Talk:Steve Bracks
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Tannin, "little-known" is probably fair enough. --Robert Merkel 09:13 Jan 7, 2003 (UTC)
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[edit] Tollway backdown
"In May 2003 Bracks made what many saw as his first serious error in office when he broke an election promise and announced that the proposed Scoresby Freeway in Melbourne's eastern suburbs would be a tollway rather than a freeway, as promised at the 2002 elections."
Certainly it was unpopular, but is it fair to say it was an error?
BenAveling 09:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
Lol I could list a few things he's done prior to this that were unpopular and/or erroneous. ZPMMaker 09:53, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm sure you could. :-) Glad I've never made a mistake ;-) BenAveling 10:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Spouse
In the intruduction it mentions that his wife's name is Terry, however in the info box it says he is married to Lyn Bracks. Does he practice polygamy or is there some sort of error here? gnpaaron
- Yes, there was an error, which has been fixed. Thanks for pointing it out. --Robert Merkel 08:46, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Brackswatch?
Somebody removed the link as "extremist". It is clearly highly critical of Bracks, but describing it as "extremist" seems rather harsh. I think it's probably relevant enough to add as an external link. --Robert Merkel 15:46, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, there is an ALP run link on the Howard page. May as well be consistent. Xtra 00:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
- No, Brackswatch is not extremist. But it does choose to criticise the administration in a adversarial manner. If it was to provide a good critical analysis, then it would be relevant. However, I don't think it is appropriate to link what is clearly a Liberal Dirt Blog on Bracks. --Gomalcolm
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- Please! We keep other "dirt blogs" on other people. E.g. on John Howard there is Truth Overboard. This has been up for a while and there is no consensus to remove it. Xtra 10:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Brackswatch is a blog that apparently claims to be "Keeping Steve Accountable Until 2006", not disclosing the fact that it is a partisan website. Truth Overboard is an ALP site, which is apparent both on the webpage, and in the John Howard article next to the link.--Gomalcolm
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- They don't have a link to the Liberal Party website, nor are they pushing for anyone in the Liberal party in particular. You can't tag them as purely "Liberal". Anti-Bracks perhaps?--schgooda 03:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
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- No, they don't have a link to the Liberal Party website, and they may even not be pushing for any one in the Liberal party in particular. But with articles like this Brackswatch - A weekend to consider the future I think it is pretty safe to tag them as Liberal. --Gomalcolm 06:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
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It seems Brackswatch is not the only site devoted to chronicling the Premier of Victoria and his government's alleged shortcomings. Maybe a link should be provided to Boot Out Bracks (which makes its position quite clear) at http://www.whitepage.com.au/Bracks41 Sites such as this surely give an indication of what some of the electorate are thinking and should therefore be pointed to. -- (James_Linton@fastmail.fm)
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- Its a good insider source of information regarding Steve Bracks. It contains quotes from Steve Bracks and balances the heavily spun official website written by his PR department. The link should stand as a matter of balance --User: anonymous 06:09, 2 Aug 2006 (UTC)
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- I removed it once as blogspam before reading this talk page. So if anyone's counting, count me as another vote against the brackswatch page link. --Scott Davis Talk 12:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I've added it back. The majority of comments on this page support the link being there.
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- Oh, I just removed it before I read this. add another vote against - The "truth overboard" one is different as it has an obvious byline and noone is going to think it otherwise. I could elaborate but hopefully people understand the difference in weight between major newspapers (local or statewide), websites sponsored (glaringly) by major political parties and fliers left on lunchroom tables and random rant blogs by noone in particular.
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So many times material is removed which gives balance to the official Bracks propaganda, we the citizens of Victoria are entitled to give facts on what effects his real policies are having on us, even an W3C avalidity and accessibility test of the Bracks homepage is removed. Is Wicki just a servant of the Bracks' government media campaign. It makes Wicki worthless to remove all factual content relating to policies of his government. Leave Brackswatch and my entries on the world first drug testing of drivers, and the police state alone.
[edit] Lebanese Australian
Describing Bracks as "Lebanese Australian is a misnomer. It should be noted that his Maternal grandparents were Lebanese, but describing him as being purely lebanses is incorrect—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.68.137.56 (talk • contribs).. Any reference to is lebnese background is irrelevant. Do we say that John Howard is of Anglo-Celtic ancestry in Wikipedia? No. If perhaps Bracks had been born in Lebanon it would be relevant, but his ancestry has nof affected his plicies, or his character.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gullivers travels (talk • contribs).
Bracks has passed a Religion and racial Vilification Act which prohibits free speech on race or religion, six months jails is the penalty, in light of his policy to jail Victorians for speaking about religion his religious background is relevant, why would he proposes such anti-free speech laws. Maybe he is from a strange Lebanese Catholic sect, it is a question worth asking in light of his laws against free speech.
[edit] textual infelicities
I don't edit articles on Australian politicians (since I work for one), but I note the following textual infelicities which someone might like to fix.
- "Labor would arguably claim that their spending on education, culminating in what may be Victoria's lowest ever primary school class numbers as the Bracks Government main achievement." This sentence is awakward, ungrammatical and generally meaningless. What does "arguably claim" mean? Either Labor does make such a claim or they don't.
- Fair point.
- "Labor's most lasting reform under Bracks may well prove to be his changes to the electoral system in the state upper house." This is an opinion.
- Agreed, but I think one that should be reinforced by some quotes by opinion articles. Changing an electoral system that has kept your opponents in control of one house of Parliament almost unbroken for a century is a pretty big deal.
- "One could be forgiven thinking that Premier Bracks is an events organiser rather than Premier." This is a political opinion.
- Agreed, and one that could equally have been applied to his predecessor...--Robert Merkel 00:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- "Premier Bracks continues to enjoy reasonable support, but it is envisioned the next election will be a watershed event if the government is re-elected." Envisaged by whom? In what sense a "watershead event"? The meaning of this sentence is most obscure.
- Yep, needs editing.
- On the question of Bracks' Lebanese ancestry, this is a biographical article, and a person's ethnic descent is part of their biography. It is meaningless to say that it is "irrelevant." How is his date of birth "relevant"? Bracks is the first state premier of Lebanese descent. This makes the fact notable, which is the important criterion.Adam 09:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed, it is relevant, though comparatively little has been made of it.
- I'll try and fix the article in reference to your comments ASAP. -Robert Merkel 00:50, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
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- I edited before reading here: I removed " (some of whom are of Lebanese origin)" from the first paragraph. I would not have removed it from a paragraph in a "background and childhood" section or similar, if it noted whatever the rest of his ancestry is, or from a paragraph that explained what impact Lebanese ancestry has had on his politics. Are either of these possible? I'm not from Victoria, but had never heard he was part-Lebanese until recently reading this article, and have not yet seen what impact it has. Did he make some strongly worded speech supporting Hezbollah or fit some other stereotype of Lebanese immigrants (rich, poor, refugee, refugee-made-good, Muslim, Christian, hard-working, lazy,...)? --Scott Davis Talk 13:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
No, he didn't say a word during the war, and so far as I know his Lebanese descent has had no influence on his politics. But that isn't the point. This isn't an article about Things which have influenced Steve Bracks' politics, it's a biography, and his ethnic descent is part of his biography. It doesn't have to be "relevant" to anything, any more than his date of birth is "relevant." The purpose of an encyclopaedia is to give information. Which bits of information are relevant to anything else is a matter for readers. Someone researching Overseas Lebanese and Their Success in Business and Politics would find the reference very relevant. Adam 13:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- If he's part Lebanese, and that's relevant, then what are the other parts? They aren't identified, but are presumably just as important. If his Lebanese descent doesn't influence his politics, it doesn't belong in the lead paragraph. The precise date of his birth is equally irrelevant, but the year/decade is interesting to help put him in the context of his peers, and the rest of the date just goes with it. I imagine being a Maronite is actually a much more interesting and influential trait than being of Lebanese descent. Is it? --Scott Davis Talk 14:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know what his non-Lebanese ancestry is, presumably Anglo or Irish like most Victorians, but since that is the Australian "default ethnicity" it's not especially notable.
- His ethnic descent does belong in the opening paragraph because that is the paragraph where his date and place of birth are mentioned. It would only need to be mentioned again further on if there was something more to say about it, which there doesn't seem to be.
- A Maronite is a Lebanese Eastern Rite Catholic. If you say someone is of Lebanese descent, you have to specify whether they are of Christian or Muslim background, because there is a big difference (duh). Adam 14:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Incidentally, the only other Victorian Premier I can think of who was not of wholly Anglo-Scottish-Irish descent was Henry Bolte, who was of German descent. That fact is duly noted at his article. So is Morris Iemma's Italian parentage and Joh Bjelke-Petersen's Danish descent. Adam 14:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- All three examples appear to list complete ethnic origin, and in the section after the intro, not in the lead paragraph. Demographics of Lebanon says that there are 18 religious sects recognised in the Constitution of Lebanon, and at a rough count, at least five of those are Eastern Rite Catholic. I find it much more interesting that a Maronite was elected as a Labor premier than a third-generation (?) descendant of Lebanese extraction. --Scott Davis Talk 15:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think Bolte was German on both sides, I will have to check.
- Bracks is not a Maronite, he's a Catholic. His Lebanese ancestors were Maronite. Adam 03:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
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- So his Maronite Lebanese ancestry is important enough to be in the second sentence and first category, but his own Catholicism is not important enough to mention anywhere in the article or to classify him in Category:Australian Roman Catholics? Why? If the article explained why, I'd (probably) be satisfied. It doesn't. --Scott Davis Talk 13:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
So put in yourself and stop complaining. Adam 13:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
- Done. But I'd rather either tie it into the article with some relevance later, or delete the entire sentence (and the two categories). --Scott Davis Talk 15:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I have broken my vow of abstinence from Australian politician articles since no-one fixed the various illiteracies and irrelevancies which cluttered this article. As the election approaches this article will require constant attention to stop people turning it into a mess of "what happened today and what I think about it." Adam 15:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- I am not sure that we can say his financial policies are "fiscally prudent", surely that is a matter of opinion--Scitty 04:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Bracks's likeable public persona and consensus-based approach to leadership made him popular with the electorate, and the partnership of Labor and the independents provided stable, fiscally prudent government. This too seems opinion based.?--Scitty 04:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
