Talk:Soviet-Lithuanian Treaty of 1920
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[edit] References
Could I suggest contributors use at least minimal bibliographical rules in referencing part? M.K. 10:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Sure. What do you mean ? --Lysytalk 10:49, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- For start - add pages... M.K. 10:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lithuanian military supporting Soviets
[edit] Allowing for free movement of Soviet forces on Lithuanian territory
- As if they would have asked - that area was already in hands of Poland, so it would be strange to keep Red Army outside territory, that was granted for Lithuania during peace talks would be rather strange.--Lokyz
[edit] Military support of Russian offensive against Vilnius
It was rather symbolic only, as Lithuanian forces arrived on site in 14th July in the morning and the fighting only continued for several hours, as the Bolsheviks prevailed and entered the city in the evening. --Lysytalk 10:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- As for formula aiding Bolsheviks -isn't it rather an assumpion? Lithuanians might have rushed to take Vilnius before Bolsheviks arrive, and secure the city (assumpion for an assumption:)) It was a state capital after all, so I do not understand, why help Bolsheviks instead of having own intentions?
- AFAIK, there was an order for Polish troops to leave city for Lithuanians, not for Bolsheviks.--Lokyz 11:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes and no. Lithuanian military started moving only on July 13th, after having signed the treaty, so this was clearly a coordinated action. They arrived and started the fight on 14th in the morning. And indeed the Poles received the order from Warsaw to give up the town to Lithuanian forces, but not the Bolsheviks, but it arrived on 14th in the evening, too late, as the latter already broke through (and then installed Kapsukas and you know the rest of the story). --Lysytalk 15:31, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Poland attacked?
Other historians do state, that it was Poland army, who did attack Lithuanian forces. I cannot find any claim to support this in the ref given. Please quote the the part of the book that supports this claim. Thank you, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong link was given, i did correct that mistake, thank you for noticing. I've previously completely messed that up.--Lokyz 18:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way, as far as I understand it, it's again a matter of interpretation, who attacked first. Lithuanian forces tried to enter Vilnius, and the Poles defending the city stopped them (which probably means started shooting at them). So from LT POV that might seem like: "Oh, we were just travelling to Vilnius, our capital, and suddenly the Poles started shooting at us without apparent reason", and the Polish POV could be "the Lithuanians tried to enter the city and we stopped them". So, who attacked whom ? --Lysytalk 20:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Useful reference
A useful English ref I had time to look at again as I remembered it discusses this treaty: [Survival and consolidation: the foreign policy of Soviet Russia, 1918-1921 By Richard K. Debo, 1992]. Some highlights: Soviet were prepare to sacrifice Lithuania in 1919. March-May beginings, July. This mostly confirms what the article states, but it would be useful to replace non-English refs with English ones when possible.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would not think, that removing would be good - I'd suggest to double reference instead.--Lokyz 18:58, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, double is better.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I suppose Treaty of Tartu (Russian–Estonian) and Latvian-Soviet Riga Peace Treaty were also related with Poland?--Lokyz 20:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- I am not sure. There were lots of negotiations going on at that time; I know Poland hosted at least one regional conference (to which Lithuania was not invited), and Moscow held another one. Poland had signed various treaties with countries around it, but so had all of them. Thus I'd estimate majority of them were not related to Poland. The two above treaties were not related to Poland, I believe - the Latvian one would be 'kind of' related as Poland tried hard to sign Latvians to Miedzymorze, and didn't want them signing treaties with Soviets (but failed, obviously).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 21:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Polish interpretation of Lithuanian-Polish conflict
Just curious, maybe Lysy could provide an exact citation of Lossowski's statement on Lithuanians attacking Polish forces in support of Bolshevik invasion. I cannot find the book in Libraries near me. Polish language would be ok.--Lokyz 18:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
