Talk:Slavic toponyms for Greek places

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article needs a lot of work (and I hope and wish that the introduction will be as NPOV as possible). Keep in mind that around 1912, we had Greek language, Bulgarian language, Serbian language etc. talk to +MATIA 00:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Great list but change order 2 Identification of languages 3 No references 4 German WP 5 Greek toponyms for Slavic places 6 Absurd article - needs more severe warning 7 Verification, sources, corrections, explanations, recommended reading etc. 8 Scans from Todor Simovski's book "The inhabited places in Aegean Macedonia" etc. 8.1 Lists of Greek inhabited places

[edit] Great list but change order

This is a fantastic resource. However, I would suggest that the format be changed to make it more useful. The Greek names should be listed alphabetically in the left-hand column, with the Slav names on the right. --Damac 08:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Identification of languages

I agree with the previous editors -- this is very useful. A few comments:

• Some of the names listed here, though they were no doubt used by the local Slavic-speaking population, are not Slavic at all. Karatepe, for example, is clearly Turkish (= black hill).
• It would be helpful to identify the region of the individual places, by Ottoman sandjak or Greek prefecture (νομό).

--Macrakis 16:36, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert in this, but it's not beyond possibility that the Slavic and Turkish names for particular places were the same.

While it would be interesting to structure the list according to Ottoman regional divisions and modern Greek administrative units, I think the list should be kept alphabetical. Maybe the info you suggest could be added in later in additional columns.

Although no source has been provided, I propose that:

• the list be kept in its entirity
• it be listed alphabetically according to the Greek names and wikified
• checked individually for accuracy. --Damac 22:32, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

The current article is entitled "Slavic toponyms for Greek places". I don't think this is quite accurate as a title. In fact, it is the names of these places before Hellenization. Some of these names are of Slavic linguistic origin, some Turkish, some Albanian, some Aromanian, etc. Some places had multiple names -- see for example Voskopoja. Many did not, and would have been called by the same name (with minor phonetic differences). Indeed, some have kept their names of non-Greek origin, e.g. Κόνιτσα (< Alb), Κοζάνι (< Slav).

So yes, of course, the Slavic and Turkish names may well have been the same for many places. --Macrakis 22:57, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No references

No references, so I removed a potentially misleading caption for now based on User:Ancientmacedon's edit history. Alexander 007 22:20, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd be surprised if Ancientmacedon's list is accurate. Alexander 007 22:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

This list has been copied again and again within the Internet without any real attempt of verification. Does anybody know what the original source is?

The least on could do is to check these names using http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp

20:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German WP

The folks at the German WP have done a lot of work that we should take advantage of here, with names in Cyrillic and Greek characters and also checked some villages in maps. There is work in progress there, see: de:Liste mazedonischer Bezeichnungen griechischer Orte   Andreas   ^(T) 23:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek toponyms for Slavic places

I hope that the person who began this article will start a new one: Greek toponyms for Slavic places. Politis 13:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, once the list is complete, we'll have one and can re-name the article accordingly. --Damac 20:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL...! Politis 13:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I had noooo idea that so many Slavic toponyms were of Turkish origin. Presumably this means that most of the Turkish toponyms in Turkey must also be Slavic (even if they are Turkish...). Conversely, it could be that our Slavic language contributors cannot distinguish their brass from their copper. Politis 12:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Absurd article - needs more severe warning

I agree that such an article can be useful. But this article gives no indication about its sources. We do not know if the Slavic appellation is correct or invented (either by some unscrupulous editor or picked by an honest editor but from some official propagandist). We do not know if it is a variation of other appellations. And if you look at detailed German military maps of 1914, or read Celebi or Greek chroniclers, you realise that some of those Slavic names do not make sense. It needs to be classified as a draft article and its parameters and limitations clearly articulated. Politis 13:17, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Verification, sources, corrections, explanations, recommended reading etc.

1. The best source for verification on this subject is the two volume book by Todor Hristov - Simovski (born in the village of Izvor, later renamed as Pigi near Gumendje-Goumenitsa, present day Greece) "The inhabited places in Aegean Macedonia" which includes ALL of the places with their history, characteristics, geographic location with their old names prior to the toponym and personal name changes imposed by the Greek government in the mid 1920's after the anexation of Macedonia in the Balkan wars. Also the exact dates of the names changes are recorded together with Greek administrative document's numbers for each place respectively and displayed in this book
for the first volume the ISBN 9989-9819-4-9
for the second volume ISBN 9989-9819-6-5
The book also includes villages that doesn't exist anymore for example such as Babchor whioch was destroyed by the Hellenic Army in the Greek Civil War.

Now for those greek nationalistic individuals that may protest that my suggestion may be biased since the book is published in Skopje, I suggest them to read the book "The Macedonian Struggle" by Germanos Karavangelis (ΑΡΧΕΙΟΝ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΚΟΥ ΑΓΟΝΟΣ ΠΗΝΕΛΟΠΗΣ ΔΕΛΤΑ 1. ΓΕΡΜΑΝΟΥ ΚΑΡΑΒΑΓΓΕΛΗ, Ο ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΚΟΣ ΑΓΩΝ (ΑΠΟΜΝΗΜΟΝΕΥΜΑΤΑ) ΕΤΑΙΡΕΙΑ ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΚΟΝ ΣΠΟΥΔΩΟΝ ΙΔΡΥΜΑ ΜΕΛΕΤΩΝ ΧΕΡΣΟΝΗΣΟΥ ΤΟΥ ΑΙΜΟΥ, ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΗ, 1959), where he uses the old toponyms such as Konomladi (Mitre the Vlah his greatest enemy and he was from Konomladi for example), Rulya (for present day Kotas), Statitsa (where Pavlos Melas was killed, present day Melas), Zelenich, Zagorichani (later renamed as Vasilyas where he organized the famous masacre in 1905 etc.) and many more.
If Germanos Karavangelis who was a greek nationalist is not good enough source for such sceptical persons from Greece, then..I really don't know how we r going to discuss anything normally in the future.

2. QUOTE from a previous commentator:
Keep in mind that around 1912, we had Greek language, Bulgarian language, Serbian language etc.(end of quote)
RE: Exactly. For example what Greeks call Giannitsa, Turks call Yenidje Vardar, ethnic Macedonians or u may say Bulgarians (matter of dispute) call it Pazar etc.

3. the administrative division of Greece and the admisnitrative/territorial division prior to Greek annexation of that part of Macedonia should be taken into account too, obviously the author is not aware of it completely!
Namely, people get confused: how come there r places with same (old) names in a same prefecture ("nomos" in greek, we say "okrug"), not knowing that the "nomos" is furtherly divided in "eparhias"(dunno the english equivalent, we say okolija) and then "dimos"- municipalities, we say "opshtina".
Particulary in the list provided, there is a village Simvoli formerly known as Banitsa that belong in the nomos Serres. On the other hand Goce Delchev was killed in another Banitsa (Karye) in the same perfecture. Two places, their old names are same and there r in a same prefecture! Confusion can be avoided if we say that Simvoli-Banitsa belonged to Zihnenska okolija (eparhia Filidos in the nomos Serres) while Banitsa-Karye where Goce was killed to Serska okolija (present day eparhia Serron in the same nomos Serres ).

4. I have bought a tourist map of the Prespa area (and surroundings) in Greece in a bookstore in Thessaloniki, where beside the names of the inhabited places, the old names are also displayed in brackets, for example Psarades (Nivitsi), Statitsa (Melas), Agios germanos (German) etc.
This map has been published by:
Anavasi, Mountain Editions, 34 Dragoumis Str., GR-11528 Athens, Greece ISBN 960-91045-3-3
The map was made in cooperation with the Hellenic army geographical service
You can see the picture of the map HERE: [1] (external link)

5. in the article here just few inhabited places are listed, otherwise the complete list is endles (all the old names prior to the changes in the mid 1920's are recorded not only by the science but also by the ordinary people and passed to new generations so they r not forgoten at all for which I can witness from my trips to Greek Macedonia and meeting non-greek locals)

I think (actually i did) give you more than enough sources and evidences both from Greece and Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), I dont want to hear any further complaints :)) --Vbb-sk-mk 01:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Lokk at this Greek weather site that lists the villages of the Florina Prefecture with their Greek and Slavic names (in Greek characters) and with 2001 census population figures. http://meteo.ptolemaida.net/diafo/xoriaflorinas.htm. Here is another site with the original names of the stations on the Thessaloniki-Bitola railway line: http://www.gregoriou.itgo.com/photo5.html   Andreas   ^(T) 01:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

RE: Thanks for the link Andreas, it's quite interesting and I would say very suprising to see these old names on a greek website having in mind that the Greek state passed very strict laws on renaming the toponyms as well as strict sanctions against individuals who would use the old toponyms. Such state acts are for example: "On renaming villages, towns and cities" (admninistrative gazette no.332, 17 September 1926; then the act. where seveere sanctions incl. paying penalties and imprisonment were ordered for those who would not obey the act on renaming and who'd use the old name (published on 13 november 1927 in the administrative gazette 287, transformed into act no 3,342 of 12 dec 1927 adm. gazette no.303/17 dec. 1927), Im typing this quickly looking at the book and at the monitor simoultaneously excuse me for any typing mistakes--Vbb-sk-mk 01:59, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Vbb, could you give us more information about Simovski's Book? In particular, what are the sources used in the book? Can we rely on the scientific standards of the investigation? What are the academic credentials of the author? In the only review that I could find, it is written that "although the terminology used does not depart from the national recipies of the official history writing of FYROM, the numeric data shown are extraordinarily accurate".

REPLY:
1.The list of sources in Todor Simovski's books includes: French, Greek, Macedonian (FYROM), Bulgarian and others. Typing the complete list or perhaps scanning it and processing with OCR software would take me some time, that's why if someone wants to check that quickly I can take snapshots with a camera of each page of that section, upload the pics somewhere with an external link to them placed here, so u can download and read (or OCR them if possible?) Also military headquaters maps have been used: french, austrohungarian, bulgarian, greek (they r listed among the sources).
2. The book includes a summary in english which i could also find partially published on the internet, so maybe a snapshot of this may be useful too? or maybe I can try to find it complete somewhere else on the net.
3. The author's biography in the book unfortunately is not in english, Im not sure if I can translate it 100% accuratelly, but I would give a try.
4. Yes, the terminology ""'does not depart from the national recipies of the official history writing of FYROM" as the terminology in the greek official history books does not depart from the national recipies of the official history writing in Greece.
Why should source published in Skopje be always met with suspicion about it's reliability? just because it may not coincide with the greek POV? Isn't that online review maybe biased in favor of the greek POV? I see Bulgarian sources can be used for the VMRO article without being questioned about the "academic credentials" or anything, also if the article Greek Struggle for Macedonia could exist until recently without any single reference and full of superlatives and "immortalization" of the "makedonomachoi"(check version history), then I give myself the right to suggest Simovski's book at least as some further reading related to the subject. No more double standards. BTW I wonder why no one questioned the reliability of the map published in Greece in cooperation with the greek army that I suggested also? or the book by Karavangelis, where he uses the old toponyms. I suppose they r "reliable by default", only Simovski is a problem? :)
5. As I said before, in the book there is an explanation of the laws of the Greek state on the renaming of the inhabited places , as well as a date of renaming (and in some cases re-renaming). the legal acts are quoted, the dates of implementation are also given as well as the sanctions. Alongside with each place's name, the date of its renaming is given and some administrative/bureaucratic data(the date of the order, the official gazete etc..)
In some cases there was no renaming (for example "Lehovo"), in some cases there was no renaming but instead the toponym was given a greek form by adding "N" or "S" at the end.

6. also there are non-greek toponyms (slavic, but also turkish, aromanian,arvanite etc.) in Peloponese, Thessaly, Epirus, Sterea Ellada etc. Some have been changed according to the laws, but for some reason some have been forgoten or ignored by the greek government and they r still in use. In the summary Simovski gives an overview to this phenomenon too.

Another source that among other things mentions the old names before the state changed them + it includes some maps:
Other Balkan Wars: A 1913 Carnegie Endowment Inquiry in Retrospect, Publisher: Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, 1993, Washington, DC ISBN 0-87003-032-9 External link: HERE

And just btw, nothing scientific, but I have personaly visited many of these places. Passed from generation to generation the old toponyms are preserved among the local non-greek population. --Vbb-sk-mk 08:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

---

If you find your sources reliable and reputable, would you be willing checking this article as well as the corresponding German and Bulgarian articles? (Click on the entries in the language list on the left sidebar of the article).

RE: yes i will do it these days.--Vbb-sk-mk 08:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

There is also: Simovski, Todor. Atlas na naselenite mesta vo Egejska Makedonija = Atlas of the Inhabited Places of the Aegean Macedonia. Skopje: Zdruzenje na decata begalci od Egejskiot del na Makedonija: Makendonska kniga, 1997. ISBN 9989-9819-2-2.   Andreas   ^(T) 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

RE: yes, the Atlas is another book. this edition that you mention as I see is published by the Association of children refugees from Aegean Macedonia (from the Greek civil war 1948)--Vbb-sk-mk 08:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Have you really been to those places in Greece, Vbb? Perhaps. The older members of the local population, irrespective of their linguistic backgroud, know the different names of their villages. Many are attached to those names. What drives people angry and suspicious is insinuations and arguments by FYROM/ROM activists such as, 'the old name of the village is a Slavic/Macedonian name, therefor you are either a "Macedonian" or you are a Greek invader, and therefor this land belongs to FYROM/ROM'. The harsh truth (for a few irredentists in Skopje) is that the 'Slavonic' culture in Greek Macedonia is different from that of FYROM/ROM, as different as that between FYROM/ROM and Serbia, or, if you like, of Bulgaria. Todor Simovski (or Theodoros Simos, as he, himself, would also introduce himself) loved his place of birth and his Greek education, but he was strongly anti-nationalistic and made quite a few mistakes. Politis 11:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

REPLY to Politis:

Yes, actually I have been to those places Politis. among others Florina (Lerin), Kastoria (Kostur), Amyndeo (Sorovich), Edessa (Voden), Aridea (S'botsko), Giannitsa (turkish: Enidje Vardar macedonian-fyrom: Pazar), Pella (Postol where Krste Misirkov was born, it's just behind the arch. site), Skydra (Vrtikop), Naussa (Negush), Veroia (Ber), in Thessaloniki (Solun) many times, Polykastro (tur. Karasule mac.-fyrom: Regunovec), Goumenitsa (Gumendje), Kilkis (Kukush), Serres (mac-fyrom: Ser, Bulgarian: Syar), Drama, Kavala (this is just to name a few), also south across Katerini to Litohoro (Olymp and all that) and further south through Greece.

Would you like me to testify in front of a UN tribunal? No problem beside other facts I had my camcorder with me then, I have videotapes where people stating clearly that they speak "macedonian" language and claimed that they are ethnic "macedonians". They didn't say "we r greeks but slavophones because slavs came and 'slaviziced' us", they neither said "we r bulgarians", but clearly and undoubtely "we are macedonians" or "send greetings tyo everyone there, in Macedonia" etc..etc.. One very older person became quite emotional when i told him i was from Skopje and said "There were no Greeks here, only Macedonians and Turks!" (this was in Aridea), another younger guy (30+ in Amyndeo) told me has a same name like me (of course officialy he has another, greek name), I met a very old guy that fought in the civil war and there were plenty of other interesting situations, but I was just a curious backpacker so of course u understand it was not a scientific research.
Some of them have visited or frequently visit FYROM/ROM and some of them have relatives acroos the border (refugees from 1948). I talked to them also about history, how they live in greece and all.
Speaking of your claims that there is a differece between the slavic culture over there and in ROM/FYROM, I completely disagree with you. the traditions, the folkore, plenty of folksongs, folk stories and all that ethnology is same (with some local/regional differences), the language is the same (of course different dialects exist and they are same as dialects that we have in ROM, for example the dialect in Florina is same as in Bitola (just few km. across the border), while the dialect in Aridea was like that one we have in Tikvesh region (as Kavadarci, Negotino are near). Now of course, if you compare how we speak in Skopje and how some peasant speaks in Goumenitsa, well of course there will be a difference. Do the peasants somewhere in Crete speak same as some urban guy from Thessaloniki?!
In Thessaloniki I was very suprised to find this CD (and I bought it) with tri-lingual title "Beloto pole do Beloto More- ΛΕΥΚΟΣ ΚΑΜΠΟΣ ΠΛΑΙ ΣΕ ΘΑΛΑΣΣΑ ΛΕΥΚΗ - White field down to the White sea" , published in Greece by AVLOS Editions (belongs to a cd collection, and this is cd no.3) by the singer Kostas Novakis - ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΝΟΒΑΚΗΣ (from village of Koufalia, Thessaloniki), the cover says: Slavomacedonian songs/ Slavomakedonika tragoudia), includes songs from areas of Edessa, Kilkis, Thessaloniki, Gianitsa etc. with area of origin of each song written in the booklet using both the old and the new name. Inside the booklet there r also greek translations of the song lyrics. Singer's biograpphy is in the booklet too and his contact info (email and phone). The songs which include lyrical and revolt songs from the times of ottomans ("Mitko Vojvoda"-Mitko the chieftain) are 100% completely same as we have in our folklore, actually i know some of them from previously before I even knew about this CD, it's nothing different or "foreign" to us.
So here are some informations about the CD:
1. One Week Ago – In Greece the First CD with Macedonian Songs Came Out (Dnevnik newspaper, 11.05.2002)
2. Kostas Novakis was a special guest on the 'Meetings of Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia' that is held every year in the village of Trnovo near Bitola in ROM/FYROM and is attended by aegean macedonians from around the world (Aus, USA, CA etc..), as well as from Greece. A text from the magazine "Makedonsko sonce"/"Macedonian sun"
There are greek online shops that sell this cd (and the others from the collection), but to avoid advertisement accusations Im not posting a link, instead do a google search on ΚΩΣΤΑΣ ΝΟΒΑΚΗΣ and in eng. Kostas Novakis.

You mention Todor Simovski, QUOTE: Todor Simovski (or Theodoros Simos, as he, himself, would also introduce himself) loved his place of birth and his Greek education, but he was strongly anti-nationalistic and made quite a few mistakes.

Politis, I dont know what u r talking about? All his life in his books he accuses oficial Greece for terrorising the Macedonians by killing, expeling,forcing them to speak greek, changing their toponyms and even personal names (If your name was for example Krste, youwould become Stavraki). U really confuse me, are you sure we are speaking about a same person??? Have you actually read his books?? Well of course he loved his birthplace (which as I said was renamed from Izvor to Pigi by the greek state). He was fighting in the WWII and greek civil war and he was a communist officiall holding various high position in the communist organisations, incl. NOF which previously was known as SNOF (Slavo-macedonian national liberation front). yes, he was certainly not a ultranationalist ,actually he critized Greece all the time for being ultranationalist.
I've never heard he mentioned his greek name as u say and I can't really say he loved his greek education seeing how bitterly he condemns oficial Greek policy towards his people. There are many refugees here from the greek civil war here who were not allowed to return and their properties have been confiscated by the greek state. I suppose he was one of those refugees.
as I mentioned somewhere above, I'll scan or something the complete english summary from that book.
Here is some incomplete version (or maybe because it is from previous editions):
[2]
[3]
Give me some time for the complete one as I dunno exactly how to solve it, by OCR, or making snapshots or for worst-retyping on a pc. also i'll give the bibliography as promised. --Vbb-sk-mk 02:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, (to whoever did it) it is against the rules to edit out other people's comments. It seems to me Vbb, that you are on the verge of taking personal issue with a contributor and turning it ad hominem and reading more than there is actually written. That is not necessary and, I am sure you agree, dialogue is far more constructive. However, amongst the 'personalised stuff', there is sound and useful information. As for TS, that is how he introduced himself, in superb Greek (and on tape). As mentioned, he disapproved of nationalists (be they from Thessaloniki, Sofia or Skopje) and directed his criticism strictly towards the authorities. Finally, I do not uderstand what point you are trying to make but I always remain open to suggestions and opinions. Politis 12:07, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Without any prejudice about the personal opinions of the contributors I want to remind everybody that this is not a blog but a page for improving the article (and improvement it needs). In particular, we have to make sure that the place names included in this article are based on reliable, reputable and easily verifiable sources.   Andreas   ^(T) 11:46, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

To Politis":
I didn't touch anyone else's comment, except mine one (cause I forgot to sign it).
The 'point I tried to make' (as u ask) is that I wanted to reply to:
1. your highly sceptical comment about 'whether I really have been to those places. perhaps...' and to clarify things better. The whole thing started when I mentioned (just in one small sentence) that 'BTW I have been there'. You asked for further info- I gave it, so thats it.
2. also I wanted to reply that I disagree with ur claims about the difference between the 'slavic cultures' in greek Macedonia and of ROM/FYROM. The songs, the folk dresses, the chikldren tales, the proverbs, the village celebrations, the traditional architecture, the whole ethnology is same. The mentioning of the CD was just sort of 'ilustration' of the story BTW
3. and also I wanted to reply that I disagree with your comments about Todor Simovski. His own books are here beside me, there are plenty of places in the book where he talks about 'attrocities of the greek state against "Macedonians', 'forcible name and toponym change', the 'chauvinist policy of Greece' etc. Let me remind that his Atlas is published with the help of the "Association of the children refugees from Aegean Macedonia".
Of course he knows greek language quite well as he couldnt have any other education, greek language was/is mandatory as Greece doesn't recognize authentic national minorities on its soil.
For his own birthplace Simovski says the following in the book: "until 1924 the village was inhabited solely by 'Macedonian population'", that "the greek collaborationst forces PAO burned (the village) in WWII...and later the Greek monarchist authorities burned the village again in the Greek civil war in 1947" page 59, vol 2 and there are plenty of other accusations of attrocities and war crimes of official Greece in the book. I still dont understand are we talking about the same person. Also have in mind that HE DIED in 1998, so when this TV interview that you mention was made? What im trying to say is: yes I do agree he was not a nationalist, I do agree he was moderate and he was peeved only towards the authriities not the greek people of course. he declares himself as an ethnic Macedonian, his people as ethnic Macedonians and I doubt that "he loved his greek education", I mean he left Greece after all to live in ROM as many Greek civil war refugees did.--Vbb-sk-mk 17:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

To Andreas: Of course this is not a blog for presenting and discussing personal matters, but Politis requested certain clarification and further info to my previous statements so my humble personality motivated by altruist motives wanted to provide that as soon as possible. After all everything we talk about here IS actually connected to the main subject. Thank you for your understanding. Further useful info on the main subject "The toponyms" of the article coming soon, as Im busy at the moment dealing with other things too. --Vbb-sk-mk 17:51, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scans from Todor Simovski's book "The inhabited places in Aegean Macedonia" etc.

As I promised here are the scans.:
Please read the explanation first.

1. some scans from Todor Simovski's book "The inhabited places in Aegean Macedonia", which I consider as an accurate source for the topic
for the first volume the ISBN 9989-9819-4-9
for the second volume ISBN 9989-9819-6-5
As the book is quite "fat" it cannot be placed well into a scanner for Optical Character Recognition so these are actually quick camera snapshots which were later processed into b/w. Sorry for the bad quality, but they r readable (if u r really interested of couyrse). They are in big enough resolution, download them and zoom to read.
The files include:
- The introduction of the book in english where the name of the image files is intro_x, where x is the number of the page of the introduction, which doesnt correspond to the actuall page number in the book)
- The Bibliography (the list of sources that the author have used, which includes french, greek, bulgarian, rom/fyrom and other sources), the name of the image files is bibliography_x, where x is the number of the page of the bibliography.
- The subdivision list of Aegean Macedonia with both the old and the new perfecture's and "eparhias" names in greek. - A map of the administrative division of Aegean Macedonia (with the old names of the administrative units) - The author's biography (only in macedonian-fyrom) which I can translate later.
- Author's portrait

2. Scans of the tourist map of Prespa and the surrounding area that I mentioned published in Greece in cooperation with the Hellenic Army Geographic service which includes both the old and the new names.
Publisher: Anavasi, Mountain Editions, 34 Dragoumis Str., GR-11528 Athens, Greece ISBN 960-91045-3-3
Publisher's website

My provided pics include:

- The map (front)
- The map (back)
- The map inside
- The bi-lingual (english & greek) tourist booklet that goes together with the map. in the greek language section the old names prior to the changes in the mid-1920's are mentioned.

THIS IS THE LINK TO ALL THE PICS: CLICK HERE for the photo album to see or download the pics and let me know once u do that.
I supooise the pics are not good enough for OCR, but if someone has nerves to work on them and correct the text afterwards (as ocr software is not 100% accurate)- please do give a try to process them.
--Vbb-sk-mk 04:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. This is a good start and the first time I see real sources on this topic. You show a list of village chronicles. Is there a correspondence of Greek to Slavic names in the book? How else can we know which Slavic name corresponds to which Greek name?

Note that Simovski books and his maps are also accessible in some North American and European public libraries including the Library of Congress. Click on the ISBN number for further details.   Andreas   ^(T) 13:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad it can be useful. In response to your question: of course greek place names are written beside all the old slavic (or turkish or vlah etc.) names in the book, as well as in the index of the toponyms. I uploaded today some example pages of the book:

CLICK HERE FOR AN EXAMPLE PAGE FROM THE BOOK
CLICK HERE FOR AN EXAMPLE PAGE FROM THE INDEX OF PLACES
CLICK HERE FOR ANOTHER INDEX EXAMPLE
CLICK HERE FOR AN EXAMPLE OF ONE MAP FROM THE BOOK
All of them are in good enough resolution, zoom and read them.

Now, some info to avoid any confusion:
there are toponyms that were changed with a:
a) a completely new name (example Rulya to Melas, Zhelevo to Andartikon etc.)
b) a greek translation of the name (example: turkish Ekshi-Su to Xinon Neron)
c) a greek pronunciation form by adding typical greek prefix/suffixes to non-greek toponyms (the village of Buf firstly was renamed to Mpoufion and later renamed again this time to Akritas)
Also, there are cases where toponyms were not changed becasue:
a) the original toponym was interpretted as it is of a greek origin by the commision that worked on this and was left to remain the same (sometimes correctly, sometimes it was by mistake)
b) in the case of Lehovo, which is absolutely slavic non-greek toponym, the old name was left to remain as the locals, unusually mainly Albanian population protested. In some litterature this village is written as LehovoN (to sound 'more greek')
c) rarely, expecially in the south there are places that had always greek names all the time without any slavic or turkish equvalent.
d) some new built places that have greek names from the very start without any slavic or turkish or any other equivalent
Also I should note that Simovski, beside his symphaties for the ethnic Macedonian/FYROM POV, he as a non-ultranationalist presents the ethnic population of each village correctly: if the village was lets say mostly with 'etnic Macedonian' or authentic greek or vlah or albanian population respectively, he says so without trying to enlarge one population vs. another. he also gives info about the ethnic changes (colonisation of refugees from Asia Minor, Pontus, east Thrace) etc
For every village, existing or no more existing (destroyed etc.), there is the geographical location. You will also note that the year when the village was renamed is listed --Vbb-sk-mk 19:59, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a fifth possibility: e) A Greek name that already existed was chosen as official or a name that had existed in the past (especially in antiquity) was reinstated. Some notable examples are Sparti, Patra, Thessaloniki etc.

Regarding the final ν/n in Lehovon or Metsovon, this letter was not added to sound more "greek" but to comply with Greek grammar. Note that with the official introduction of Dimotiki in 1976 most Greek place names were renamed again, this time from Katharevusa to Dimotiki: Ἀθῆναι became Αθήνα, Σέρραι became Σέρρες, Μέτσοβον became Μέτσοβο, etc. This renaming was implicit and automatic with the official introduction of Dimotiki.

[edit] Lists of Greek inhabited places

To the editors of this article: Be careful _not_ to use the Greek names as they appear in the book but the Dimotiki names used today. As an aid use the tables of Greek place names at el:Κατηγορία:Διοικητική διαίρεση νομών Ελλάδας.

Note: do not use the first nation-wide three lists in this categories but only the lists by prefecture. Also, do not use the names of the municipalities because they are in the genitive case. When you open the list, skip or hide the table of contents.

Example from el:Διοικητική διαίρεση νομαρχίας Αθηνών:

-- Δήμος Αθηναίων --

Δ.δ. Αθηναίων -- η Αθήνα [ 745.514 ]

So the name of the place is Αθήνα and not Αθηναίων.   Andreas   ^(T) 21:41, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In response to the statement:
QUOTE: e) A Greek name that already existed was chosen as official or a name that had existed in the past (especially in antiquity) was reinstated.(end of quote)
It's not that I forgot about this posibility, I can agree with it to some extent. But take for example Edessa. According to what is written in wikipedia, the name is from Ilyrian origin, while Simovski says that according to some scientists it is probably of Phrygian origin . Anyway, the origin of this ancient city's name is not greek, but it was anyway reinstated in the place of Voden. So things are not so simple just to say that they've brought back "real ancient greek names".
Speaking of "Katharevusa vs. Dimotiki", I do understand what you are saying, but there is inconsistency on this even today in Greece! I have many examples like books, public transport tickets, tourist brochures etc. Also I have purchased some maps recently published in Greece and I can probably upload images together with corresponding isbn's and all here (on one u see Σέρραι, another says Σέρρες etc. also Lehovo and the twin Lehovon are there)
Speaking of LehovoN and MetsovoN, which as you say were renamed solely for gramathical purpose, what about the village of BUF(present day Akritas) which was firstly renamed to MPOUFION (Bufion)or Bogacko which was renamed to Vogatskion or Drenichevo as Dranitsion or Visheni to Visinea or Manyak to Manyaki and all that far before these language and grammar reforms? I think personally and Simovski in his book claims that it wasn't really the grammar what was behind that.
To support my claim better, as Simovski mentions and it is widely known here (among other things due to presence of refugees from what we call Aegean Macedonia), when personal names were forcibly changed by the greek state there were cases when a) names were translated to greek or b) a completely new name was given or c) cases when greek characteristics were added to the original name so "it can sound more greek" and thus be acceptible for the authorities. Example for the 1st case: someone's name was lets say Bogoljub ("he loves God" as "Bog" means God), it was changed to "Teofilos", Blagoja (Blagovest=The Good news=Evangelie) to "Evangelos", Krste (small Cross) to "Stavraki", Paul Johnson would then be Pavlos Ioanopouloss etc. But not every local government official in some remote mountain village was an intelectual so as a result of that there are people who had original names like Bozhinov that ended as "Mpozinis" and the imaginary Paul Johnson would be Paulos Johnsonis exactly as I said "put anything just make it to sound 'greek'". Of course you may disagree with all this, but as it is related to the subject I needed to mention and it was implemented both on toponyms and people. If Im not wrong the river that goes through Edessa is still called VodaS which is definetly not 'an old ancient greek name' but rather a poor attempt to "hellenize" a non-greek word "voda" which simply means water (Edessa itself was named Voden, water-city, wet-city etc.)
About some of the instructions for working on the article provided above , I must admitt I didn't understand everything what u were trying to say.--Vbb-sk-mk 06:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The added n in Lehovon was to fit the noun into the Greek declension system (something which does not exist in the Macedonian/Bulgarian language(s), as they are analytical), thus giving us Lehovon , Lehovou, Lehovōi etc. If you can speak Serbo-Croatian, you should be familiar with the concept. Also, what you call "renamed" places were not necessarily renamed from a Greek point of view, e.g. I highly doubt that Florina was ever called "Lerin" in the Greek language. As for Thessalonica: it was founded as "Thessaloniki", the Romans called it "Thessalonica" or "Salonica", the Byzantines called it "Thessaloniki", the Turks called it "Selanik" and the modern Greeks called it "Thessaloniki". The only "renaming" that took place was "Selanik" > "Thessaloniki". "Selanik" is not the same thing as "Solun", is it? It is quite like Bitola, which was called "Manastir" by the Turks, and then was renamed to "Bitolja" and then to "Bitola". About Simovski, I would treat his views with extreme caution - his good friend Mr Popov is called a "nationalist" by the Helsinki Monitor [4], and Mr Simovski is not what I would call a non-partisan source. Also, I am quite confused over what change you want to make to the article. --Telex 09:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

We are not concerned here about "partisan" or "non-partisan" but about "reliable". Read the text of Wikipedia:Reliable sources, the partisan issue appears only marginally:

A particular source which aims to have credibility beyond a particular POV is generally regarded as more reliable than one whose audience is narrow in terms of its ideology, partisan agenda or point of view.

If you have experience in scientific work, you would know that even in the so-called exact sciences, most researchers are "partisan" (Galileo was a partisan of the heliocentric system). Our question is: are the names of the villages reported by Simovski real, or did he make them up? I would suppose that they are accurately reported, irrespective of the political opinion of the author. When it comes to Simovski's description of historical events, Politis' concerns are justified, but this is irrelevant for the present article.

Re: Edessa, it was called in Greek Βοδενά before the Ancient name was reinstated. The word Edessa itself is also derived from Water.

Re: Changes to the article:

• adding the prefecture and province for better identification
• correcting the information according to the sources we now have (we did not have any sources before)
• Unifying the spelling of the Slavic names. I would suggest to avoid the Macedonian/Bulgarian spelling issue (ja/я, шт/щ etc.) and using either English (ya, sh) or "Croatian" (ja, š) transcription.
• All Greek names should be in the nominative case. For example, Bugarievo should be Karavia and not Karavias. (Καραβιάς is the genitive of Καραβιά). Simovski has Καραβιά. (I hope this explains the instructions Vbb was wandering about.)

Just for the record: a similar renaming campaign was done in South Tyrol after WWI, see [[5]] and Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige. There were of course many others.   Andreas   ^(T) 14:09, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There are many other complications as well:
1. Fundamental problem: the toponyms before the renaming were mainly what we would call slavic (Republic of Macedonia-FYROM historians claim toponyms in macedonian language, nevermind) but there are also purely turkish toponyms as others already noted (lets say Kara Koy- "Black village" without known slavic equivalent), also there r some Vlah/Aromanian toponyms (for example Gramushta for Gramos) etc. There are toponyms for which we don't know the origin exactly. Also as I already said there were cases where there were several different names in different languages for a single inhabited place: tur.Enidje Vardar, mac./bul. Pazar for present day Giannitsa or mac./bul. Ber, tur. Karaferia, present day Veroia
Is it possible and what do you think about renaming of the article to keep all the toponyms incl. the slavic, turkish ones? Something like "Non-greek toponyms in Macedonia_(Greece)" or "Non-Greek toponyms in Greece" (which would include Peloponesse, Epirus, Thessaly etc.) or "Toponyms in Macedonia_%28Greece%29 prior the State Act on renaming cities, towns and villages... etc.. etc.." or "Toponyms in Greece prior to the renaming.. etc.. etc.."(too long but...). or we should concentrate only of what we already have here?
2. Are the terms "prefecture" and "province" accurate translations for the greek administrative units "nomos" and "eparhia"? There's a lot of inconsistency on this on wikipedia. When searchuing for 'Macedonia Greece' u can see results such as "macedonia province in Greece"(but then Macedonia is not "eparhia"?!). In Simovski's book there are "districts" and "counties". Also, I think that if we write the present day greek adm. units, their coreseponding non-greek names must be mentioned too for easier identification. For example: Banitsa, Zihnenska Okolija, Serski Okrug = Simvoli, eparhia Filidos, nomos Serres.

Offtopic: Can someone recommend a good OCR software and also a good software for character encoding convertion (and/or translitteration) that would change everything processed in OCR in cyrilic to latin alphabet? I have already used such utils but any recommendation of new software is welcomed --Vbb-sk-mk 22:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)