Talk:Teresa of Ávila
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
Teresa of Ávila is part of the WikiProject Saints, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Saints on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to saints as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to saints. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. |
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. |
| High | This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. |
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Spain which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details. |
Contents |
[edit] Lloyd DeMause
Lloyd DeMause (Institute for Psychohistory) says the agonies and the ecstasies of the saints and martyrs came as a result of severe neuroticism and psychosis stemming from great abuse and neglect in infancy and childhood. And this is not to be revered but to be recoiled from. The truth can never be cloaked in a cloth or a myth any more than it can be cloaked in trappings of architypal evil, (as what happens when impossibly "bad" people are executed or otherwise abused for crimes which stemmed from the same hideous backgrounds.) All that does is prevent us from really understanding the real truth and then acting upon it with our very powerful human abilities of discernment, reflection and then well-considered rational choice.
Hope this doesn't offend anyone. It wasn't meant to. Actually when I looked up the page which led me to this chat-link, I was searching for some e-reproductions of the Berelini "Theresa" sculpture, a most famous and ravishing piece of art.
Is there any evidence that St. Teresa, or all those saints and martyrs who experienced agonies and ecstacies, suffered "great abuse and neglect in infancy and childhood"? The above seems to me nothing more than a baseless ad hominem attack.
Most people in the world uses metric units. In honor of the internationality of the Wikipedia, would not be better to use them or at least both? --Asierra 22:57, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Actually, the information is intriguing. Maybe a link to sources would be good to present an alternative view?
Then again, "psychohistory" does not sound like an academic subject but one that is grouped with conspiracy theory and pseudoscience.
[edit] Date of death
Teresa of Avila died the 4th of Octobre, the day after – October 15 – is her celebration day. In 1582 the time calender was changed to the Gregorian calendar, and ten days, the 5th to 14th, in the month of October that year was taken away. Xauxa 11:56, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Incorrect Nickname re-direct corrected
This article incorrectly cited Santa Teresa de Avila as being nicknamed the "Little Flower of Jesus," when in fact that nickname accurately belongs to St. Therese of Lisieux. The re-direct was corrected. NOTE: This is an easy mistake to make, since both were nuns of the Carmelite Order named Theresa and their stylized portraits look very similar due to both wearing the characteristic Carmelite habit. Sadly this causes confusion even among devout Catholics. Please DO NOT un- or "re-" correct. Eric Teltschik 15:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] POV?
"Some scholars have misinterpreted the spiritual ecstasy to suggest that St. Teresa had sexual pleasures with God. Some have purported that she even had sexual relations with St. John of the Cross. However, these allegations are "revisionist history" as they contort the meaning and purpose of mysticism and ignore the importance of the spiritual relationship between St. Teresa and St. John as reformers in the Church."
While I'm not arguing that it seems likely that this is probably not looking at the relationships in a well-rounded way, this paragraph seems to have a bit too much POV in it.
I agree. This paragraph needs changing, and these interpretations should be properly presented.
- I've dropped last sentence, and the 3 letters of "mis" as in "misinterpreted". Clinkophonist 12:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Pardon me, but:
"I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God. The pain was so great, that it made me moan; and yet so surpassing was the sweetness of this excessive pain, that I could not wish to be rid of it." St T, quoted in WikiQuote
Surely the simplest, most obvious, likely and parsimonious explanation for these 'visions' is that this woman had a common or garden wet dream, onto which she put the divine spin. Or, to approach the matter from another direction, had this woman experienced an erotic dream leading to orgasm - hardly an unusual event - she would no doubt have no other points of reference with which to intepret the experience.
If any bias or PoV is being applied to this stuff, it must surely be the propagation of the absurd notion that this mundane event was in any way divine - though it may well have been quite nice. --Cdavis999 17:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not certain but I'm fairly sure that the heart and especially the entrails are not erogenous zones, and that is where she is describing as the location of these pains.LessHeard vanU 20:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- Purleaze - she's talking about her insides - a subject of whose physiological details she was doubtless utterly ignorant. References to her 'heart' and 'entrails' could not possibly be much more than metaphor - unless you're really suggesting that these 'pains' (another grasped-for word used in the absence of any familiarity with orgasm) were really located in her ventricles and intestines. I suspect the average person today knows more physiology than a doctor of the mid-16th century.
-
- Why should it be necessary in an encyclopaedia, seeking perfect objectivity, to accept as fact such risible magical thinking when more obvious, rational explanations exist? Would similar credence be given to the hallucinations of Jim Jones, Aum Shinrikyo or David Koresh? Apparently not, judging by their own Wiki entries.
-
- Teresa's delusions should certainly be in her entry, but to grant their accuracy is POV at its worst - a combination of Ad Numeram and Ad Antiquitatem fallacies.
- Cdavis999 11:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
A catholic saint is of course going to say I experienced God in my vagina. Froggo Zijgeb 09:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Gotarrendura
some versions in the spanish wikipedia, said that Teresa of Jesus probably was born in the town of Gotarrendura that is at 12 km north from avila
[edit] Portrayals and such
St. Theresa, and specifically an "interpretation" of her visions, was the subject of a Nigel Wingrove short film, "Visions of Ecstasy". This film remains banned in the United Kingdom on the grounds of blasphemy, the only such film so banned. The composer of the soundtrack, Steven Severin, later reworked the pieces to form part of his cd release "Visions" - an electronic ambient/soundscape style work.
Whilst I have a great respect for other peoples beliefs, without wishing to adhere to any or all, I don't think I am the appropriate person to include any or all of the above in the article, or to propose that it should. If, however, there are editors here who believe that it is noteworthy then some information can be found on the Severin page.LessHeard vanU 13:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
- Whatever... LessHeard vanU 20:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Age question
Currently the article says, "Leaving her parental home secretly one morning in 1534, at the age of 20, Teresa entered the monastery of the Incarnation of the Carmelite nuns at Avila." However, if she were born in 1515, she would not have had her 20th birthday until 1535.
I checked a couple sources, but got conflicting reports. For example, in Saints of the Southwest, she is referred to as being 21 when she entered the monastery.
What is considered the most reliable source as to her age at the time? Or should we change the article to simply say that she was "a young woman, somewhere around the age of 20"? --Elonka 00:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
