Talk:Tesla Roadster

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Contents 1 Tesla not a good green choice? 2 Remove list of colors? 3 availability date? 4 AC Propulsion 5 Fuel efficiency; gasoline equivalence 5.1 Full-cycle Energy-equivalency 5.2 CO2 Emissions 6 Pricing 7 Remove "Criticism and Rebuttal" 8 Nikola Tesla's nationality 9 Confused 10 Stephen Colbert 11 Wh/km 12 Total (monetary) Cost of Ownership?

[edit] Tesla not a good green choice?

You can have a vehicle with similar mileage, similar emissions and much better driving dynamics, range, reliability, confort and practicality for $60 thousand less!!!: http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2070116.003/country/gcf/BMW/new-3-door-bmw-1-series-arrives ChuChingadas 20:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

And this helps improve the article how? Are you proposing a "comparison to other fuel saving vehicles" section? Because I don't see any mention of the tesla on that page. That car is not even a convertable, so the comparison to the tesla is like comparing apples to sandwiches. Plymouths 22:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

reinserting above comment. removing it was not cool. Plymouths 22:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand...

1. Much better driving dynamics? It goes 0-100km/h (0-60mph) in at least twice the time! The performance is not even remotely comparable...

1. Much better emissions and mileage? Quoting: "economy improvements of up to 24 per cent compared to the previous model, while emissions have also been cut by up to 21 per cent"... how can this compare to a electric car which emits 0?

MaxDZ8 talk 10:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

we will have to wait and see but very likely the battery heavy Tesla is not going to have better driving feel and handling as world-renowned BMW.

This point doesn't make much sense, since the curb weight of the BMW 1 Series is 1320–1450 kg, while the weight of the Tesla Roadster is 1140 kg

Electric cars don't have zero emissions. I won't explain why but will leave that as a homework assignment for you.

Yes, they have zero emissions. They emit zero pollution. If you are referring to energy production then say so rather than being smug. Ng.j 19:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove list of colors?

I think the list of colors is way out of scope for an encyclopedia and is making this article somewhat cumbersome. Ideas? -- intgr 09:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

makes sense to me. removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.103.116.104 (talk • contribs).

Come to think of it, should the same be done to the 'Dimensions' section? I don't think it's really useful to anyone. -- intgr 23:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed with a whole lot of other cruft. -- intgr 18:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of removal, the "Criticism" and "Rebuttal" headers seem awfully like a pissing match, which should take place on the talk page, and not in the actual article. There should be a Criticism header, but the rebuttal points can be merged into it. Drogue 03:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] availability date?

I put it as 2007 in List of hybrid vehicles. If that is incorrect, please correct it and remove this entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.103.116.104 (talk • contribs).

It has already been removed as it is not a hybrid vehicle (eg, petrol-electric combo), but a battery electric vehicle. It's already on the list of production battery electric vehicles. -- intgr 18:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AC Propulsion

It seems appropriate to acknowledge Wikipedia's promotional effects -- and use them to honor and promote innovation. We should allow readers to not just "follow the money" but "follow the innovation". That seems important in the same way the Connections (TV series) was important in offering an innovation-threaded view of history instead of the more tradional war & conquest-threaded views. (forgiving its similarities to People magazine)

The innovation contributed by AC Propulsion merits more than a footnote. It should nicely assist readers following innovation threads by citing AC Propulsion's contribution in the body of the article.

The link on the tZero page semed about right:

Some of the technologies developed for the tzero live on in the Venturi Fetish, the Wrightspeed X1, and in modified form in the Tesla Roadster

So I added similar text here.

--Lonestarnot 16:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fuel efficiency; gasoline equivalence

Although EV cars have much higher fuel efficiency than combustion engines, the calculations stated for the Tesla should be corrected in favor of primary energy equivalence. In essence, the formula as presented neglects the poor energy efficiency of electricity production of around 33%. The energy efficciency of the Tesla should therefore be multiplied by 0.33.

This would still yield fuel efficienies of almost 55m/gallon (against 164) or a consumptino of around 4.3 liters/100km.

These values are still good but not as fantastic (wrong) as the initial calculations. For the quality of Wikipedia primary energy efficiency should be used.

I havn't effected any changes in the main article yet because I would like to find a more reliable source for the electricity generation efficiency first. If someone finds it, go ahead.

--TomTompa 18:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

When I added the fuel efficiency section I too was concerned about choosing the "right" formula and the "right" values to use in that formula. For instance, the DOE regulation cites a generating efficiency of T_g=0.328, Tesla Motors' white paper cites another study's finding of 41% for the entire grid in one section and uses a third 60% generating efficiency in another section. Choosing the right formula is also of concern as it seems the end use of the derived number often drives the analysis. In any case, I could not figure out the formula behind Tesla Motor's 135 mpg figure (reverse engineering using 34.3MJ/L for gas & 110Wh/km for the roadster, convert, then multiply by 75% - a 25% "safety margin" - does yield 135 mpg. Interesting - how did they choose 25% safety?)

The first fuel efficiency equation was meant to be comparable to the typical Monroney labels' "station-to-wheel" efficiency (that label also omits well-to-station efficiencies). The second equation from the DOE regulation includes primary energy efficiency for both the USA electric grid and the crude oil to gas station path but then goes on to add a "'fuel content' factor" to quantify conservation and scarcity of fuels in the USA.

The discussion of wide spread adoption of new fuel sources (e.g. electricity, hydrogen, bio-diesel, ethanol, coal gassification) certainly highlights the need for more extensive fuel efficiency analysis than offered by EPA City/Highway mpg numbers. One way for the Roadster article to handle this added complexity might be to simply reference Wikipedia's Fuel efficiency article or another (new?) article that can address the issue in more detail.

I digress, but hopefully the referenced article would describe several of the many aspects of "fuel efficiency" and provide names for those numbers. For instance, the article might discuss various views of efficiency as:

• Monetary cost to the consumer per distance
• CO₂ emissions by the vehicle per distance
• Fuel cycle CO₂ emissions
• Fuel cycle monetary costs (i.e. different subsidies and taxes might alter the monetary cost to the consumer)
• Political costs of a given fuel to a nation-state

--Mwarren us 02:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving this request for discussion from the main article:

Using the average 8,000 Wh of energy per gallon, the 56 kWh battery capacity equals 7 gal of gasoline, so for the stated range of 250 miles this gives an equivalent of about 35 mpg; over an order of magnitude lower than the CAFE equivalent - clearly there needs to be some discussion about agreement on a standard of comparison since these values are so different. --User:67.174.240.33 20:44, 05 March 2007

The figure of 8000 Wh/gal (presumed) is the amount of energy that a typical gasoline engine can extract from a gallon of gasoline input. The amount of energy initially available in the gasoline is closer to 33000 Wh/gal according to most sources (some cited in the main article). I've added a "citation needed" tag to User:71.202.108.49's 05:19, 25 September 2006 comment to ask about the source for the extraction efficiency numbers. Thanks for pointing out the problem in this section.

Using 33705 Wh/gal from the DOE results in an equivalent tank capacity of just 1.66 gallons of gasoline and 150.5 mpg (1.56 l/100km) using a bulk energy analysis (normalizing 250 mi/1.66 gal). Using Wh/km efficiency, the suggested bulk calculation yields 56 kWh/250 mi or 139.3 Wh/km on the EPA Highway cycle. This is certainly higher energy usage than quoted in the white paper. I don't think that Tesla Motors has explicitly cited the cycle they used to determine the Roadster's cited 110Wh/km efficiency, however, their footnote 8 (see below under "Wh/km") implies that the figure came from a 60mph constant speed test.

Update Mar 12, 2007: This discussion does point out a possible source for the 135mpg figure quoted by Tesla's press releases. The bulk 56kWh/250mi leads to about 130mpg for 33705Wh/gal gasoline.

Update Mar 14, 2007: See http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=poDgN8KIZ_7q6mQqb2izMZQ for more detailed calculations.

--Mwarren us 23:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully User:kslays will read this discussion page (update: yes! and read it quickly too. Thx!). To complete the cost analysis, some basis for the cost of gasoline per mile needs to be cited. Where did that come from? Thanks! --Mwarren us 02:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to make it look fancy with long fraction bars to keep track of the units, but here's a couple of ways of putting it:

• (3.00dollars/gallon) / (0.01dollars/mile) = 300mile/gallon
  
• (0.01dollars/mile)*(300miles/gallon) = 3.00dollars/gallon
  

If you think about it, if the Roadster uses 1 cent per mile, in 300 miles you will have spent 300 cents, or three dollars. The crux of my contribution (and the one I'm doubting) is the assumption of $3.00/gallon. At 3 cents, it's 300miles/$.03=100mpg. Also, I need to cite the 1 cent/mile and 3 cents/mile, but I believe it's elsewhere in the article. I'll do it tomorrow or Monday if nobody else gets to it first. -kslays 02:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. I originally thought the article needed a citation for the gasoline engine cost/distance; but you covered the Roadster figures quite nicely and your equations here cleared up the confusion for me (Doh! to me). Thank you. Mwarren us 05:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

ICE cost/distance is a separate issue that I didn't cover and so needs no citation. It can be calculated the same way though. For a car that gets 30mpg, it costs 10 cents/mile to drive at 3 bucks a gallon. $.10/mile*30mpg = $3.00/gal. I've heard it costs about 15-30 cents per mile to drive most cars, including devaluation and wear and tear, but I have no citation. -kslays 15:53, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Tesla Motor's FAQ says under the "Service" section that

How much service does the Tesla Roadster require?

Far, far less than gasoline-powered cars. Most cars require service every 3,000 to 5,000 miles. The Tesla Roadster has no motor oil or oil filters to change, no smog equipment to check, no air filters to replace, no power steering fluids to refill. We feel confident that the only service your Tesla Roadster will require for the first 100,000 miles is tire and brake inspection. But we’ll be happier to see you once a year or every 25,000 miles or so, just to check in.

I think the statement "... the Roadster would cost the same to drive as a gasoline car..." would be more accurate by saying "...the Roadster's fuel cost would be the same as a gasoline car...". Maintenance costs seem to me to be a separate issue from Fuel Efficiency and might warrant a separate paragraph.

--Mwarren us 17:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Full-cycle Energy-equivalency

First, thanks Mwarren us for all the work you're doing to improve this article. The well-to-wheel full-cycle energy-equivalency analysis doesn't seem right to me because the mpg equivalence numbers are so low. The wiki article on full-cycle leads me to believe it is an attempt at comparing the 'total' cost of energy to run the vehicle. For an electric car, that should include mining the natural gas/coal/etc., trucking it to the power plant, turning it into electricity, transmission losses to the plug, and efficiency of the car. For a gasoline car, this should include the mining of the oil, trucking, refinement energy cost, trucking to gas pump, and efficiency of the car. The numbers people are posting on the Tesla blog say it costs 12kWh to refine a gallon of gas, which alone would power the Roadster for 50-60 miles. And that's not even counting burning the gasoline for electricity! Now to dig around for a ref for that refinement value... -kslays 15:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you - I've tried to negotiate a middle way through many different opinions. It would be nice for the Roadster's full-cycle energy efficiency be higher, however, the Roadster does compete with Ferraris and Porsches; I wonder what the full cycle energy equivalency is for the competition! All of the factors you mention are discussed in the DOE report in Federal Register Vol. 64 No. 113 (already cited in the article) and I included more opinions about them in my response (above) to User:TomTompa. It's a really big topic, but not exactly specific to the Roadster; it's just that the Roadster gets the discussion going. Here is probably the most relevant section from that DOE report:

".... Therefore, the PEF (petroleum equivalency factor) includes a term for expressing the relative energy efficiency of the full energy cycles of gasoline and electricity. This term, the gasoline equivalent energy content of electricity factor, abbreviated as Eg, is defined as:

Eg = gasoline-equivalent energy content of electricity = (Tg * Tt * C) Tp where:

Tg = U.S. average fossil-fuel electricity generation efficiency = 0.328

Tt = U.S. average electricity transmission efficiency = 0.924

Tp = Petroleum refining and distribution efficiency = 0.830

C = Watt-hours of energy per gallon of gasoline conversion factor = 33,705 Wh/gal

Eg = (0.328 * 0.924 * 33705)/0.830 = 12,307 Wh/gal

The derivation of these values is straightforward but lengthy and is therefore not discussed in this notice. Details on the assumptions, calculations, and data sources used to derive these values are described in materials contained in Docket No. EE–RM–99–PEF..."

I wish the docket materials were also available online. These numbers are for the average USA electricity grid. That grid will become more efficient as it adopts the latest, 60% efficient Advanced Turbine Technology and power plants can more economically scrub their emissions. Even better, individuals can choose to use even cleaner electricity. For example, if a particular Roadster is charged using "green" power (solar, wind, hydro, tide, geothermal, etc...), then its' specific petroleum equivalent efficiency is nearly infinite as no gasoline is involved when refueling the Roadster.Mwarren us 20:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

How would you calculate the full cycle energy use for an ICE car that gets eg 30mpg? What is the ICE formula? How do you add in the energy cost of drilling, transporting, and refining the gasoline? I think the numbers are misleading if left alone without comparison on the Tesla Roadster page. Perhaps we could say, "For comparison, the Porsche 911's full cycle energy use is XXmpg and the Toyota Prius' is XXmpg." -kslays 20:08, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done a few web searches (varying these terms: well-to-wheel mpg (toyota OR ford OR honda) ~refine ~transport (~drill OR ~well OR ~mine)) and haven't been able to come up with any way to calculate well-to-wheel numbers for ICE vehicles. It's really not an apples-to-apples comparison to state the Tesla Roadster well-to-wheel mpg which people will compare with the tank-to-wheel mpg numbers commonly used for their ICE. The article needs to either give some well-to-wheel mpg comparison numbers for common ICEs, or list only the tank(battery)-to-wheel mpg efficiency equivalent for the Roadster. Any thoughts on this? -kslays 18:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Here are some links:

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/index.html

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/sample_results.html

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/greet_1-7_beta.html

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/epact/pdfs/ghg_guidance.pdf

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/273.pdf

-kslays 21:23, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The factor "T_p = Petroleum refining and distribution efficiency = 0.830" from the DOE regulation accounts for the "well-to-station" portion of the gasoline fuel cycle in the USA.

To convert a standard Monroney sticker value to a full cycle energy equivalent, convert with T_p. For example, the Toyota Prius achieves 55mpg and uses 381Wh/km (assuming 33705 Wh/gal gasoline) station-to-wheel. To get the full cycle value, multiply mpg by Tp=0.83 to account for the refining and transportation energy use - 45.7 mpg, or divide Wh/km by Tp=0.83 - 459 Wh/km full cycle. The same adjustment applies to all vehicles fueled completely with gasoline (including of course the Prius), therefore, Monroney sticker numbers can be compared to each other with or without the adjustment. The 329mpg, 49mpg and 87mpg numbers for the Roadster already include the 0.83 factor and can be directly compared to EPA sticker numbers.

When other fuels with different full cycle efficiencies are introduced, more complicated comparisons are needed. Another way to compare vehicles' full cycle energy use might be using Wh/km. Charging the Roadster with electricity from the "average" USA electric grid (efficiency = Tg * Tt = 0.328 * 0.924 = 30.3% ) means that the full-cycle energy use is 133 Wh/km (tank-to-wheel) / 86% charger efficiency (station-to-tank) / 30.3% (well-to-station) = 512 Wh/km full-cycle.

Interestingly, gasoline has a more efficient (83%) "well-to-station" energy cycle than the USA electric grid. Tesla Motor's white paper "The 21st Century Electric Car" includes more examples, mentions that diesel fuel's "well-to-station" efficiency (90.1%) is even better and uses 52.5% efficiency for a natural gas powered electric grid. Oh, and depending on the specific study cited, these efficiency numbers vary. Mwarren us 00:00, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. That's a very helpful explanation. -kslays 02:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CO₂ Emissions

What would be really useful from the perspective of comparing the environmental impact of the Tesla Roadster with other cars - but I'm not sure I've calculated it correctly - would be a comparison of the full-cycle CO₂ emissions of the Tesla per mile/kilometre compared with petrol or hybrid cars. I've found figures indicating that the average CO₂ emissions of the US electric grid are 1.34lb CO₂/kWh = 0.61kg CO₂ per kWh delivered. EV World Blogs If that's correct (is it?), the total CO₂ emissions of the Tesla on the EPA combined cycle would be 81g CO₂/km. That can be compared with EU combined cycle figures of 104g CO₂/km for the Toyota Prius, 109g CO₂/km for the most efficient small petrol car and 196g CO₂/km for the Lotus Elise, which is the car the Tesla Roadster is based on. Car CO₂ emissions I don't know if EU figures are well-to-wheel, or tank-to-wheel. I also don't know how comparable the EPA and EU combined cycles are. Simon d 12:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The EU figures quoted above are tank-to-wheel. Well-to-wheel is about 12% higher.

I've now got some consistent EPA figures to do the calculations with. The Prius has an EPA combined MPG of 55 and the Elise has an EPA combined MPG of 26 (according to www.fueleconomy.gov). The EPA says that driving the Prius 15000 miles a year would emit 3.4 US tons (3.06 tonnes) and the Elise would emit 7.1 US tons (6.4 tonnes). The Tesla should emit 81g/km x 1.602km/mile x 15000 miles = 1.95 tonnes (2.16 US tons). That implies that the emissions of the Tesla are 63% of the Prius and 30% of the Elise. 55/0.63=87.3 and 26/.30 = 86.7. That implies that the CO₂ emissions of the Tesla are equivalent to those of a petrol car achieving 87mpg on the EPA combined cycle. Shouldn't that go in the article? Simon d 15:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Tesla Motors' paper "The 21st Century Electric Car" (pdf), page 4, also has CO₂ calculations for six high efficiency cars along with their assumptions and references (their figures lead to 41.6 g/km for the Roadster). Well-to-Wheel Analysis of Greenhouse Gas Emissions of Automotive Fuels in the Japanese Context - Well-to-Tank Report from a Toyota research group has a very nice chart comparing CO₂ emissions. For novel, concise and eye-opening information, Martin Eberhard's presentation from his Technology Comparison blog entry has even more ways to compare the environmental impact of driving.

Asking "If that's correct (is it?)", however, really goes to the heart of the matter; full-cycle analysis seems to mostly be lengthy and full of assumptions which can greatly alter the outcome of the analysis. I'm not sure this article is the right place to discuss all of the different ways to analyze the efficiency of automobiles. The Tesla Roadster does upset some common assumptions and thus instigates a lot of conversation. How about creating a new article to cover these topics? Some suggestions for the new article and topics for it to cover are listed above. Also, it probably makes sense to put in more prominent references to the Tesla white paper and to Mr. Eberhard's presentation for more information. Mwarren us 02:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Added more prominent references to Tesla's "The 21st Century Electric Car" and to Mr. Eberhard's presentation.Mwarren us 23:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pricing

The "base price" of the Roadster has now ([1]) been announced to be $92,000, but the first 200 models were all sold with "all options included" at $100,000. --Steve Pucci | talk 00:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remove "Criticism and Rebuttal"

I think we should remove the criticism and rebuttal sections. The tag at the top, {{future automobile}}, is enough to signal readers that information may change once the car is released. Future cars from Ferrari, Porsche, BMW, and others don't have a criticism section. Also, it seems a bit ridiculous that the electric Tesla Roadster is criticized for not being green enough while the other $100k cars that produce so much more pollution are not. The criticism and rebuttal sections are written in a conversational, un-encyclopedic tone and are comprised of entirely unreferenced claims. -Kslays 17:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. To leave a door open to discussion, I've opted to comment them. This definetly needs to be discussed on the talk page before being finalized in a presentable version!
MaxDZ8 talk 09:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed them to clean up the article. If anyone wants them they'll always be available through the history tab. -kslays 17:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right. Good thing it was removed.Sacor1192 03:05, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nikola Tesla's nationality

He is born in Croatia but is Serbian....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_tesla

[edit] Confused

The Tesla Roadster is the first fully electric automobile to be produced by electric car firm Tesla Motors under the supervision of Patrick Meyer(43) whos all about putting lots of poop on that motor.

poop?

[edit] Stephen Colbert

Is the engine seriously design by Stephen Colbert, as the article claims? 208.51.59.132 23:55, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Of course! Didn't you know? You need to watch a lot more TV. +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wh/km

I've tried to reduce this articles petrol-centricness by minimising the tendency to use mpg or CO2 at every opportunity. When comparing electric cars, or trying to calculate running costs, Wh/km, or Wh/mile, is the standard and more useful measure. The equivalence debate belongs in the "fuel efficiency" section alone.

One thing I note though is that Tesla don't state the test cycle for their 110 Wh/km. I suppose it's too much to hope for that it was evaluated using the standard UNECE R101 test cycle. (Is there a US EPA equivalent?) --KJBracey 16:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I've just spotted that their 110 Wh/km is stated as "energy used from the battery". R101 requires that energy usage is measured from the charging port (as it's the only sensible way to compare cars). Given their 86% figure, that drops them to 95 Wh/km, in R101 terms. Just goes to highlight the need for proper enforcement of standards in this area. I'll change the article accordingly. Still don't know their test cycle though... --KJBracey 16:47, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ahem. Too used to thinking in mpg, rather than gpm. That should, of course, be 130 Wh/km.--KJBracey 16:56, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for noticing this. We should bug them on their blog to use R101, or at least give Wh/km from the outlet, not the battery. -kslays 17:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for isolating the petrol-centricness. It's good to keep it confined. Footnote 8 in Tesla Motor's white paper "The 21st Century Electric Car" indirectly references a 60mph constant speed test cycle. This is a very common way to "test" electric cars. Mwarren us 22:37, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, a rather optimistic figure, if that's what they used. R101 requires the same urban+extra-urban cycle used for measuring petrol car efficiency to be used for measuring electric efficiency and range. --KJBracey 09:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The bulk analysis method suggested above (in the Fuel Efficiency discussion) also suggests that 110Wh/km was derived on a cycle different from the EPA "highway" cycle.--Mwarren us 05:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Total (monetary) Cost of Ownership?

Should this article retain the TCO section? Tesla Motors specifically chose not to compete on a Total (monetary) Cost of Ownership basis and other Wikipedia automotive articles do not discuss Total Cost of Ownership. I vote no on the TCO section. There are just too many unknowns (insurance cost? depreciation? repair cost? "typical" financing? etc...) and, even if a good TCO could be calculated, there is little data for comparison in Wikipedia. Edmunds.com's "True Cost to Own" system explains one set of factors to calculate TCO but those factors are not yet available for the Tesla Roadster. Mwarren us 07:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to make much sense anyway. By sure it shouldn't be a direct comparison (there should be another article, or a note on other cars and let the reader take considerations). Also, some data of their calculation seems way off (3$ per cell? 2000$ for 100+ miles? 100k roadesters/year?).
Furthermore, it doesn't take in consideration the satisfaction of producing your fuel yourself (priceless). I believe it should be considerably rewritten, checked, worked on. In the actual form, it shouldn't be there.
MaxDZ8 talk 08:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)