Talk:Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

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	Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
	Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith is part of the "Star Wars episodes" series, a featured topic identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on July 15, 2006.
Article Milestones Date Process Result August 30, 2005 Peer review Reviewed May 10, 2006 Peer review Reviewed May 18, 2006 Featured article candidate Promoted October 15, 2006 Featured topic candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

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Archives Archive 01 (before May 2005) Archive 02 (May 2005–Jul 2005) Archive 03 (Jul 2005–Jan 2006) Contents 1 Claims of all-time box office record 2 Questions 3 Wikipedia 4 Question 5 Purple Lightsaber 6 Notable Firsts 7 Image 8 Title differences 9 "ROTS" 10 "Vandalism Alert" 11 Plot question 12 Nazi Germany Parallels 13 Section Format 14 "The Duel" merge 15 Cinematic and literary allusions references 16 On the new cast list 17 Section Format Deux 18 Trivia section deleted 19 On the caption 20 HOORAY! 21 Happy Anniversary 22 Han Solo 23 Original Theatrical Ending Compared to the DVD Ending 24 Cast Section 25 external links section 26 Orpheus? 27 Two Swift Cuts 28 The Massacre of the Innocents 29 Videogame 30 Intro 31 Superfluous Synopsis 32 T-shirt 33 Too much irrelevant data 34 Wrong image comment for the Battle of Coruscant 35 REACTION SECTION needs re-written 36 My problem with this article 37 Pic caption

[edit] Claims of all-time box office record

I deleted a claim that this movie is "the 12th highest grossing worldwide film of all time" with the explanation that, as phrased, the claim is too vague to be supportable. Judgesurreal777, without explanation, reverted to a previous version. I am restoring my deletion and respectfully inviting Judgesurreal777 to address these points:

1. The only citation is a link to another Wikipedia article - which the guidelines do not recognize as adequate sourcing.

2. The other Wikipedia article's ranking of ROTS is only on the non-inflation-adjusted list. The reference here does not specify that.

3. At the time of this writing, it appears 13th on that list - not 12th. Ribonucleic 21:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It was reverted because it got through FAC without being challenged, and people come by to existing articles all the time and attempt to take things out of the articles. Since you have added an explanation of your thinking, I think your right, that needs a citation and more specificity. I will help find one. Judgesurreal777 22:03, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questions

I've heard this was actually FILMED on HD film, not just converted onto an HD DVD. Is this true? Anyone know?

• ROTS was shot on HD digital cameras, not on film of any type. Film has a higher resolution than HD. The Wookieepedian 21:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia

OK, if Star wars is a fa than wikipedia is sooooooo nerdy. Richardkselby 02:38, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• You say that like it's a bad thing. :D The Wookieepedian 03:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

You say it like it is a good thing. Richardkselby 21:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Does it matter what the topic is if its treatment is detailed and balanced? -Toptomcat 21:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Minor quibble--in the section discussing parallels with the American Civil War, wasn't the Grand Army of the Republic a post-war Union veteran's organization? I thought the Union Army was not collectively called anything other than that, preferring each component army to be separately named (Army of the Potomac, Army of the Cumberland, etc.).

[edit] Purple Lightsaber

The article states that "Palpatine's lightsaber was the only one never seen in contact with a purple lightsaber. It was also the only one to come in contact with Mace Windu's lightsaber". As Mace Windu has a purple lightsaber this is contradictory. I will change it to the only lightsaber seen in contact with a purple lightsaber, but there may a better way of putting this. Any ideas? Wheatleya 20:49, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Firsts

This seems to just reiterate a few things mentioned above in the article and bring forward nothing new. Maybe it should be removed? Wheatleya 20:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

To the Wookipedian, my image was better than the one now in use. The current one looks like Obi and Vader are doing some kind of dance. The other one actually showed them locked in mortal combat.--Codenamecuckoo 10:52, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

But the one I have up there makes the scene look more epic. :D The Wookieepedian 11:07, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

To the Wookieepedian, why did you take my image of Anakin off? Jadzia1 19:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title differences

I've seen several different versions of the titles for the film series, IMDB example "Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith", I took the time to find the different articles on the Star Wars official website that announce each title in full, the official site refers to the films as "Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith" note the placement of the dots. Personally, I think the IMDB usuage is best since it clarifys each point, i.e. This movie is a Star Wars movie. It's Episode III. The title of the episode is Revenge of the Sith. But my main point here is that I do not believe that the current title is correct. The Filmaker 02:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

• I have found various other sites that refer to the film as "Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith". The Filmaker 02:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Alright, that's it, the Academy Award nominees list has refered to it as "Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith". So I am going to move this title and the rest of the titles to follow suit. The Filmaker 02:32, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, it looks like we'll have a ba-jillion redirects to fix. ;) The Wookieepedian 06:22, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
      • And a bajllion articles links to fix. ;) The Filmaker 16:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
        • Shouldn't the articles be named with a dash between the episode number and the subtitle? Ex. Star Wars: Episode IV - A New HopeThe Wookieepedian 22:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
          • I did point that out above, IMDB lists it that way. But the official site and the Oscar nomination ballets refer to it without the dash. Personally I like the dash. But it's not about what I like. It's about fact. The Filmaker 04:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
            • The official site refers to the films as Star Wars: Episode No. Episode Title (no italics for "Episode No."). So should we follow that too? Chris1219 10:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
            • I don't think so, but could you provide a link? The Filmaker 23:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
            • Here's one link [1], you can see it on the first line.Chris1219 12:05, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
              • I see, I looked up a few more articles on the site and you're right, they refer to it with the italics. I'm not sure why that is, frankly it looks a little weird. But I don't think we're allowed to do that with titles, and we should just stick with the current title. The Filmaker 22:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The links are now all screwed up. Why change over trivial mattar such as hyphens?--PatCheng 01:22, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

• It's not that trivial. This is an encyclopedia. It's supposed to state the facts. Would it be trivial if someone added another L to Michael Keaton's name? The Filmaker 07:12, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Wikipedia titles may not be perfect for some titles because of restrictions, like ipod is at IPod. Jedi6-(need help?) 17:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah, but that's for technical reasons, the correct title is iPod. But Wikipedia won't allow the the inital letter be a lower case I. The Filmaker 03:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have brought up the issue of the movie titles once again at the Star Wars WikiProject discussion page. All interested participants are invited to make their views known there. -- wacko2 04:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "ROTS"

Uh.. just a suggestions.. maybe it should be changed to RoTS? ROTS is a bit negative ;-) Dan 18:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

• Nah, that's the way everyone (including diehard fans) refer to it. Only now have I actually realized that it's the plural version of rot, as in rotting corpse. But still, that's the facts, ma'am. The Filmaker 23:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Dan, ROTS is a bit negative.

        Ciao,
         Adolph172

P.S. Visit my page sometime, if you have a question.

[edit] "Vandalism Alert"

Someone put this in:

Meanwhile, General Grievous goes into hiding in an apple pie and gets burned by the filling so goes to Utapau, where he makes contact with Darth Sidious who tells Grievous to relocate the the pie to the Mustafar system so he can torch it. As Sidious tells Grievous about that the war is nearing its end, he too claims that the pie's death was a necessary loss, and that Sidious himself will soon have a new pie, "one far tastier and made with a cherry filling."

Amusing, yes, but let's keep that out of the main article. I have removed it, but there may be additional vandalism in here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheCoffee (talk • contribs) 16:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC).

You say that as if it isn't an appropriate moniker for this movie...205.188.116.202 01:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh come on that one is one of the best i've ever seen.

        Ciao,
         Adolph172

[edit] Plot question

I know this talk page is supposed to be for discussing the article, not the movie, but still I'm asking this question. Why did Dooku kidnap Palpatine/Sidious, his own Sith master? Did he not know Palpatine was Sidious? That seems hard to believe. Was it a plot they hatched together to trap Obi-Wan and Anakin? If so, I assume Dooku understood the point of the trap was to kill the two Jedi, but what was Palpatine's real motivation? To have Anakin kill Dooku? To let Anakin and Dooku duel to see which of them was really worthy of being his apprentice? I guess that seems most likely, but the movie doesn't make it clear at all. Anything about this in the Expanded Universe? Angr (talk • contribs) 10:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Grievous kidnapped Palpatine, not Dooku (though he was probably ordered to do so at Dooku's urging, who was in turn being instructed by Sidious). The entire purpose was to (a) garner further support in the Senate ("aww, he got kidnapped... he obviously needs more powers!") and to draw in the Jedi, both to test Anakin versus Dooku, but to also appeal to Anakin's ego (he defeats Dooku, a legendary swordsman, and still isn't a Jedi Master). EVula 14:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay. They definitely could have made more out of that in the movie. But Dooku did know that Sidious was Palpatine, didn't he? Because when Palpatine told Anakin to kill Dooku, Dooku didn't react with the astonishment one would expect from someone who realized his own master had just betrayed him. Angr (talk • contribs) 14:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm 99% sure that Dooku did know that Palpatine is Sidious, though I just realized that I don't have any evidence to support it. As for why Dooku didn't react more... well, it's the Sith way. It's just what they do, and have for centuries. There was actually very little reason for him to act surprised. Plus, he may have thought (or hoped) that it was just a ploy, thinking that Anakin wasn't as close to the Dark Side as he was; bad call, Dooku. :) EVula 14:52, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

My explanation is OR, but I figured it was obvious. As established by The Clone Wars TV series, Grievous operates under the orders of Count Dooku. The apparent plan was to allow Grievous to kidnap Palpatine in order to garner sympathy from the Senate and draw out Obi-Wan and Anakin. Anakin namely. At his point it would appear that Dooku was working with/for General Grievous. Dooku's orders were most likely to kill both Jedi, which in turn completes the first objective: Gain sympathy for Palpatine. If Obi-Wan dies, then a well respected Jedi Master of the Council has been killed, meaning that Palpatine was right and he requires more powers to keep something such as this from happening again. It should be noted that as they are leaving Palpatine is quick to leave Obi-Wan to die. If Anakin died, it would be equally if not more upsetting to the Republic because of his supposed Chosen One status. Resulting in more powers to Palpatine. The Filmaker 03:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

However if you're wondering the behind the scenes idea, i.e. what Palpatine was really planning. Not only was he looking for more power, but he was laying the seeds for his new apperentice. He knew that Anakin could now best Dooku in a lightsaber battle, he had said in a transmission that Dooku's death was "neccesary". The Filmaker 03:40, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It was a plot to kill Obi-Wan to bring Anakin to the dark side of the force.

       Ciao,
        Adolph172

[edit] Nazi Germany Parallels

I know there are also parallels to the Roman and British empires but Palpatine IS Adolf Hitler. The Republic is the Weimar Republic the "...first Galactic Empire" is the Third Reich the Jedi are the SA and the clone/stormtroopers are the SS. Order 66 is the Night of the Long Knives. Windu's attempt to take Palaptine down could be the Reichstag Fire but Palpatine's declaration is clearly the Enabling Act Or at least thats what I see. LCpl 1628,18 April 2006

In reference to Hitler being Palpatine: was Adolph Hitler secretly commanding the Allied troops? No. I think that this is a major point with Palpatine, and if you're going to draw a direct comparison, it should match.

Also, if you're going to draw parallels, the Reighstag Fire is (in my opinion) akin to the beginning of the Clone Wars, not Windu attempting to arrest Palpatine. EVula 20:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with EVula's idea on the Reighstag Fire, but on Hitler and the allies what about the secret Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the joint German/Soviet invasion of Poland? Hitler played off Stalin as Palpatine did with the Trade Federation LCpl, 18 April 1900 (EST)

I wasn't actually aware of the specifics of the pact, but I still think its different. Hitler merely back-stabbed the Russians. Palpatine didn't betray the Trade Federation; he completely controlled them, and used his control over them to establish himself as leader of the Republic (and grossly increase the powers that his office had). He specifically controlled both groups to eliminate a third group (the Jedi), then disbanded the lesser of the two remaining organizations and emerged as the supreme power. Hitler... not so much with the playing of sides. EVula 21:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section Format

Sorry for reverting your edits. But I've been reorganizing the sections in according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Films. I think it looks best the way it is. The Filmaker 22:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's important to present the production background of a film before it's plot, story elements, etc. are presented. The Manual of Style seems to be more of a suggestion, as far as the order of sections goes. As long as the suggested sections are covered in the article, I don't think order matters as much. The Blade Runner article is the perfect example of how I think a film article should be organized. The Wookieepedian 23:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Duel" merge

• Merge I think The Duel is a sub-par article that holds zero weight outside of the film that it happened in. If anything, that should be a disambig page, since "the duel" could have multiple uses outside of this one movie (ie: mention "the duel" in Raiders of the Lost Ark and people will probably think of Indy vs. the swordsman, ending with an anti-climactic gunshot). Plus, is there any substantial evidence of the final fight being called "The Duel"? EVula 21:28, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
• Merge. The Wookieepedian 21:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
• Merge While I think that the subject could make an interesting article all by it self. This article doesn't bring enough to the table. In addition, I haven't heard of anyone specifically refer to the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel as "The Duel" and expect me to know exactly what they are talking about. The Filmaker 21:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Mergey mergey mergey! :p Grymsqueaker 10:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I've run over the article and decided to instead to nominate it for straight up deletion. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Duel The Filmaker 22:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cinematic and literary allusions references

Can anyone find any articles or sources for this section? I'm aware that a lot of this well established as being true, such as the Order 66 sequence and the Godfather parallels. And Anakin making a pact with the devil (Palpatine). But I've only been able to find a few message boards that discuss, no link to an news article of some kind. We definetly need these sources if the article would ever be able to get to FA status. The Filmaker 23:40, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On the new cast list

I'm thinking we should discuss how the new cast list (with descriptions) should be formatted. I'm thinking that we should try to keep it relatively spoiler free. Mostly for the fact that the only reason you would most likely need descriptions is if you haven't seen the film or read the synopsis. We should probably keep the descriptions down to what we know about the characters within the first thirty minutes of the Episode III. This does however present a problem with James Earl Jones credit (which I think we should keep), I'm going to revert it back to simply "voice of suited Darth Vader" since if someone should stumble upon the credit, having not read or seen the other films, then they would have no idea what it means. The Filmaker 18:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section Format Deux

Currently we're putting the sections in the sequence of, more or less, the way the featured article on Blade Runner is setup. Namely, I don't like putting the plot first, because the infobox extends into it and pushes the opening photo down to a weird place, pushing the text into all different directions. If I/we can solve that. Then I'd be fine with putting the plot at the top. The Filmaker 21:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section deleted

I've just about gotten rid of the trivia section and for anyone who is passing by, please do not try to create it again. Trivia sections are pretty much the death of featured articles. I've deleted a lot of stuff I didn't want to. But in the end it comes down to "What of this is useful?" not so much what is interesting, I've tried to save as much I can, but some of it just isn't worth keeping. The Filmaker 05:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Articles looking really good, keep it up, you could have a very strong contender for FA soon, and amaze the people at Wikiproject Star Wars LOL :) Judgesurreal777 05:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

True. It looks like it could become a FA soon. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 20:40, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Then where do we find Star Wars (or, indeed, any trivia) trivia? There is a place in Americana for "little known facts" whether attached to articles regarding the subject or in seperate articles.12.107.188.130 21:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You should see WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE. The Filmaker 21:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for that (and sorry I didn't sign-in before). I did not see trivia presented as something Wikipedia is not. I ask, not out of a desire to annoy but I am thinking of championing a GA status for a movie (Still Crazy and was going to solicit your help and expertise) and I want to make sure that I know what goes and what stays and, indeed, what I'm doing in the first place. So the argument goes against trivia? Even when presented as a simple fact?Padillah 11:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I could give you my long argument. However, I'm pressed for time at the moment. So I'm sorry, but I'll have to just through some other policy pages at you. WP:TRIVIA and WP:AVTRIV. The Filmaker 12:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On the caption

Do we even have to put a caption down? I mean it is quite obviously the poster for the film, no caption is needed. The IMDB ratings have recently been "outlawed", I personally see no reason for these. Anyone agree? The Filmaker 16:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree the IMDb rating shouldn't be used, but other than that I don't really care if there is a caption or not. It is indeed pretty obvious that it's the movie poster. --16:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HOORAY!

Featured article at long last!.......... I am NEVER doing that again! :) :P The Filmaker 06:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• Congratulations on your success! :) The Wookieepedian 06:08, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Wow. Congrats to all the people who contributed to the article. But don't retire! Do AOTC! Cvene64 07:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
    • I'll do AOTC. But I'm going to take it slow. I'll get every last detail down before I bring up for FAC. The Filmaker 15:34, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
      • W00T, nice job guys! I'm pleasently surprised that it passed so soon :) I didn't even get to swing my vote from neutral to support! Sorry =D — Deckiller 20:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
        • Congratulations Filmmaker, for bringing the first Star Wars topic to FA status :) Judgesurreal777 20:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
          • WOOHOO! STAR WARZ IS TEH R0XR--Greasysteve13 08:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Great article, reads well with lots of good information. Congrats. -- Ari 16:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Happy Anniversary

Today(5/19) is the first anniversary of ROTS. Dudtz5/19/06 3:29 PM EST

• And the seventh anniversary of TPM, might I add! The Wookieepedian 19:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Han Solo

His role in this movie wou;d've been performed by Skandar Keynes if it had been included in RoTS. --Ryanasaurus0077 02:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• If you can provide a credible source than the information will be added. The Filmaker 20:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Theatrical Ending Compared to the DVD Ending

Taken from the article- "Unlike any other films directed by Lucas, Revenge of the Sith was released on DVD without any noticeable alterations from the film's original theatrical cut." There was one major difference I noticed in the theatrical version of the film and the DVD version. The endings were not the same! It is surprising that no one has caught this yet, but as I remember, the theatrical version of the film ended with Vader staring off into space, his head moving from right to left, and then the credits rolling. However, the DVD ended with Kenobi delivering Luke to his Aunt and Uncle on Tattoine, then the Aunt and Uncle looking into the desert sun. Once again, it is surprising that no one noticed this. ::—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gamecheater2009 (talk • contribs).

• Unfortunately, you are mistaken. Not only do I personally remember the film ending with the twin suns portrait, but there are several bootleg communities (people who own camcorder tapings of the theatrical cut) who have studied the differences between the theatrical cut and the DVD version who have reported there being no differences except for the wipe being replaced by the cut. So frankly, I think that the reason no one else has noticed.... is because it never really happened. The Filmaker 21:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

• Ditto! I too remember the twin sunset scene. Nothing about this film changed really from the theather to the DVD. I guess it just shows either that they were really satisfied with their final product, and being digital, they could transfer to DVD immediately...or in a mad dash for more money they just slapped on the theather version as soon as they could. Either case, you must have gotten up or left early b/c that last scene was very prominent right before the credits rolled.--LifeStar 14:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I guess I must have been mistaken. But I do distinctly remember seeing Vader looking out of an Imperial ship at the unfinished death star, and I did watch the end credits. Could that have been before the twin suns? ::—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gamecheater2009 (talk • contribs).

• Yes, Vader does look out of the Star Destroyer at the unfinished Death Star in the theatrical version and the DVD version. This happens before Obi-Wan brings Luke to Tatooine. The Filmaker 17:44, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cast Section

I think that the cast section is really well formatted, but I just think that the description of each person should be about the actor themselves at the time of the film, rather than the character. If we wanted to know about the character, well, that's in the plot summary, and on their respective page. I just think it should be more like Casablanca (film or Richard III (1955 film) ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 06:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• The plot summary is to summarize the plot, not the characters. Think of the cast section as one giant hub for what actors and corresponding characters were in the film. Notice with the Soundtrack and Novelization sections, how they have their brief descriptions and then have those tabs on top specfiying to go to the main article. That's what cast section is for, a general list, main article tabs and brief descriptions. I do not believe there is much to be said about the actors "at the time" they were cast or filmed the movie. The Filmaker 03:05, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] external links section

I have no skill myself in Wikipedia formatting, but the external links section of this article really looks pretty thrown together. If anybody knows more than I do how to fix this, that'd be awesome -MBlume 02:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orpheus?

It's sourced- so I didn't remove it, rather commented here- but the reference to Orpheus is so unbelievably flimsy that I just can't see why it's in there.

We'll start with the fact that Eurydice is already dead, whereas Padme is alive at the start of their journeys- Orpheus' a literal journey into the underworld, Anakin's a more metaphorical one down the path to the "Dark side".

After a difficult journey- the journies here can't be compared, since Orpheus' journey starts with a set goal (Bring is wife back to life), whereas Anakin's journey doesn't really start until he speaks to Palpatine- they both do reach an agreement with a nasty, powerful figure. There's a similarity there, I'll admit.

Except, the similarity ends there. Orpheus can't bring himself to keep looking ahead, and eventually looks back on his wife's shade, who vanishes. He doesn't have the strength of will to walk out of the underworld not knowing whether she's following.

Anakin? Well, he just keeps on going down the dark path (Or whatever you'd call it), does some nasty things, and ends up thinking he killed his wife, thus being consumed.

Orpheus is eventually killed after wandering around singing of his lost love, and dies with her name on his lips. Anakin? Well, there's no similarity with what happens to Anakin there, is there? Except maybe that he's hugely remorseful that he killed his wife, when he actually didn't, and she dies after giving birth.

I've tried to keep it brief, but even though it's source, it's an utterly ludicrous comparisson. There's just no parrallel between the two stories.

If he really must be compared to a Greek character, well, just off the top of my head Achilles might be more appropriate (Immensely skilled warrior who's consumed by his anger), possibly Ajax-the-greater (Goes mad and starts killing goats-that-he-thinks-are-people when things don't go his way, somewhat similar to Anakin's rampages).

Well, those arn't any better than the Orpheus comparrison, I guess. But, even though it is sourced, I just don't think that comparrison works at all.

(Oh, and great article. I'm not a huge fan of the films, but it's a really good article, kudos to the editors who put it together) Barnas 01:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree with that completely; I was coming to this page to note much the same problem. The comparison just doesn't hold up, and I'm not sure that a single critic having mentioned it makes it worth including in the article. --71.10.173.77 20:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed this, because after a day, it still grates on me that it's in there. In my humble opinion, based on having studied the story of Orpehus in Virgil's Georgics and seen the film, there simply isn't a comparrison, and one person having written a paragraph saying that there is doesn't mean it should be in the article.

If anyone disgarees, feel free to put it back in. I've said my piece. Barnas 15:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Swift Cuts

I've changed "Obi-Wan slices off both of his legs and his left arm in one swift cut" to "Obi-Wan slices off both of his legs and his left arm in two swift cuts" in the plot synopsis. If you watch the scene in slow motion you can see that Obi-Wan takes two seperate swings, a first for the arm and a second for the two legs. It looks very convincing even in slow motion.Evilrodhull 12:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Massacre of the Innocents

When Anakin drew his lightsaber to kill the Jedi children, I started to go into shock. Lost circulation to my hands and feet. If the scene had not shifted, I would have had to be rushed to the hospital in an ambulance. Was this just me, or did other people have a similar reaction? 66.99.0.162 16:23, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope. It was just you.

I did too

       Ciao,
        Adolph172

You should see a doctor

[edit] Videogame

Regarding the text about the the game featuring "cut scenes from the movie" as well as new scenes; is "cut scenes" meant to mean scenes which had been cut from the movie but feaure in the game, or is it meant to mean "cut-scenes" (sections of video shown between gameplay) which are taken from (and feature in) the released film? Twilo 17:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've wikified cutscenes to reduce confusion. The Filmaker 21:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

Can we do something about the missing bracket at the right end of that link at the end of the Intro? Nightscream 20:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Superfluous Synopsis

It seems to me that the section titled "Synopsis" is a little excessive. It basically tells the entire story without detail as opposed to highlighting the key plot points that give the major concflict and introduce some characters. Should this be changed? Some changes I would suggest are to, as mentioned, limit detail to the key plot points, possibly ones that influence the rest of the saga, and keep spoilers to a minimum. Also, it seems that the Synopsis sections for the other Star Wars movie pages have the same quality of dragging on with every plot development. Those pages should be considered for revision as well. The Editor 21:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• You should have seen them before... The Wookieepedian 01:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
• Be carefful. Limiting spoilers and glossing over major story arcs can violate the comprehensiveness requirement of the feature article criteria. Some articles do go overboard with plot; however, I don't think that this is one of them. — TKD::Talk 02:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] T-shirt

Once i saw a T-shirt that said "Come to the dark side. Small print'We Have Cookies' "

        Ciao,
         Adolph172

Good for you. Now what the hell does this have to do with ROTS? ...._(Complain)^{(Let us to it pell-mell)} 05:31, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Nothing, it was just something funny adolph 172

[edit] Too much irrelevant data

There is a lot of info here. See the box office section, for exemple. I cleared "only" one banal line and it was reverted. Cleared again, because the hughe small data not follows the usual wiki scheme. Kim FOR sure 02:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the fact that the film was the third-fastest to reach that sales level is irrelevant. A source foundi t worth mentioning. — TKD::Talk 06:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong image comment for the Battle of Coruscant

While the comment (Two Jedi Fighters in the middle of starships) is true in the movie, the image depicts two ARC-170 starfighters...

Sources : http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ARC-170_starfighter http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eta-2_Actis-class_light_interceptor

(Paercebal, 22:36, 7 October 2006, GMT+1)

• This a bit tough, the Jedi Fighters are in the photo, they're just smaller and harder to see. I'm changing it to ARC-170 starfighters unless someone objects to it. The Filmaker 22:51, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] REACTION SECTION needs re-written

It's nice that the reaction section of this article has box office records seperated, but the entire main article for this section looks like it was written by a fanboy and contains many biased, POV statements.

I got dizzy trying to read it. "Some people thought this, other people thought that." "Some agree that this was the best of the prequels, others think it was not as good as blah blah blah."

This needs to be fixed. I will begin working on it soon if it isn't resolved.

Venom-smasher 00:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Huh? It seems perfectly fine to me, and the dozens of other experienced editors who have read/worked/critiqued this article. Your arguements suggest overreading into POV, overanalyzing, or pushing a personal POV. — Deckiller 01:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't start here, with what you did with the TPM article. The articles are not POV, many veteran users have agreed so. You, on the other hand, have less then 100 edits. While it is possible for a new user to know more than a veteran, you have made it clear that this is not the case. The Filmaker 02:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

• • • Where to begin???

"Critical reaction towards the film was largely enthusiastic, especially in comparison to the two previous prequels."

POV STATEMENT. Similar statement was removed from The Phantom Menace article, citing no sources. But, here we are making a bold statement like this, also without a source. Like I said, FAN BOY POV. You have done it in all 3 prequel articles (haven't even looked at the original trilogy). You have somehow snuck your fan boy opinion into these articles.

"Critics and fans alike were quick to jump on such lines of Anakin or Padmé including "Hold me, Ani. Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo."

This is just unprofessional and fan boy sounding. Fine if you want to mention the reaction to dialog, but don't single out cheesy lines in an article like this.

"It is often said the film contains a number of plot holes, although this claim is widely disputed and debated by fans.[21]"

Again, by who? Your source is an internet site with a review from a guy who is hardly a respected reviewer.

"Though many critics and fans saw it as one of the best of the series, or at least, the strongest of the three prequels, others saw it as more or less on par with The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones."

POV Statement and another of many sloppy flip flops. You keep doing this "One side said this, while the other said this" crap and I don't know why.

Overall, you seem to be so obsessive with your "sources" that you will find any website, anywhere, that supports your POV, just so you can keep it in your article. As I had mentioned on The Phantom Menace discussion, many of your so called sources were FAN reviews and FAN forums. I could just as easily find another fan site, reviewer, whatever, that are saying the opposite.

You would still revert those edits, because you want to control these articles.

Now, clean it up, or I will be forced to dispute the neutrality of this article. Venom-smasher 03:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

A couple of things. First, please point to places where a Star Wars fan site is being cited in the reaction section. The least well-known of the sources seems to be a fairly stable general science fiction review site. Now, a couple of paragraphs could use explicit citations (the second paragraph, for example), but that's a bit different from claiming that fan sites are cited.

"Neutrality" refers to Wikipedia's neutral point of view, which means that articles need to represent fairly what has been written in verifiable, reliable sources, without giving undue weight to one specific perspective. So going back and forth between one perspective and another is actually the correct way to present material when there is siginificant disagreement, so that Wikipedia doesn't actually take sides. On the other hand, if there is a prevailing consensus, Wikipedia should present that opinion as such.

If you think that the article is biased, you should find reliable sources to show that the article's presentation of opinions is out of balance. Claiming that it's out of balance without providing other sources doesn't really help much. — TKD::Talk 06:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Venom, please read WP:POV before claiming articles are biased. Many forms of writing have things called introduction sentences, which display what will be supported or discussed in the paragraph or section. The reception sections are fine; they have a "back and forth" flow which is required by NPOV AND they are supported by sources. You are arguing against several experienced Wikipedians, each of which has actually written at least two featured articles, not to mention copyedited and critiqued numerous others. We know what we are talking about. Please realize this and please stop, or try to find experienced Wikipedians who agree with you. — Deckiller 14:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

You should read this section: Wikipedia:Words to avoid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#However.2C_although.2C_whereas

However, although, whereas

It clearly states not to use these words :)

Venom-smasher 16:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't say that the should never be used under any circumstances; that section even notes where "however" would be acceptable. I currently note a whopping three instances of "however" in the reaction section, with one "although" and no "whereas". Hardly worth getting all worked up over. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:22, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed two of the instances. The third "however" worked exceedingly well where it was, and removing it would have made the sentence awkward. EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My problem with this article

To User:The Filmaker

What I don't get is why you insist on adding references to this article that refer to which movie was better than the other. You seem to be hiding behind the fact that you cited these statements, but as I have mentioned before, one could easily find another website claiming the opposite.

At best, you should have one, maybe two lines discussing the critical reaction and that is enough. If someone would like to read a review of said movie, then they would. It's the same with the Jar Jar Binks stuff. Yes, he should be mentioned as being controversial, but why is there a need to embelish the truth or add questionable references to something that is really not that big of a deal to begin with.

Overall, if you read the reaction sections from Episode 1 to Episode 3, you have clearly worded it so that Episode 1 is the weakest film, Episode 2 is "a marked improvement over The Phantom Menace," and Revenge Of The Sith is the best of the prequels.

You have snuck in some references supporting the other side, but you clearly have it worded as I have written above.

Which again goes back to the question. Why is it neccessary to even try to clarify which movie was better than the other? I don't see how it helps the article at all.

Even on the episode 2 page, you got burned with the 3 revert rule by refusing to remove the simple line claiming the movie was "a marked improvement over The Phantom Menace."

So, I question your neutrality of these articles when I see that stuff, especially when you go out of your way to keep it in there.

Venom-smasher 05:33, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can find reviews from reliable sources, please do, in fact, bring them up specifically. The question is not whether the point of view is present, but whether it is representative and given proper weight. This is what is meant by Wikipedia's NPOV policy. The article does not need to be absolutely devoid of opinions, but should not itself be tipping the scale out of synch with what has actually been verifiably stated in reliable sources.

It is a long-standing practice and consensus interpretation of encyclopedic comprehensiveness that specific representative points of criticism, positive and negative, of works of art, literature, and popular culture be presented in the article. In fact, that is part of Wikipedia's mission as a tertiary source to summarize these sources which add analysis and opinions about a work. Most people prefer more than a one- or two-sentence treatment here. — TKD::Talk 05:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you claim that a website can be easily found that presents the opposite of opinion of what is stated in the article. If this is true, please provide and it can be taken into consideration. TKD pretty much summed up why a one or two sentence treatment is the opposite of Wikipedia's mission and purpose. Please don't bring up my 24 blocking because of violating the 3RR, especially since you fail to point out that you were burned just as bad as me for refusing to engage in a discussion at the time. Comparison between films is necessary because of the natural reaction among fans and critics of sequels and adaptations. A common criticism is someone walking out of a cinema after seeing a sequel saying "Eh, it wasn't as good as the first one." or "The book was better." Comparisons are common when it comes to franchises especially film franchises. The Filmaker 06:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutral POV is not writing a large paragraph at the start of a section boasting about the movies positive reviews, specifically pointing out that it received higher reviews from critics than the previous 2 films, then going into the criticism of the film, and then later in the paragraph having a line saying "Some fans thought it was more or less on par with the previous two films."

Thats not neutral. The articles are clearly leaning in the direction the writer wants them to. And no people don't prefer to have more than a couple of sentences if they are talking about fan opinion and information that can't be proved.

It has no place in these articles. It's like if you were reading an article about potatoes and it says, "Potatoes are very healthy. The skin actually contains many nutrients, however most people don't like the taste of potatoe skins, and some people just don't like potatoes at all."

Who cares??? Even if you find some CNN poll that says 25% of all people don't like potatoes, how is this helpful to the article?

Venom-smasher 06:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

In and of itself, the tone is fine. There may be a couple overgeneralizations, particularly when one review is supplied to support a general statement casted in the plural. However, this is corrected by tweaking the current wording to be more specific or by adding more sources. You are somewhat overstating your case, in that well-known sites and publications are cited. Regardless, the solution is not to pare down the reaction section to an overgeneral statement that is fundamentally unverifiable. Verifiability is generally improved by moving toward more specific cases and avoiding general statements. Again, if the ratings are such and such, or if revirewer so-and-so said something, it is not non-neutral to state so. Your general conception of the reaction section is not supported by large swaths of precedent, in the form of dozens of featured articles whose sections have been read over and vetted by many users. Now, specific sentences may need to be more strongly supported or softened, but that's a more localized issue that doesn't really warrant starting over on the reaction section. — TKD::Talk 12:50, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, here are some edits I think should be made. I will not make these edits, I am discussing them with you. I do feel strongly about these edits however. So here we go...

(edit recommendations in bold)

Critical reaction towards the film was largely enthusiastic, especially in comparison to the two previous prequels. Film review site Rotten Tomatoes calculated a rating of 82% based on 229 reviews, compared to the 63% and 66% received by Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace and Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones respectively.[21] Some critics noted that they view it to be the best of the prequels, while other reviewers judged it to be the best Star Wars film since Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back. A. O. Scott of The New York Times concluded that it was "the best of the four episodes Mr. Lucas has directed," and equal to The Empire Strikes Back as "the richest and most challenging movie in the cycle."

If you are going to say "some critics and other reviewers," I think it should mention the name of said critic, otherwise, it looks like POV or forcing opinion. Like, it's fine to say "Roger Ebert said it was the best of the prequels," but when you just say some, it comes off as POV, even if it has been cited, which it hasn't. Also, even if you add reference, you should still mention the critic or reviewers name in the sentence. Again, it looks like whoever wrote this, is trying to force opinion without having a reliable source. For example, you say Roger Ebert and people know who that is, but if you say "Joe Movie Fan," noone knows who that is, so you just say "Some" and then add reference sites. I don't think that is very good for an article. The only reason you would do it is because you know your source is questionable. "Some Critics" are never "Roger Ebert," they are usually an unknown.

A new ref has been added from The New Yorker to clarify. The Filmaker 15:55, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Much of the criticism for the film was directed towards the dialogue of Revenge of the Sith, particularly the film's romantic scenes. Critics and fans alike were quick to jump on such lines of Anakin or Padmé including "Hold me, Ani. Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo." Critics have claimed this demonstrated Lucas' weakness as a writer of dialouge, though these scenes nevertheless attracted far less ire than their counterparts in Attack of the Clones.[21]

Here, this entire paragraph sounds cheesy and fan written, especially the mocking of lines from the movie. Even if they are cheesy, they make the article look even worse. Again, you also have no critics name mentioned, you just say "Critics and fans." Which critic said this demonstrated Lucas' weaknesses?

I honestly don't care who it "sounds like" wrote the paragraph, provided that it is written in the proper prose and properly sourced (which it is). I've added a new reference that incidentally has new information and is also more specific about the criticism of Lucas' dialogue. The Filmaker 14:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Other criticisms included previously raised issues with the prequels: "wooden" acting, overuse of flashy and colorful computer-generated special effects, and attempts to be both childish and mature at the same time. It is often said the film contains a number of plot holes, although this claim is widely disputed and debated by fans.[22] Though many critics and fans saw it as one of the best of the series, or at least, the strongest of the three prequels, others saw it as more or less on par with The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones.

And again, it shows here too, with more "Critics and fans" said this or that. Again, there is no way to prove the number of fans or critics who said this. It could be 1, 2, 3, whatever. So, you need to add the persons name who said this, for it to remain neutral and as stated many many times, it looks as if you are pushing your opinion without having a reliable source.

Venom-smasher 23:32, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The issue with the reference in that paragraph has already been brought up by Evula and working on finding some new reference(s). The last sentence is cited with a source to the New Yorker. The Filmaker 16:39, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pic caption

"Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader duel on Mustafar." Wouldn't it be more correct to say Anakin as he had not yet fully undergone the transformation yet at this point? I'm sure given the die-hard fans here, this has already been discussed and there is some technical reason to list him as Darth Vader. Most fans recognize Vader as the chsracter in the dark space suit however (by fans, I don't mean die hard fans. I mean the majority of the population who has seen the series). Quadzilla99 14:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well he has already been given the title of Darth Vader before the fight on Mustafar so it is quite correct to call him this in my opinion. Ben W Bell talk 15:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The transformation of Skywalker into Vader has nothing to do with the black suit; the transformation itself was when Sidious christened him Vader. So, the caption is right, though I will agree that most fans think of the black suited figure when they think "Darth Vader" (it just happens to not matter in this case). EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)