Talk:Sling (weapon)

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Contents 1 ellipsoidal projectiles 2 Armour penetration 3 Maybe we should move "Kestros" info to its own page 4 Melting projectiles

[edit] ellipsoidal projectiles

Re: "The reason why the almond shape was favoured is not clear: it is possible that there is some aerodynamic advantage, but it seems equally likely that there is some more prosaic reason such as the shape being easy to extract from a mould or that it will rest in a sling cradle with little danger of rolling out."

An ellipsoidal projectile will 'roll out' of the sling in much the same way an American football is thrown by a competent quarterback - the sling spins the bullet, enhancing range and accuracy. As a side-benefit, the bullet would hit point-first, maximizing the force of the striking surface. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ochre24 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 2006 October 18 (UTC)

The problem of rolling out refers to a bullet that is resting in a sling cradle. A cradle is typically diamond shaped and will wrap around a bullet such that a long elipsoid is unlikely to come out but a sphere could roll out of one of the open ends.

Just what happens when an ellipsoidal projectile is thrown has been much discussed on the slinging.org forum. Some experimenters certainly reported spinning, but could not confirm that it spins in the way you suggest -- ie point first. Personally, I find it hard to see how that would happen. Gaius Cornelius 13:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

From personal experience, the spin imparted to a projectile is determined by the orientation of the sling, which in turn is (mostly) controlled by the slinger. Proper technique allows one to impart a football spin to a projectile with good repeatability; improper technique allows the sling to twist and the projectile may spin any which way. --Swwright 20:33, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armour penetration

RE: "Ancient authors seemed to believe, incorrectly, that sling-bullets could penetrate armour... ... it seems likely that the authors were indicating that slings could cause injury through armour by a percussive effect rather than by penetration."

Citation needed, indeed.

A lead projectile, shaped like an American football (spinning - using the same physics), hurled with great force (multiplied by the action of the sling), hitting a bronze helmet or breastplate, *would* penetrate said armor, and easily. I believe that there was confirmation of this on a cable television program (on either the Military Channel or History Channel). Early firearms, using round shot with only slightly-higher flight speeds, could penetrate iron and steel aromor.

Discussion? Confirmation? Mythbusting? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ochre24 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 2006 October 18 (UTC)

The ancients certainly did belive those things about lead sling-bullets although I don't have a citation to hand. I don't know of any ancient evidence that sling bullets actually did go through armour. Sling wounds are rarely mentioned, Julius Ceasar tells of a badly wounded centurion hit in the face although that was not through armour. I have seen lead sling-bullets failing to make much impact on reproduction shields, although I appreciate that that is a bit different to armour. If there has been some experimental archeology, then I would be very interested to hear about it although that is unlikely to settle the issue - compare with the argument that rage over the longbow! There are some figures for velocities of comparable weapons in "The Balistics of the Sling", I don't have my copy to hand, but from what I can recall even the earliest firearms achived much higher velocities than the sling. Gaius Cornelius 13:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Found the reference I had in mind: Thom Richardson, Ballistic Testing of Historical Weapons Royal Armouries Yearbook, Volume 3 1998, p50-52. Various sling and bullet combinations achieved about 30 m/s and were completely resisted by a 2mm plate. A medieval handgun with a 50gr charge which produced a velocity of 180 m/s and was the least effective of all the guns tried. An arquebus with a 50gr charge produced a velocity of 378 m/s and easily penetrated two 2mm plates clamped together, the same weapon with a 90gr charge achieved 520 m/s and just failed to penetrate a 6mm steel plate. Gaius Cornelius 20:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe we should move "Kestros" info to its own page

The section on the "Kestros" here has more info than on the actual Kestros page. All we really need is a brief mention of it, and "Kestros" needs a lot of the info that can only be found here. If somebody's better at cutting and pasting than I am . . .

[edit] Melting projectiles

A citation has been called for, concerning this sentence: "In the latter case we may imagine that they were impressed by the degree of deformation suffered by lead sling-bullet after hitting a hard target." I have found several sources of information concerning this, two of antiquity and one modern. I will give the citations and then ask how best to add them, because I am rather new here...

Lucretius, in his "On the Nature of Things", says (in William Ellery Leonard's translation): "A leaden ball, hurtling through length of space, / Even melts." Virgil also says something about this in the Aeneid (John Dryden's translation): "Him when he spied from far, the Tuscan king / Laid by the lance, and took him to the sling, / Thrice whirl'd the thong around his head, and threw: / The heated lead half melted as it flew; / It pierc'd his hollow temples and his brain; / The youth came tumbling down, and spurn'd the plain." These two translations are available at The Internet Classics Archive (http://classics.mit.edu/index.html).

The modern source is a member of an internet forum devoted to slinging. I know him only as "AjlouniBoy" which is his username at Slinging.org. He has himself slung an lead fishing weight against a concrete block; the impact seriously deformed the projectile and generated enough heat to be noticeable. His message on this subject is at http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1130967387.

So, how do I get this information into the article? Just start writing? Add footnotes? Thanks in advance for your advice and assistance! --Swwright 01:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Swwright: Thanks for your contribution. Wikipedia encourages users to be bold. So, do please go ahead and have a go. Experienced editors will be pleased to help out with any problems you may have. Footnotes can be a bit complex, you probably will need some help with that. Gaius Cornelius 18:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your encouragement, Gaius Cornelius. Bold it is, then! I added three footnotes about lead glandes melting in flight, citing Lucretius and Virgil and a modern slinger of my acquaintance, and a new "Footnotes" section. I also removed the {{fact}} tag. --Swwright 23:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)