Talk:Sufism/Archive 2
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Opening Paragraph: definition of Sufism
A recent edit added the following: Sufism has been explained by different people in different ways. Sufism is, in fact, the purification of our baser instincts, heart and soul as prescribed in the Holy Quran by Allah: "But those will prosper who purify themselves." (87:14)
Coming in the opening paragraph, as it does, it sounds like a definition of Sufism. Meaning that it is the consensus definition of editors who have worked on this page.
I would like to ask: 1) Whose definition is this? 2) Does it pass the consensus test?
Sarabseth 10:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Removed POV tag
An anon editor did a drive-by on the article, slapping a POV tag at the top without giving any reason or justification. I'll agree that this article is both a sprawling mess and somewhat adulatory of Sufis, but any critics should be willing to argue for the tag and discuss changes in talk. I am guessing that the anon was a Salafi, as he linkspammed the Salafi article. Zora 08:19, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, the reason/justification is given in the first section of this talk page, titled "extremely biased article". Same anon editor. GTBacchus 08:28, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't realize that. I guess he's new enough that he didn't realize that he should add comments at the bottom, not at the top. I didn't look at the top. OK, I'll restore the tag. Zora 08:39, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Request for your aid dealing with actions from a user against Religious, Spiritual and Esoteric articles
User:Baphomet. is damaging Wikipedia: he his trying to label Religious articles as Superstition (from a POV view of positivism, that he calls Science). At the article Reincarnation he just went on to add to category "Superstition" and later on without discussion put a POV msg in the article. Please see the discussion page between both of us Talk:Reincarnation#Superstition.
Through the use of a Culture created by extremism in Science, he is clearly trying to do the job that the Inquisition did in the Middle Ages in a Culture created by extremism in Religion. He is damaging Wikipedia in a subtle invious way!
- Please see also the Alert message I have created at Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts#September_4, Thank you! --GalaazV 20:25, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
References to Gnosticism do not clarify but confuse
The matter-of-fact way that the concept of 'gnosis' and the class of 'gnostics' is tossed around in this article is misleading and does not serve to clarify the issue of sufism at all.
Many traditional Islamic resources, and even modern research, suggest a strong relationship between Sufism and gnostic ideas
Okay, I'd let this one slide, but only because the gnosticism article the link on this page points to attempts to describe the difficulty and disagreement in defining gnosticism as a movement.
However,
Some researchers consider Sufism a form of gnostic faith surrounded by a shell of Islamic concepts taken from Quran and Sunna
Is totally specious. I'd like to know who these 'researchers' are.
And as for,
Sufism par excellence is the science of gnosis which like many other sciences and philosophies has parallels in Islamic culture.
I'm not sure what this is even supposed to mean! Even if one could make the case that 'gnosis' (assuming that there is agreement about what it *is* in the first place) could be referred to as a 'science,' without completely discarding the generally-accepted meanings of both terms, I don't know why the author of this line would find only 'parallels' between it and Islamic culture. Indeed, many great scientific advances weren't merely paralleled in Muslim culture, but actually discovered by muslim scientists, so this is awkward at best.
I suggest this be omitted, along with:
Sufism is not the only Islamic sect that has gnostic ideas in its structure. There are also deep gnostic roots in Shiite thought, and those shared roots is the reason of some similarities between Sufism and Shiite thought.
This smacks of propangandizing by someone identifying with a modern gnostic sect.
On Non-Islamic Sufi orders, Sufism and Gnosticism, Mysticism and Sufism in general
On the subject of Non-Islamic Sufi orders:
There are sufi orders in the West (and the East as well) that can be classified as "non-islamic," in the sense that they view themselves as members of EVERY religion and not just Islam. Take the Sufi Ruhaniat International (a Western Sufi order) for example, both leaders and followers come from numerous traditions. In fact if you look at the main page of their website there is this statement, "If invited to offer prayers in a church, a mosque, a synagogue, or a temple, the Sufi is ready to do so, knowing that all people worship the same God, the Only Being, no matter what Name they use." Thus a Sufi in this tradition may come from a specific background, but in following this path will consider themselves to be a member of all religions. Regardless of the statements of others in this discussion, I am not sure how a statement such as this, from a known Sufi order, could possibly be construed to mean that all Sufis are Muslim only.
Further, Hazrat Inayat Khan, from whom many western orders trace their lineage, was schooled in Islam, Hinduism and Parsi before entering the Chishti Order of Sufism (he came from India, not the Middle East). The Ruhaniat trace their lineage from Hazrat Inayat Khan through Samuel Lewis ("Sufi Sam") to the Present day. Samuel Lewis came from a Jewish background, studied the Bible and Koran intensely and acheived high levels of initiation Budhism, Zen and Sufism. He was devoted to teaching Sufism as a "universal religion." Thus the Sufis in the Ruhaniat believe themselves to be members of a universal religion. Current leaders and members today are shcooled in Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Budhist, Zen, Zorastrian (and more) practices. If you ask Pir Shabda Kahn (the current leader of the Ruhaniat) whether he is Muslim, he will say, "yes." If you ask him whether he is Christian he will say, "yes." If asked whether he is Jewish, "yes." Buddhist, "yes." And so on. This is one modern example, but it is more or less true for most other western Sufi orders, and is true of at least some Sufi orders in the east (especially in India, see writings about the Chishti Order).
Lastly, many older and more traditionally Islamic Sufi orders have embraced western Sufis as brothers and sisters (Sufi Ruhaniat International has ties to groups in Morocco, Turkey and Syria). If these orders had a serious problem with Ruhaniat teachings (namely that one musn't be a practicing Muslim to be Sufi) then these bonds would probably not exist.
On the subject of Gnosticism, Sufism and relationship to other mystical traditions:
No one, as far as I understand, has proven a direct connection with Christian Gnosticism (except a connection between modern Sufis and modern Gnostics). It is possible that members of each movement heard about each other and responded accordingly. For example, some have said that St. Francis encountered Sufism when on crusade, but this is to my knowledge completely unsubstantiated. Having said that, Sufism is a mystical tradition and shares certain core philosphies with all other mystical traditions (for a good treaties on the subject read: Aldous Huxley's Perrenial Philosphy), that includes Christian Gnosticism.
On the Subject of Sufism predating Islam:
People have stated that Sufism predates Islam. This is probably true in so far as mysticism predates Islam. Thus, people of mystical bent embraced Islam when it first formed and were probably the "first" Sufis. To say that Sufism, in particular, did or didn't predate Islam is probably impossible to establish; mainly because no one is sure where the word "Sufi" even came from. To define "Sufis" as some group that existed before Islam requires that some group called "Sufis" existed before Islam, or that some recognizable group that became "Sufis" existed before Islam. However, the word "Sufi" probably became attached to those who practiced Islamic mysticism some time after they embraced Islam (though the word itself may be older) and it is hard to track down what these groups may have been before they were "Sufi". So it depends on whether one is focused on those who practiced mysticism in the Middle East actually defining themselves as Sufi (to make matters worse some Sufis will say that they are not Sufi), or whether one is focused on the essence of the philosophy itself. Therefore there may be many different answers to this question. I believe much of the current idea that Sufism predates Islam stems from the writings of Idries Shah. It is unclear what he meant by his statements on the matter, but it is quite likely he meant to provoke discussion, particularly on what it actually means to be "Sufi."
A disclaimer and two asides:
Disclaimer: I am a practicing Sufi with the Ruhaniat, and I don't consider myself as solely Muslim. Thus the above statements uses known facts (from the Sufi Ruhaniat International website, and the writings of some of those mentioned in the second aside), and is informed by personal experiences and teachings that I have received. And a note my putting words in Pir Shabda Kahn's mouth, I do know him personally and so have some idea of what he might say if asked those questions.
First aside: Sufis have, in known history, been hard to classify. Ancient scribes have had as much problem describing Sufis as Wikipedia members are having here. Part of this comes from the fact that Sufism is a very diverse and diffuse religion, that does not have easily definable ancient and standing doctrines or traditions. Much of Sufi thought and practice are passed from Teacher to Student through a direct experience rather than in writing (though there is much Sufi writing). Thus Sufism can, in many ways, be thought of as an Oral tradition and can be expected to change and evolve in much the same way. Further, there is no Pope or central Church that defines Sufism. If you ask a thousand Sufis what Sufism is you are likely to get a thousand different answers (at least in particulars). Thus, I find this discussion about trying create an encyclopedic entry for Sufism very interesting. The attempt to clear up biased language that seems to promote Sufism over other religions or that is confusing or doesn't make sense to the average reader should continue (as this is part of Wikipedian philosophy). However, I would urge people to be careful about making too quick of judgements about content. Sufism has never been a single or unified movement, and trying to hammer it into a monolithic definition, such as it IS or ISN'T Islamic, is missing the point.
Second aside: Please do not rely solely on internet sources for your material or facts. There is much heated discussion in the air about who is right and who is not, and there is a lot of information on sufism that is NOT on the web. Having said that I would reccomend reading some modern teachers and practicioners to get a feel for the history of some curent lineages of Sufism (this list is by no means complete). As with all texts, read critically.
Writings in the Western Sufi tradition (as derived from the Chishti order): Pir Hazrat Inayat Kahn, Pir Valayat Inayat Kahn (Inayat Kahn's son, and head of the Sufi Order), Samuel Lewis
A controversial figure (according to some): Idries Shah
The alternatives (according to some): Henry Corbin, Sayyed Hossein Nasr, Annamarie Schimmel
Also much current western Sufism is influenced by the (more ancient) writings of these people: Jalahuddin Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Hafiz, Kabir, also work on the life of Moinadin Chishti
- about sufi orders , well this is a misconception ( only in the west ) that sufis dont accept non-muslaims as students . There have been gazallions of sufis in India & Africa ( at that time predominantly non-muslim ) who tought non-muslims . People like Data Gunj Buksh ( Lahore-Pakistan ) , Moinuddin Chisti ( Ajmer-India ), & Baba Farid ( Multan-Pakistan ) have tought millions ( yes millions!! ) of Hindus in their life times . Thats why I had changed Islamic/non-Islamic with traditional/non-traditional .
- The gonstic paragraph was most probably added by somebody who wasent aware of both sufism & gnosticism .I have removed it .Farhansher 04:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
The root of the word Sufi
Tasavvof is not the root of the word Sufi , but Sufi is the root of the word Tasavvof , the root of the word Sufi itself is a matter of much debate some common opinions include its derivation from Safaa (purity) ( an unlikely one etymologically but in accordance with the nature of Sufism which emphasises on purity of heart , soul etc) , its derivation from Suf meaning a woolen cloth , or even its derivation from Ashab i Soffeh , a certain group of companions of Mohammad .Some even consider the possibility of its derivation from the Greek Sophia which is most unlikey...
>False. Sufi is derived from the word "Suf" which means wool because Sufis wear wool clothing.
- What do you mean, "false"? The poster above you detailed at least four possibilities for the root of the word Sufi. While it is commonly accepted that Suf most likely derives from the woolen clothing, let us not completely discount the fact that there are other possibilities. Avengerx 18:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
