Talk:Symmetry (physical attractiveness)

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Contents 1 Comment 2 Advertisement 3 The Fine Line 4 Pseudoscience 5 Claims 6 Evidence please 7 "It has been proposed that" 8 Marquardt's work was not published 9 The Suzi Malin thing is Tripe 10 Aesthetic claims weakened 11 Page move

[edit] Comment

Isn't this more about facial asymmetry, then? — mark ✎ 18:13, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I suppose it is in a way, but perhaps asymmetry is judged by the lack of symmetry, and thus Facial symmetry is the parent title. It's also about the pursuit of symmetry. violet/riga (t) 18:25, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ah well — never mind, it's that simple. I should be doing other things anyway. Thanks for explaining! — mark ✎ 18:30, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Advertisement

I'm not convinced that much of this, especially the "Golden Ratio" sections, will withstand close examination. Certainly, they present a theory in a very POV way. It looks like a poorly disguised ad for the plastic surgery services of Stephen Marquardt...who also just happens to have a page...which happens to have a link to a "Beauty Analysis" website. I haven't checked yet, but I'd place good money on who owns the website.

This topic is potentially interesting, but... Beska Miltar 12:27, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Parts of this look like original research. 69.140.176.64 23:19, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What does the golden ratio have to do with facial symmetry? This is nonsense.

I've included an external link to tlc.discovery.com – if they include it then surely that indicates some noteworthyness. The fact is that it is a proposed theory which has been reported on websites and television programmes and it's hardly central to the article. It's not like it says to people that they must have plastic surgery and fit the mask in order to have facial symmetry and beauty. violet/riga (t) 09:42, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's an argument from authority--there have been many nonsense "proposed theories" on television, even on channels which happen to have "Learning" in their name. 68.161.208.47 21:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If we can have articles on the Time Cube then this can be included. Please don't just go around removing things. violet/riga (t) 22:04, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Time Cube article is fairly NPOV and does not present as fact assertions like "People of either sex who are considered "attractive" in various cultures have been found to have facial symmetry based on the golden ratio of 1:1.618." Massive sweeping generalizations like this should raise red flags. Considered attractive by whom? Which cultures? How exactly do you "base" symmetry on a ratio, anyway? Claims like this should be more specific and have more support than the word of a single plastic surgeon. Also, with all due respect, you are no more qualified than I am to judge whether or not something should be removed, so don't tell me what the proper way to contribute is. 68.161.208.47 01:12, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, to avoid confusion: I was not the one who wrote "What does the golden ratio have to do with facial symmetry? This is nonsense." above. 68.161.208.47 01:20, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The edits you made were absolutely fine. For the record that is the one part of the article I didn't write, and, while I do believe it deserves inclusion, I think your rewrite presents the information better. violet/riga (t) 09:06, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Fine Line

This article straddles that tantalizingly fine line between fact and the pernicious kind of fiction that poses as pseudoscience. However, if the claims made by the article are strictly confined to the aesthetic, then I personally see little harm. Indeed, articles on popular culture, fashions, and cosmetics, although not important can still be notable. I believe that Wikipedia should not just be an encyclopedia of science and technology.

Having said that, this article does run the risk of Systemic bias of an unexpected sort, one that upholds what Social constructionism terms the beauty myth. Although worth keeping, this article will need a broader cultural perspective (proportion differs between cultures) and a broader historic perspective (those who may be well-proportioned in one era may not in another). Such perspectives provide powerful counterexamples that negate some of the sweeping generalizations now present in this article.

With this in mind, I read the medical sources cited here, and the article does accurately reflect many of their scientific claims. My problem is with the scientific claims themselves. (Dear Admins: Please understand that it does not require any Original research to cite counterexamples that dispute these claims.) I have a problem with the following claims: (1) The correllation between lengths of the 2nd and 4th fingers to facial symmetry ignores particularly important counterexamples, including the beautiful and talented newscaster/actress Bree Walker. (2) In almost every age, concepts of beauty and proportion will differ. Temporarily ignoring U.S. culture's current penchant for disproportionately large breast implants, the post-Renaissance art movement known as Mannerism celebrated the disproportionately long necks of its female subjects, and who among us who weigh more than 100 kilograms would have liked to have lived in the time of Rubens.

Finally, in studying the bone structure of the skull and making scientific claims places this in a longstanding tradition of phrenology and craniometry. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Although Phrenology had long been regarded as a pseudoscience it did call attention to be brain as the residence of the mind. It also led the way to localizing areas of specialization in the brain. Even though Phenology got the facts wrong by judging ones character by the bumps on one's head, it did direct attention in a useful direction.

With these thoughts in mind, I plan to edit this article. Vonkje 02:51, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By all means expand the article. I wrote most of it based on the references presented and a few other things I came across. At no point does it say anything that is concrete fact, just various proposals and theories. You seem to have some good ideas about how to progress the article so go for it, and good luck! violet/riga (t) 22:20, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pseudoscience

Is this considered a Pseudoscience? I'm not familiar with the topic. Just wondering. 12.220.47.145 18:28, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oops! I should have constructed the link in my comments to Pseudoscience. That article should answer your question and more. The facts stated as science in this article need more verification. Fortunately aesthetic rather than health claims were made by the plastic surgeon. Such claims are more easily verified but would still require proper experimental design. I can describe what that design would look like on this page (but not in the article) if anyone is interested.

Vonkje 22:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Claims

We really need to be careful about health claims here. I read the article relating the ratio of the lenghts of the 2nd and 4th fingers to other possible bone anomalies (ie: facial asymmetry) and related health effects. The authors were asserting correlation not causality. The use of the word "determinant", however denotes causality. I replaced it with the words "associated with".

The aesthetic claim of univerality as in "universal determinant" was removed until a double blind cross-cultural study that associates attractiveness to facial symmetry is published in a refereed journal, and cited herein. I personally would be interested in the relative importance of facial symmetry to skin condition, condition of connective tissues, age, expression, hair and eye colour, culture and ethnicity, etc. Vonkje 1 July 2005 16:01 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence please

This stuff does indeed look like pseudoscience. If facial symmetry is such an important factor in attractiveness how come Angelina Jolie for example looks so attractive despite having a noticeably assymetric face. Same with Katie Holmes. How come attractive people look just as attractive when viewed in profile or at an angle that obscures part of their face. Kuratowski's Ghost 01:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

It certainly has exceptions to the rules, which are merely the theories of some people. violet/riga (t) 10:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Removed vulgar language

[edit] "It has been proposed that"

The phrase "it has been proposed that..." is the hallmark of an unencyclopedic hack of an article. Who proposed that? Cite your sources or stick to your 'blog. This is tripe.

I concur .. I have been looking that that "it has been proposed" phrase for almost eight months now and it has been a rock in my shoe. The only reason why I have not changed it yet is that this article seems to be making aesthetic (rather than health) claims. I rank aesthetic claims up there with the latest news on Madonna (entertainer), who, by the way, is pretty asymmetric her own self. (see last month's National Enquirer) .. Then again, what the hey, I'll go on ahead and change it .. wish me luck. Vonkje 01:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I found who proposed it, read his article in the (British) Jounal of Orthodontics. He never used the word determinant as in determinant of health Rather, he made the sounder (albeit weaker) claim of an indicator of health. This article might finally be inching its way toward being encyclopedic Vonkje 21:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Marquardt's work was not published

I have copied and pasted the entry summarizing his work here, in the event someone finds that this work was indeed published in a medical or dental journal after 2005. (See the external link by the UIC School of Dentistry which puts this work into context). Vonkje 21:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Plastic surgeon Stephen Marquardt has developed a highly symmetric beauty mask marked with various outlines of facial features based on the golden ratio (1:1.618). He has published a study which claims to find that people of either sex who are considered "attractive" in various cultures have facial features which fit the mask.

... and here's the link which, BTW, is dead: Vonkje 21:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• "Doctor May Have Beauty's Number" – a look at Marquardt's "Golden Ratio" at tlc.discovery.com.

[edit] The Suzi Malin thing is Tripe

I have gradually weeded this article of POV and it is starting to resemble something encyclopedic with one exception. The attractiveness section featuring Malin's work, neologisms and all, looks more like opinion than fact. This is especially true since the health claims in this article had been (realistically) scaled back based on my almost competent scholarship.

Once we get a consensus that indeed this section is tripe, and we remove it, we can then appeal to the larger Wikipedia community to have an expert who is either a Dentist, Oral Surgeon, or a Maxillar-facial Surgeon review this for balance, accuracy and nuance. (This article might still be making unsubstantiated claims -- we need expert review here). Vonkje 22:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It is worthy of inclusion. The related book has been published and received significant attention, thus making it notable. True, it can be viewed as rubbish, but it is a theory that someone has made that has become noteworthy. violet/riga (t) 15:23, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aesthetic claims weakened

I found the following footnote on page 364 of a book titled: The Face, by Daniel McNeill, copyright 1998, which I quote verbatim. (Warning To avoid plagarism, incorporating this wording into the article requires paraphrasing, while maintaining accuracy of fact, balance, and nuance).

"Beauty is not a single quality. It involves a mix of signals, especially of averageness, sexual maturity, youth, and health."

"(But) what about symmetry? It is crucial to mating success in certain animals, especailly flying ones. ... Hence some scientists suggested that symmetry makes people's faces more attractive as well, and one experiment found that it did." – K. Grammer and R. Thornhill "Human (Homo sapiens) Facial Attractivenss and Sexual Selection: The Role of Symmetry and Averageness," Jounal of Comparative Psychology, vol. 108, pp 233-242, 1994.

"Unfortunately, follow-up studies failed to replicate this finding .." – C. A. Samuels, G. butterworth, T Roberts, L. Graupner, and G. Hole, "Facial Aesthetics: Babies Prefer Attractiveness to Symmetry," Perception, vol. 23, pp. 823-831, 1994.

"Psychologist Rotem Kowner discovered that people actually deemed mild facial asymmetry more attractive, especially in the young." – R. Kowner "Facial Asymmetry and Attractiveness Judgments in Developmental Perspective," Jounal of Experimental Psychology, vol. 22, pp. 662-675, 1996.

Initially, I felt better about the aesthethic claims than the health claims in this article. Now that the health claims have been brought into perspective, I find that the aesthetic claims have less merit than I initially thought. This article will need rework. Vonkje 23:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

Bodily symmetry is just as or more important than facial symmetry, especially in animal studies. Unless someone plans on doing a symmetry page for each body part, I will move this page to symmetry (physical attractiveness). I just wrote the complementary averageness page, but I didn't list it as “facial averageness” (too narrow), because there have been image morphing studies done on both full-body symmetry and averageness. --Sadi Carnot 03:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be a lot of flow on this page, so I will move it. If there is big issue we can always move it back or discuss alternatives. As it stands, we need full sub articles beauty as a function of averageness, symmetry, and youthfulness, at a minimum. --Sadi Carnot 03:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)