Talk:Tenjin Shinyō-ryū
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They are all the same. I've replaced the text in each with redirects to this page.
also Ueshiba studied a bit of Judo when he was young - not this ryu. I've removed the reference.Peter Rehse 03:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Ueshiba did do Judo when he was young there are no dispute here. But there is a common problem among historians, even Ueshiba son, the late Kissomaru Ueshiba misquoted in one of his books that his father studied Kito ryu instead of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
According to the information gathered through research and interviews done by Aikido journal editor,Mr.Stanly Pranin (Aikido historian) and also by Kubota Sensei(current Tenjin Shinyo Ryu headmaster) indicated that Ueshiba sensei did study tenjin shinyo ryu,(please view the lineage chart provided on the external link).Ueshiba studied under one of Iso Mataemon students by the name of Tozawa Tokusaburo. However he did not spent long time learning Tenjin Shinyo Ryu (maybe for aprox 2-3 years).
the stuff on Goshin Ryu or whatever is totally baseless. On my last visit to Japan around last year, Kubota sensei DID NOT mention or indicated about any changes within the system or any so caled "new stream". This is a mere publicity stunt to promote this particular individual school (breakaway) without any proper approval by the current Tenjin Shinyo Ryu headmaster Kubota Sensei. Why would Kubota Sensei suddenly be "inspired" to change the teachings passed on by his teacher,instead of keeping it pure ? Goshinjyutsu (translated "self defence jujutsu")curiculum is ridiculous, isnt Tenjin Shinyo Ryu system is enough to be used as a self defence art instead of having to augment its "GOSHIN" (self defence) elements ?
Swblock
The above comments on Goshin Ryu are slanderous.
Since 1998, when he first learned of Mr. Calvin Lester, an individual has made a non-stop attempt to discredit the achievements of him. One can only question what his real motives for doing so could be. On the surface, perhaps it is to maintain his self-proclaimed stature as the western authority on the bujutsu, to sell more books from his website? Yet, he doesn't seem to mind others of European descent to have their claims to the koryu. Rather, he only appears to have a deep seated contempt for Mr. Lester.
The fact that an individual traveled to and studied other styles in Japan and was introduced to Kubota Sensei does not make him a notable authority on any of the Koryu, as he achieved full licensure in none as far as anyone can tell. His assertion that Kubota Sensei made no mention of his delineation of Goshin ryu is only a reflection of the lack of respect / trust that Kubota Sensei placed in him. Furthermore, that lack of trust in that individual can not be considered a notable fact for the exclusion of Goshin ryu here in Wikipedia.
Moreover, that individual questions above why Kubota Sensei would do what he did. First of all, it is his, and his alone, perogative as the head of the school to do whatever he wants for the style. Secondly, it is of no one else's concern, including frustrated authors. That individuals understanding of the Tenjin Shinyo style is rudimentary at best. Much of the information provided on the Wikipedia page for Tenjin is lacking completeness. But, there is no way for that individual to know since in all likelihood, he has *NEVER* trained in the style personally.
Imagine, someone who claims to be such an authority on Tenjin Shinyo ryu, yet has never trained for a single day in the ryu. that individual has about a tenth more book knowledge of the style than the public at large. Surely, no one can expect him to be a notable source for either the inclusion or exclusion of anything related to Tenjin, or even the Koryu at large. Wikipedia should reach out directly to those individuals who are certified, knowledgeable sources of information.
On the other hand, *ALL* of the information on Tenjin Shinyo Goshin ryu can be verified. In fact, all documents, some handwritten by Kubota Sensei himself, could be presented as verifiable proof to any Wikipedia authority, assuming that Mr. Lester even cares to agree to such disclosure. Mr. Lester has presented a herculean effort to ignore the misplaced anger of that individual and his actions. But, enough is enough.
So here we seem to have a disagreement working itself out on the talk pages of wikipedia, which is fine, I suppose. As long as it doesn't involve a seesawing of postings and deletions.
When I came upon the article it seemed a little 'school specific' so I attempted to broaden the article and remove bias. I also have never studied Tenjin Shinyo Ryu but relied upon the materials cited in the reference section with a great deal of it coming from Meik Skoss'of Koryu Books. I have no doubt that it lacks completeness and would benefit from additional information, so feel free to do so.
Just a few thoughts;
When in doubt I think it best to provide some sort of reference for the material in contention. (This can even be a personal discussion with an important person in the ryu.) When something is in contention it is usually best to acknowledge the fact, point out what different parties have claimed and sources for this information. That way even if the information is not something you agree with people can know the range of claims and their sources. Also one should always sign their posts in order that people know there is someone willing to stand behind what they have written.
Just an idea.
I've had problems myself with people posting information in my own work that I know to be false. In the end I decided to let them do so with my protest duly noted in "talk" and reference to where true information could be confirmed by the head of the school and a method of contacting that person. They didn't care and posted it anyway as it was to their advantage to do so. I don't think that there is anything I could do to avoid a 'posting fight' otherwise. : ) --Mateo2006 21:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
