Talk:The Last Supper (Leonardo)

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The link from the top photo doesn't work. when you click on the photo it leads to a broken picture.

An event mentioned in this article is a May 28 selected anniversary.

I think this should be moved to The Last Supper (painting). Disambiguation is generally done in categories (and The Last Supper is not a Leonardo) so that it is consistent and easy to guess how articles are disambiguated. If there are two paintings with the name, it should be at The Last Supper (Leonardo painting) or something similar. Tuf-Kat

It seems to me that a number of works of art are identified by artist, aren't they? - Montréalais

If that's the way it's done in Wikipedia, then I guess it's alright with me. Probably not worth changing anyway. Tuf-Kat

Whoa, why did the last restoration take 22 years? This should be explained. Kent Wang 00:57, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Lengthiness of Most Recent Restoration

Someone has asked for an explanation of why the most recent restoration took over twenty years.

Brambilla was using high tech methods that operated at the micron level. "Using the above technologically advanced techniques for analysis and employing the use of solvents to remove multiple layers, Pinin Brambilla faced an extremely slow and meticulous process. Often, only an area the size of a postage stamp was cleaned each day."

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~lbianco/project/restoration.html#recent

Although I have not read this book which documents the above restoration process, those wanting to know more of the details about it, and in particular, why it may have taken so long, may be interested in this reference:

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/hfs.cgi/00/14227.ctl

[edit] Controversy

This section is redundant and should be removed. 69.248.65.105 06:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I just restored the paragraph about Kern's ad/parody of the painting, since (at least for me) it is an interesting new fact relevant to the article's topic. AxelBoldt 08:29, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I was the one who removed the reference. I think it's irrelevant simply because parodies of the Last Supper are so commmon. If Kern's work is worth mention, then so would parodies of the work by American TV shows That 70's Show and Animaniacs should be mentioned as well. Those just happen to be the first two shows that I can think of that had a brief scene in which the characters sat around a table in the same manner as the apostles portrayed in The Last Supper; I'm sure there are many more. Kent Wang 17:37, 28 May 2004 (UTC)

I have removed the paragraph again, pending further discussion here. Kent Wang 17:14, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Jackson pastiche

Reference citation for pastiche, while mentioning its existence, does not specify that this pastiche hangs above Jackson's bed as someone here has asserted in the wikipedia article.

There are lots of reference to this [1] Paul B 10:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I wasn't contesting the number (many or few) references that might exist, but merely pointing out that the one cited (originally only footnote 4 was cited) did not support all the claims made by that part of the wikipedia article. Your reference (now as footnote 5 in the article) is actually much better, though, as it goes on to describe more than Christ's face having been replaced by Jackson; that the faces of the apostles had also been changed to those of various famous leaders, inventors and entertainers. The original wikipedia mention leaves one to assume a more strictly religious (or sacrilegious) context. This closer association to the sacrilegious may indeed be high on the agenda of editors who headline such articles with "bizarre" (which is not to say there might be plenty else that is genuinely "bizarre" besides this one item.) Your reference, however, describing the pastiche in greater detail (that is, not conveniently skewing the context by omission those details), makes it clear that Jackson has instead placed himself at the center of a gathering of charismatic, humanitarian leaders and great creative minds, which, however immodest this may seem, is something quite different.

Fair point. I've amended the text in accordance with your comments. Paul B 12:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Octagon

I heard the original room by Leonardo was painted in octagonal shape and the current box-shaped room is a modification from later times.

[edit] speculation removed

On the other hand, one might argue that of course, Leonardo would not have unambiguously replaced one of the apostles by a female. The feminine features of John's face may thus be seen as a mere hint.

And I suppose every other Christian artist who has portrayed John with youthful and somewhat feminine features (there are hundreds if not thousands) was making the same "mere hint"? Such an appearance is a long-lived convention for depictions of John; it predates Leonardo and has long survived him. —Charles P. (Mirv) 6 July 2005 06:18 (UTC) aaliyah is awesome

[edit] Jesus and Judas

When I was a child, I read an article in a Christian storybook that claimed that when Leonardo da Vinci painted The Last Supper he found his "Jesus" right away and painted him. Twenty years later, he found a soon-to-be executed prisoner to be his "Judas." After a few weeks finishing the painting, the model jumped up and revealed that he was the model of Jesus, and had become a criminal and "evil" in the last twenty years. It's clear that this is some kind of folklore, or maybe the book made it up to teach some kind of "morality" tale. Anyways, I don't have the source anymore, and was wondering if this is a common Christian legend or not.--204.248.61.77 19:40, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hidden Chalice

There is a "hidden" chalice-like symbol in the left pillar, that doesn't seem to belong there, what is its purpose?

It's not quite clear what this is. It only showed up after the restoration of the work (it was not in evidence before). One Gary Phillips seems to be the first to notice this, and I don't doubt that the silly theory of a missing Holy Grail that Dan Brown did so much to popularize is the cause. If you examine it closely it doesn't look nearly as much like a chalice; in my opinion it more closely resembles Maximilian Sforza's coat of arms, which is visible directly above it. It's also worth wondering what was painted on the other pillars (it's unlikely that they would have been decorated with such asymmetry), but whatever was there has not been restored. —Charles P. (Mirv) 04:54, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the last supper on TV

The depiction of the last supper in the American television program "That 70's Show" is worth noting. Simply because it has supporting evidence towards the idea that the person seated to right of Jesus could possibly be a women. In the show, when they are in the tableu of the last supper, to the right of the one who is supposed to be Jesus is Donna. A red headed girl just like the one depicted in Da Vinci's last supper. it is beleived that this idea is more well-known than once thought. Some television shows alwyas throw in a religious theme in every episode. However this show is not known for that, a remarkable tableau scene featuring the last supper is a very rare occurance and as a viewer of that show i found it to be suprising. Coincidence that Donna, the red-haired girl is depicting Mary Magadelene, the forgotten diciple of Jesus? Only Da Vinci knows for sure. Until we ever know for sure, It does not appear as if the world is ready for such radical re-thinking of the life of Jesus and his shackled relationship with Mary Magdelene.

I CALL BULLSHIT

Wait a minute. Everyone backup. Let's read this quote again because I can't believe that someone who is capable of learning to read and write actually said this...

"The depiction of the last supper in the American television program "That 70's Show" is worth noting. Simply because it has supporting evidence towards the idea that the person seated to right of Jesus could possibly be a women."

Think about the above quote, several times carefully if you must.--Daniel 04:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

It is, of course, part of the modern culture that absolutely everything has to be questioned, doubted, double-checked and verified. That's sad, really. The Gospels say that Jesus Christ shared the last supper with the twelve apostles. They are contemporary or near-contemporary accounts. You do not have to believe them, any more than you have to believe the Talmud or the Qu'ran, but practising Christians do believe them. The book "The Da Vinci code" is fiction, and speculation about Leonard's painting of The last supper is just that - speculation. Why is it that attacking the basic beliefs of Christianity appears to be acceptable, while similar attacks on, for example, Islam, would awaken a hornet's nest of criticism?

[edit] Speculation

When I saw this article earlier today and saw "The Controversy", the first thought that came into my head was, "Someone's been reading the Da Vinci Code." This book is FICTION, however it is based on one's beliefs, which may or may not be backed up by analysts of this painting. If there are any sources for your "dangerous secret .... campaign launched by the Catholic Church", then by all means, let it remain in the article. If not, however, it can be seen as Original Research and therefore not allowed in wikipedia. WikiTruth 19:57, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Its up to you

Well it is a Fiction book but ther are always people who pick up a book, watch the television etc. and believe anyting that they read/see/ hear. Now, the feminine side of it -for me which I havent read the Da Vinci code but I know what its about- is a female that Da Vinci as put in. Yes, you could argue that John has descriptions that relate to the feminine side, but if you really look at it it a female, a Male can not look like that (joke) unless he goes through a serious plastic surgery. The chalice and the Female ( In Dan Browns Da Vinci code he believes its Mary Magdalene) its a matter of if you wan't to see it or you don't want to see it, but its entirely up to the person (The reader) what you wan't to believe, but it does look like the so called "Holy Grail" and John resembling a Woman. The best thing to do is "LOOK IT UP FOR YOURSELF" but look at both sides to see what is against what or just ignore it.

I did what you told us here, I looked up for myself and I have compared Leonardo's Last Supper with many other versions of this subject - older and later ones. My impression is that practically all Italian painters showed us a beardless, long haired and very youthful John, who is always sitting next to Jesus. I think many people make the mistake to think that all disciples were adult men. They don't know that John was traditionally believed to be teenage boy, when he and the other disciples came together for the Last Supper. So the "feminine" look you see here is in fact meant o be a youthful one. The question is not: is it a man or a woman, but is it a male youth or not. I don't see a convincing hint to believe that Leonardo decipted Mary Magdalene here. Link: http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/st-john.html 89.49.134.59 12:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Please revert to version 56928895 since Slathering changed the word 'Jesus' to 'Sam' at line 13

[edit] John & the Relationship

And I suppose every other Christian artist who has portrayed John with youthful and somewhat feminine features (there are hundreds if not thousands) was making the same "mere hint"? Such an appearance is a long-lived convention for depictions of John; it predates Leonardo and has long survived him.

So what are you saying, that it's long been recognized that John is female? I quickly found 20 images of John and in over half of them, especially the ones where he appears feminine, "John" is falling in Jesus' lap, hugging him, or holding his hand. Clearly the artistic record from 1300-1600 supports the idea of a relationship between the two. Broodlinger 16:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

http://home.arcor.de/berzelmayr/st-john.html

The point is that the depiction of this intimate relationship is normal in art of the period, not evidence of some unusual "secret message" on Leonardo's part. Almost every artist - working for the Catholic church - includes this motif, so how can be an anti-Catholic "secret"? It can't be much of a secret can it, if it's known to everyone, including the church? Of course there was a relationship between John and Jesus. John was his disciple. He is referred to as the "beloved disciple" in his own gospel. Depictions of intmacy between men of this kind were considered quite uncontroversial in the Renaissance. The portrayal of John as the most feminine/passive of the disciples is usually contrasted with Peter as the most masculine/aggressive of them. You can see that in the Castagno too. Part of the point of these images is to show that the disciples represent the full range of human psychological types, brought together in harmony by Jesus. Paul B 18:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cypleus motif?

What on earth is a "cypleus motif"? Is this a typo for clypeus? (Still seems a rather odd motif). -- Securiger 00:15, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, typo. But that's what the book says, odd or not. Paul B 00:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter's Dagger?

The dagger in the painting cannot possibliy be Peter's. If you follow his arm, you will see it comes right down to the table. For Peter to be holding the dagger, His wrist would have to be broken, spun around in the opposite direction and lifted up approximately 6 to 8 inches. It has always been a mystery as to who was wielding the mysteious dagger. And, St. Andrew is not reacting to Jesus' revelation, but to the dagger, as his gaze is set directly upon it, not Jesus. RandallFlagg July 11, 2006

Look at thye close-up. The pink of the arm can be seen emerging from Peter's sleeve, and then his wrist is bent back. [2] 82.39.83.171 18:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Viisiting Milan a couple of weeks back my wife and I viewed the painting in the refectory. We had previously, of course, seen reproductions and comments in various TV programs. I have not read the dV Code my wife has but didn't make any comment on how that had incorporated the painting in its ill-written fantasy. One particular presentation of the painting was an IBM effort in a major exhibition of dV's works and inventions at London's Hayward gallery some years ago. That last concentrated on explaining how dV affected the perspective. I had not heard in any of these presentations about 'Peter's knife'. When looking at these things I like to use binoculars to get the detail. Doing so I was surprised to see the knife. It did not seem to me to be presented as a threat to anyone. More likely it appeared to be in a hand of which the forearm was resting on the table and the owner was perhaps considering slicing one of the rolls that the Christ has distributed along the table. What seemed to me, and my wife, absolutely clear was that Peter's right hand was firmly grasping the wrist from which the hand springs. We could not work out whose hand held the knife and very, very carefully counted the hands of the six disciples who are on the Christ's right hand. As well as the one holding the knife, there are twelve clearly depicted effecting quite natural gestures, although I couldn't guess why Peter is holding that wrist. I would mention that I enjoyed Veronese's version of the same event much more than this cloudy degraded image. I reckon that dV had painted out some other figure but, like he didn't get around to finishing a lot of things, he didn't finish this.

[edit] Knife

Doesn't it seem like the knife is being pointed at Judas (?), and that Judas seems to recognize it as a threatening action? 24.227.116.226 00:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

He can't see it. It's behind his back.Paul B 00:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charlie Rose

I remember watching Charlie Rose one night, and he interviewed someone who wrote a fictional book about the painting (NOT THE DA VINCI CODE). He mentioned he wrote Thaddeus was supposed to be a somewhat of a self protrait of Da Vinci, Simon the Zealot was based on Socrates, and Matthew was a portrait of some politician (or philosopher) that was alive during Da Vinci's day. Masa 05:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are referring to Javier Sierra's The Secret Supper. It provides another interesting view of the painting. --SFDan 18:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tradition of woman to the right of Jesus in Last Supper

Perhaps it would be worth mentioning the "unorthodox tradition" of depicting a woman in the Last Supper. Such images are quite common, and a very good example is in Arundel Castle, where it is beautifully sculpted in silver. Another is in a church in Banbury. The one I would like to upload and place on this page is the marble altarpiece in a Catholic cathedral in Drogheda, Eire.

Unfortunately, my browser will not upload images to Wiki, for some reason, so I have uploaded the image onto the web Drogheda Last Supper . Is that, or is that not a woman? Please bear in mind that this is the altarpiece for a Catholic cathedral.

I would suggest a text to go with this image of:

• It should be noted that Leonardo Da Vinci's Last Supper is not the only Last Supper scene to include a woman on the right-hand side of Jesus, and the sculpture on the altar of St Peter's Catholic Cathedral in Drogheda, Eire, is a good example of this unorthodox genre. Many of these images and sculptures are so obviously feminine, it would be inadvisable to attribute them to a 'youthful St John'.

-- Ralph Ellis 12:59, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ralph, you are talking as if you had never seen a long haired teenage boy in your whole life. Look here: [3] A woman? No, it's the actor Björn Andresen at the age of 15. Here's a summary of my arguments concerning the Last Supper (I know you won't read it anyway): [4] Fulcher 17:19, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"Is that, or is that not a woman?" Erm, it's not a woman. Definitely not. You probably think it looks feminine because the hairstyle is a "page boy bob", which was a popular women's style at various times in the twentieth century, starting in the 1920s. However, as the name suggests, it was originally a style for youths. And more particularly, in either the 1st century AD (which is supposed to be depicted here), or in any phase of European history prior to the twentieth century, it was considered disgraceful for a woman to either wear her hair so short (well, with the exception of nuns who get crew cuts as a sign of humility), or to let it flow loose and uncovered at a gathering for men (this is due, of course, to Paul.) In short, although the hairstyle looks somewhat feminine to modern eyes, it looked definitely and unequivocally masculine to the people who made this sculpture. To the extent that other gender features are visible (which is very little), they are male (cleft chin, slight Adam's apple as one might expect for a youth, and no breasts.) (BTW, I hope you don't mind, I edited your signature above to conform to the Wikipedia standard. You can have that added automatically by putting four tildes, ~~~~, at the end of your post.) -- Securiger 11:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ralph seems to have some unusual theories as evidenced by his website. Paul B 13:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monty Python

Should the Monty Python skit (the one where 'Leonardo' drew 23 disciples, 3 christs, and a kangaroo) be mentioned in the popular culture section? I'd add it, but I can't remember anything else about the skit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.111.167.39 (talk) 03:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

It was Michelangelo (in the sketch), though actually based on a real incident involving Paolo Veronese. Paul B 08:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)