan is the same as the city of Paytakaran in the province of Paytakaran. Don't deny this you said this at least a dozen times in the last few day alone, justifying the use of Azeri name and a whole bunch of other nonsense. Here's Hewsen's map of Armenia in the fourth century showing the city of Paytakaran: [3]. Do you see where it is? I'm not saying you were doing this in purpose or anything no, just admit that you were wrong and in turn we can move on with potential concessions.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 15:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this is the first time you actually presented any reference at all. I never claim anything that is not supported by sources. I have two quotes (from Bosworth and Chaumont) explicitly stating that Paytakaran is the same as Baylaqan. But Bosworth says that Baylaqan was located at the junction of Araks and Kura, and I also have a number of Armenian sources placing Paytakaran at the same location. This map appears to locate Paytakaran at a different place, but it’s still hard to tell by the map as there’s an additional branch of Araks shown on the map, which does not exist nowadays. I would prefer a written reference to that, but still we can admit that there might be conflicting views on Baylaqan/Paytakaran issue among the scholars. What do you think? Grandmaster 17:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Btw, this map supports my another point, Kaspiane = Paytakaran. Grandmaster 17:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

When have I claimed anything without referencing something? Anyway, i'll get back to Baylagan shortly but your response is promising. Actually there is no issue regarding Caspiane. The sources do not contradict eachother. There was a province known by Greco-Roman authors as Caspiane. When Artaxias conquered the Medes and added Caspiane to Armenia or re-added it to Armenia it became known as Paytakaran. We don't know whether Paytakaran had the exact same borders as Caspiane. We know that Greco-Roman authors continued calling Paytakaran by the designation of Caspiane. The name Paytakaran is Armenian (wood+land) and it encompassed the Caspiane mentioned by Greco-Roman sources, wholly or not we don't know. The solution is the following, we compare the borders given for Caspiane by Strabo or other Greco-Roman sources with the borders given for Paytakaran by Anania Shirakatsi in Ashkharhatsuits.--Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Do we ignore Hewsen? He says that Caspiane is the same as Paytakaran. Plus, Strabo says that Caspiane belonged to Albania, and it was after the times of Artaxias. Grandmaster 18:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that we simply state what the sources say, i.e. that the region was at various times part of Medes, Armenia and Albania. It is sourced info. As far as I know ancient sources don’t provide clear borders for Caspiane. And even if the borders of the two don’t coincide, it does not mean that they are not the same land. The borders of states and provinces were not stable thru the centuries, except for islands, like Britain or Japan. The borders of France were different at different times, still it is the same state. My point is that comparing the borders would be an original research, we can only quote someone who did that. But we have a source that confirms that it was the same land, which changed name at a later time. I think this issue can be easily resolved if we only quote all available sources and include all existing professional views. Grandmaster 19:50, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Caspiene is not Paytakaran. Even GM's article on Casps makes this clear:

CASPIANS (Gk. Ka‚spioi), name of an ancient people dwelling along the southwestern shore of the Caspian Sea, whether north or south of the river Kura is not clear.

http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v5f1/v5f1a019.html

So, Caspians could very well be living north of Kura (as Strabo makes it clear). P. was south of Kura. P was called Caspiene, but doesn't mean all of Caspiene was P. Strabo states that the Armenian Caspiene (i.e. Paytakaran) was populated by Armenians, while Albanian caspiene (north of Kura) was populated by Kasps. Obviously, Kasps lived north of Kura, their land and the surrounding area was named Kaspiene, while Armenians lived south of Kura, and their part of Kaspiene was called both Kaspiene and Paytakaran. --TigranTheGreat 00:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Euro's map makes it very clear that B is not P. The modern juncture of Arax and Kura is clearly shown on the map--it's way far from the city of P. the river on which the city P. is located is not the main course of Arax, and it's clear from the map.

Also, neither Bosworth or the other Iranica source state that Paytakaran and Baylaqan are the same. They merely say that Baylaqan was called Paytakaran. That's not the same. There could be 2 Paytakarans.

As for Hewsen equating Kaspiene and Paytakaran, he does no such thing. The ending letters of a label do not mean the border of a province. The label merely shows the approximate general area called Kaspiene.--TigranTheGreat 00:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

That’s personal interpretation of a source, i.e. original research. The source does not say that Caspiane is not the same as Paytakaran. And wasn’t it you who wrote the current version of the article? You yourself included the statement that Caspiane is the same as Paytakaran. Grandmaster 05:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I was just informed that AMA stands for Member's Advocates. So, Sir here is GM's advocate--i.e. his representative. Clearly he is going to take GM's side. So, what are we doing here?--TigranTheGreat 00:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope. That's not the case. "Members" refers to Wikipedians. And we're all Wikipedians here. James is on everybody's side. He just wants the dispute resolved, and resolved in a civil manner. It keeps Wikipedia running smoothly. Toward this end, James has contacted me, out of the blue, to help. I don't know him, and I don't know any of you. And I can assure you, I don't know much of anything about the topic being discussed. But I'm here to help, if I can.

I've read Paytakaran, and I've skimmed the discussion on it's talk page, the AMA request for assistance, and this page. The theme that keeps coming up again and again appears to be "sources".

Therefore, we need to gather to one place the specific statements which each of you wish to be in the article, and indented under each statement, the sources supporting it.

Toward that end, I've created the subpage talk:Paytakaran/Statements and sources. As a suggestion, here are some simple rules:

1. Everybody gets a section on the subpage. Create a level 2 heading with your name.
2. In your section, write the statements of fact which you would like to see included in the article. One statement of fact per paragraph.
3. Indented under each paragraph, post the references which support it, down to the page number.
4. Don't edit anyone else's section.
5. Post all discussion with respect to the items on the subpage on Talk:Paytakaran (you can use the backlink at the top the subpage to get there). This way, anyone else who comes across the article and wants to participate in this endeavor, can easily do so.

Once the statements of fact and their references are in place, we can begin a critical analysis of each, starting with looking up and reading each and every reference.

I look forward to seeing each of your statements of fact and references. Sincerely,   The Transhumanist    04:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The discussion on Paytakaran has been split up all over the place. Please resume all further discussion back on the article's talk page where it belongs. Thank you. I hope to see you there. Sincerely,   The Transhumanist   

[edit] Wikipedia:AMA Requests for Assistance/Requests/December 2006/notmyrealname

Comments Below the line

---

Hello, and thanks again for taking this on. As I explained in the request, this is about whether there should be a mention on Mitt Romney's page that his paternal great grandfather, Miles Park Romney, was a polygamist with five wives. I think it should, some of the other editors think it shouldn't. At first it was included as part of a trivia section, but the entire section was then deleted as per Wiki policy. We've been hashing it out since on the talk page. I think it should go either in his family history, in the discussion on Gay Marriage (this is what I would prefer), or on some section related to the 2008 presidential campaign.

My argument is basically that 1) Miles Romney's polygamy is well documented and widely mentioned in the mainstream media; 2) several commentators have raised the issue in relation to Romney's stance on gay marriage (usually in response to his comments about the universality of one man/one woman marriage); 3) many commentators have included the fact in relation to his electability; 4) Romney himself frequently jokes about his faith's historic association with polygamy when discussing the gay marriage issue; 5) it is an interesting fact; 6) As a result of Mile's polygamy, he fled with his family to Mexico, where Mitt's father was born.

Most of the sources are on the talk page. You can find many other references by Googling "Mitt Romney Polygamy" or "Mitt Romney Polygamy Grandfather" Notmyrealname 22:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I am going to provide some links here once I have some time to. --Sir james paul 11:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted the deletions a couple of times with explanatory notes in the edit summaries. I then began a section on the talk page and gave extensive explanations to those who provided objections, including providing further sources.Notmyrealname 17:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello and happy holidays. No need to apologize for not giving this more attention right now. It's a busy time of year.Notmyrealname 19:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Just saw your comment on my talk page. I hope you might reconsider. This is not an active dispute in the sense that I stopped pushing the issue after I made the request for administration, and due to the fact that my edits had been reverted three times. I continue to believe that the editors who objected (many of whom are wp:spa) did so for POV reasons. The item fact in question is not disputed, and is frequently mentioned and commented on in the mainstream media on all sides of the political spectrum. The debate on the talk page had devolved into a "This is encyclopedic -- no it isn't" level, so I was hoping that an administrator might weigh in on the issue. You haven't really given me any reasons as to why this shouldn't be included, and your earlier comments indicated that you thought there was merit to my argument. Could you give it a little more thought? Perhaps discuss it with some other editors that don't have strong feelings about the Romney page? How do you resolve an issue of whether something is encyclopedic or not? Thanks for any more time you can put in on this issue.Notmyrealname 02:29, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The Associated Press just ran an article called Romney family tree has polygamy branch. I started a new thread on Romney's talk page. Would you care to weigh in? I think the press, across ideological lines, have decided that this is a relevant fact. Thanks.Notmyrealname 02:16, 25 February 2007 (UTC)