Talk:Temple (Latter Day Saints)
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[edit] New WikiProject proposed
I have proposed a new WikiProject which would aim to maintain and improve all of the temple articles listed here. If you have any interest, you can leave comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement#LDS Temples WikiProject. --Lethargy 02:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I like the initiative - I have some suggestions at WP:LDS -Visorstuff 16:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] External link spam
It is not necessary, in my opinion, to have the exact same links in every article about temples. Almost all of them currently contain at least some of these links:
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Official Site
- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - Visitors Site
- Mormon Temple Ordinances
- Mormon Temples and Secrecy
- Mormon Temple Worship - BBC Religion & Ethics
- Mormon Temples
- History of Mormon Temples
- Mormon Temples and Masonry
- Resources for the History and Symbolism of Mormon Temples
I am completely fine with having links about the specific temple mentioned in the article, but when general temple information is added to every page, all we are doing is spamming. Some of these links would probably be acceptable in the main temple article (this one), but not every one.
Is anyone opposed to removing general links from these articles? --Lethargy 21:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- I created a template for each temple page which hopefully covers some of these issues. I was thinking about putting these common links into their own template so they can be changed at a global level. Bytebear 06:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Although that would certainly make them easier to maintain, it would still put links to general sites about temples in each article, rather than links about that specific temple. Wikipedia has a guideline somewhere stating that internal links are preferred over external links; most temple articles already have a See also section which links to this article, where they can find more information and external links about temples in general. --Lethargy 20:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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- I was thinking about it, and I do think that the external links section should be specific to the temple article. Ideally it should be a reference to the content of the article. But each temple article should have in the "See Also" section a link to this artcile, and probably to the LDS main arcticle and to list of temples. So there would still be a set of general links for each temple article. Bytebear 21:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Bad Citations/ possible spam
I'm new to wikipedia, and know that anything mormon is a touchy subject, so am not going to take action myself, but just point out what I assume are problems/irregularites in the "citations" of the "Controversies" "Exclusive Temple Weddings" section of the article.
Citation 2 (the first of the paragraph) takes you to an anti-mormon propoganda site with a clearly biased POV, and many speculative, skewed, and some downright false statements about the temple and the church. I don't see how this link qualifies the statement "When a couple chooses to marry in the temple where a parent does not possess a temple recommend, the parent(s) may feel resentment and pain". Does that statement need a link? If so it would seem that a newspaper or other article that quotes parents discussing said feelings would do well, whereas just a webpage (a propaganda one at that) arbitrarily stating that it is so ( from the page: "LDS temple rules forbid non-LDS parents from seeing their own children’s temple wedding. This leaves many parents literally standing outside the temple, devastated at being denied this moment in their child’s life. Matters are made worse by the fact that the temple wedding ceremony is so secret that it must not be discussed even with the parents afterward.") doesn't seem like a ligitimate or useful source. I suspect it may have added to draw people to the site.
Citation 3 supposedly qualifies the statement: "For those couples who prefer a non-temple marriage first, the couple is required to wait at least one year to be sealed." The citation takes you to another anti-mormon site that discusses in depth the changes to the temple ceremony and does hit upon the topic, but is not an authoritative source by any means, once again a biased webpage, arbitrarily stating that something is so. Of course, it is so, but it just doesn't seem like the right citation. Seems footnote 3 would be the correct citation here as it cites official church policy on the topic, verifying the statement, so I do not see the need for the link.
Citation 4 takes us to the same source as citation 2. It is meant to qualify the statement "Critics claim that this is simply an intrusive and divisive way used to persuade members to donate more, while at the same time, putting pressure on non-Mormons to convert". OK, so we are citing the fact that critics claim something... this one is a little different. The author of the webpage, although making all sorts of arbitrary claims of fact without citation, obviously qualifies as a critic. However, although he says many things about temple marraiges (some skewed or taken out of context, some false), he does not say anything about it meant to put pressure on non-Mormons to convert. And the "this" in "critics claim that this" would seem to be a pronoun referring to the church's specification, per the previous sentence.
I am not experienced in wikidom; I just wanted to bring these things up as I am probably one of the few people interested in the criticisms to click on the links and once i did it became obvious that they were bogus citations meant to lead readers to propaganda.
All in all, this paragraph seems to be pretty rough, and could use some organization and cleanup. While the controversies regarding temple marriage definitely exist and should be noted, it could sure be cleaned up, stated more concisely and professionaly, and it seems some legitimite sources should be used. (or none at all would be better than the spam that is currently there.)
Thanks --KÆN 04:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Legality issues
Some time ago, there was a discussion on this page (at its former location) concerning the legality and appropriateness of this article containing specific information on temple ceremonies. After reading through it, I'm not sure if any conclusion was reached. While it's not an issue at the present time, I think it's inevitable that in the future, specific ceremony details will be added. There's also the related question of whether to accept images of things held sacred by CoJCoLDS members: garmets, temple clothing, and depictions of temple ceremonies (whether real or re-enacted). When the issue presents itself, it'd be good to have the question settled — it may prevent a massive edit war, or at least help cool it down some.
For those unfamiliar with why this question is important, a brief explanation is in order. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hold the specific details of ceremonies held in temples sacred and secretive. According to official Church policy (link forthcoming), it is not permissible for members to discuss details of ceremonies outside of the temple (i.e. specific wording used in ceremonies). Combine the controversy that exists about LDS Church practices with the curiosity of the general public and the free speech allowed by the internet and Wikipedia, and we've got a recipe for conflict.
As I see it, there are two questions at hand here: 1. Is it legal to display information, whether written or through multimedia, about temple ceremonies on Wikipedia which is not disclosed in LDS Church materials? 2. Is it moral to display such information? Or, perhaps a better way to state the question, Even if it is legal to display such information, should Wikipedia do so?
As I've mentioned before, I think it's important to resolve this issue before it comes to a head. There's a number of policies which could apply here, which I'll start to add in in the near future. For now, I'll create a subsection for each question, although I understand if there's some crossover. I also realize that the questions may need to be revised. Tijuana Brass 00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
- Another issue you neglect to mention is this: Is this the appropriate article to have such details? This article covers temple of all groups within the Latter Day Saint movement, including the Community of Christ, which does not do endowment ceremonies in their temples. There is an article (Endowment (Latter Day Saints) that covers such details, and this discussion should probably be moved to that article, and any information about the ordinance itself should be discussed there, and not in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bytebear (talk • contribs) 02:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Is it legally permissible to display material (be it written, photographic, video, or audio) concerning temple ceremonies that the LDS Church would not want released to the general public?
- Comment - Please refrain from comments that divert from the legal question unnecessarily, such as lengthy theological statements. Statements should be based upon policy and verifiable sources, not personal opinions. As for me, I'm withholding judgment for the time being. However, the precedent set by the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy seems to indicate that at least some material would be allowed. Tijuana Brass 00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] If it it permissible, should Wikipedia do so?
- Comment - I personally am also withholding a decision on this issue. However, I see little precedent to disallow the display of legal, relevant content on Wikipedia. There have been some occasions where material has been censored — usually involving direct office action, from my understanding — but generally, the possibility of material offending others has not been accepted as a reason for removal. With that said, if such content does find its way online, courtesy demands that some sort of warning or notice be set up advising readers, not unlike the {{spoiler}} tag. Tijuana Brass 00:58, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
