Talk:The Troubles

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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) I have written a memoir which I think adds to the understanding of the relationship between the NICRA and the IRA as it then was (1960s, attempting to go political under Goulding). This was published in April 2006 by a Tyndall-Lilliput combination, is publicly available, and is called 'Century of Endeavour'. It goes in some depth to the foundation of the Wolfe Tone Societies and the steps which led to the development of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s, under influences which included the Connolly Association in London. An overview can be seen via my web-site which is at http://www.iol.ie/~rjtechne/ and an electonic version of the book, with notes and references hotlinked into source material, is accessible by arrangement with me in the short run, and in the long run will be publicly available one way or another. I could write a revised entry on the origin of the Troubles in NI, but would not want to be seen as simply promoting my book. I would prefer if someone else who knew the period were to write an update, drawing on my book as a referenceable source, and I would co-operate with this process by making available the e-version of the book. There was an element in the IRA in the 60s which genuinely wanted to go the political road and to prove it would work without violence, and in my time I tried to act as a source of policies for this process. Perhaps someone like Daltun O Ceallaigh, who is referenced, might be persuaded to take this up? Should I sugggest it to him? Roy Johnston 11:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)Roy Johnston April 3, 2007 WikiProject Northern Ireland tasks: Template:Northern Ireland tasks

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Contents 1 Removed from text 2 unattributed quote 3 Terrorism 4 POV 5 Irish Problem 6 Shocking omission 7 Further reading 8 Some FOI records 9 210.211.80.5 point of view 10 Sinn Feins Marxist perspective 11 bloody friday 12 To the anonymous user at the University of York 13 Article needs work 14 Images Added 15 Added detail on collusion 16 John Hume 17 a "legal" war 18 Background 19 What is this conflict: native against settler or Catholic against Protestant? 20 Terminology: "Northern Ireland conflict" 21 Citation 22 The ceasefires 23 Recent edit by 216.194.4.244 24 Betrayals and the Future 25 Headline text 26 Background

[edit] Removed from text

This needs work. The nature of such violence and the relations of the various groups and their motives and tactics needs to be charted in detail. Though violence in whatever form it takes is terrible, there is a difference between defensive military activity and knowingly targeting innocent civilians e.g. the "Real" IRA's killings at Omagh, or Bloody Sunday. -- 20 October 2002 user:DanKeshet

[edit] unattributed quote

in Nationalist or Republican political parties, 2/3 through the article, the phrase "insight into the thinking of" is in quotes, but the passive voice of described avoids attributing the quote, which is fairly significant. Although i know very little of Irish politics, i did a little googling and i found a transcript in which the phrase is used by Fraser Agnew. Could this be the source of this quote? If noone objects, i'll attribute it to him in the article. Foobaz·✐ 07:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terrorism

I note that this article does not use the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" once throughout the entire article. Surely this is necessary for an article on the NI troubles! -- 25 April 2005 143.117.143.42

I agree, it is odd that mention of terrorism should be omitted. I have added a balancing note on views of PIRA by other countries, taken from the PIRA article. --Air 15:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In regards to referring to the IRA as a 'terrorist' organization, i think the complexity of the situation and the specific connotation applied to the term as we know it today needs to be taken into account. Certainly the IRA has engaged in dubious and illegal, not to mention immoral behavior. However, with terrorism being associated with the actions of islamo-fascists, it is imperative to recognize the Troubles and its further implications as a different animal. Terrorist aspects of the Irish struggle should not undermine the fundamental difference in the political and social history of the country. Certainly there is more legitimacy in Irish resistance than in Islamic terrorism aimed at destroying Israel and the Western world as we know it -- 16 December 2005 69.161.36.180

In many places in Ireland, especially parts of the Six Counties, the Provos, or PIRA are not considered to be terrorists: they are freedom fighters, fighting for the freedom of a country that was oppressed by the English for several hundred years, a land which Britain still refuses to grant its freedom. Ireland should be free, the whole of it, not just a part. -- 2 March 2006 68.58.116.87

One must consider that Northan Ireland has a Unionist majority"In the 2001 census, 45.5% of the Northern Irish population were Protestant, (Presbyterian, Church of Ireland, Methodist and other Protestant denominations), and 40.3% of the population were Roman Catholic. 13.9% of the population did not specify a religion. While a plurality of the present-day population (38%) define themelves as Unionist, 24% as Nationalist and 35% define themselves as neither, 59% express long term preference of the maintenance of Northern Ireland's membership of the United Kingdom, while 22% express a preference for membership of a united Ireland", that is why partition was carried out originally. If the Northan Irish had wished to join the the Republic of Ireland they had the oppertunity in the 1920's via the will of an elected body (seeIrish Free State), shurly for a minority group to try and overturn the view of the majorty by means of violent acts must make them terrorists.(81.159.56.4 16:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)).

[edit] POV

Lapsed Pacifist has been here again. Conributed much POV, which needs to be drastically cleaned up. Some examples:

"and the anger felt by the Irish because of the occupation and genocide by the British. (It was only in the last 2 years that Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister, made a formal apology on behalf of the United Kingdom for the treatment of the Irish people during the preceeding 400 years.)"

"Except for unionists, all other segments argued that the Northern Ireland of the 1960s needed change"

"while the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the British army and loyalists stepped up their violence to oppose it."

"when the anti-Catholic Orange Order insist on parading through Catholic neighbourhoods"

"the slowness of others has led to Sinn Féin witholding its support fom the Police Service of Northern Ireland for the time being"

-- Jonto 22:23, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree totally. I had not seen those edits bt they are so POV it beggars belief. We are going to have to keep an eye on LP's edits more thoroughly and cull that sort of tone. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 22:51, 17 July 2005 (UTC)}

I'm surprised, Jtd, that you did'nt see fit to check whether or not I actually made those edits. Three to five look factual, I don't see the problem with them. The first definitely does'nt look like anything I've ever written, and I'm also doubtful about the second. But, by all means, keep an eye on my edits. Just make sure they're mine. -- Lapsed Pacifist 23:34, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Some of the quotes are factual but just need reframing in a more NPOV way. I should of course have checked to make sure you made them and I apologise if you didn't. The first, I agree, is unlike anything I have seen you write. That is why there was a tone of surprise (and disappointment) in what I wrote. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 23:42, 17 July 2005 (UTC)}

[edit] Irish Problem

It is claimed that "many British commentators" use the term "the Irish Problem". Perhaps this comment should be deleted until someone provides evidence of this use in recent history. If "many" turns out to be relatively few, then the claim should be clarified in this respect, and then it would become a rather meaningless statement not worthy to be in the article anyway. -- 4 August 2005 219.78.68.166

I deleted this claim. I've not heard it used in 10 or 20 years, and the whole remark seemed to add little. -- Stevelinton 20:05, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shocking omission

Maybe I didn't read this close enough, but there seems to be a shocking omission of historical context: "What is clear is that its origins lie in the century-long debate over whether Ireland, or part of Ireland, should be part of the United Kingdom"

A single century?!?! Methinks it's a bit older than that! The priming of the pump is a couple of centuries older than that. Some reference must be made to the Irish Plantations. Without the scottish settlements there would of been no controversy post WWI.

Otherwise much credit to the authours for a balanced and short article that links to more meaty articles. -- 9 August 2005 69.23.220.138

Well, the United Kingdom only came into existence in 1801, so at the outbreak of the troubles the debate can't have been much more than two centuries old :) --Ryano 13:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

While the UK only came into being in 1800, the invasion of ireland by the British dates back to 1100 ad and the dispute betweeen the Protestants and Catholics in the British Isles is centuries old. -- 2 December 2005 67.80.66.169

during the 1100's, the Pope gave England official claim to rule ireland, but only King James (1600's) actually did anything about it. Officially, say 800 yrs. In practice, try 400. -- 5 December 2005 62.53.32.134

A couple of facts for our anonymous contributors: The UK came into being in 1707. There was no "British invasion". The "British" were the people of the British Isles. The Normans were invited to Ireland by the Irish. The Scottish 'planters' are likely to have been Irish in origin. Protestants didn't come into being until after 1517 - 490 years ago. Ireland is a proper noun and as such deserves a capital letter. --Mal 22:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The Irish did NOT invite the normans, that was the king of Leinster. Thats like saying the English invited the nazis into England because the Duke of York asked adolf.

[edit] Further reading

Surely there are some more neutral and wide-ranging academic/historical studies that could be listed? "Steaknife" is interesting, but is journalism, not history and covers only a tiny fraction of the topic. Stevelinton 20:08, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

More non-biased background is needed in this article, because it completely fails to focus on the origins and imporant events that led to the headline grabbing incidents of violence. The relocation of Protestants into Ulster in 1607 by the English govt. set the stage for the struggles in later centuries. Also, the expulsion of the Irish elite led the way for the Protestant power grabbing that took place. The failure of O'Neill's attempts at reconciliation with Lemass in 1965 led to the NICRA and the student demonstrations, which in turn led to the Battle at the Bogside in 1969, when Chichester-Clarke called London for troops. I was nearly appalled when the term "genocide" was used in reference to the Unionist actions of the past century. To my knowledge, while the Unionists' deserve blame, it was the PIRA and RIRA that killed more people than all of the Protestant groups combined. Keep it factual. -- 5 December 2005 152.17.56.91

[edit] Some FOI records

I've been going through the MoD Freedom of Information releases, and have found some documents that might be useful to fleshing this article, or related ones, out. I'll just link them here in case they're of help - do we have an Army in Northern Ireland page? Shimgray | talk | 15:25, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

• Deployment of Troops in NI since 1969
  • Annex A, Annex B
• Information about the Services in Northern Ireland
  • Annex A, Annex B, Annex C, Annex D

[edit] 210.211.80.5 point of view

More needs to be said about modern times, at least from 2000 onwards. The continuation of this "war", carried out in a 1st world country, which has very high standards of education, health, freedom, not to mention a booming economy, and of course the tight checks and measures on British rule and interference, should be taken into account. Armed struggle may be justifiable in 3rd world countries where there is REAL oppression, but in this case, the agitators (the IRA) should be held accountable for the hell they have put the Irish people through for their own selfish political and financial gain. -- 2 December 2005 210.211.80.5

[edit] Sinn Feins Marxist perspective

I would dispute the accuracy of that claim. Provisional Sinn Fein and the Provisional IRA involved themselves in the Northern Ireland conflict on explicit republican grounds. Provisional Sinn Fein Splits from Sinn Fein was a rejection of Marxist politics on the grounds that it was alienating traditional supporters of the republican movement, the latter part and marxist group of the party became known as Offical Sinn Fein -- 27 December 2005 83.70.28.240

[edit] bloody friday

seemed POV (terms like 'carnage'). had read:"A day of carnage in Northern Ireland when men women and children died as a result of provisional IRA bombs."Mike McGregor (Can) 19:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Not really, carnage is the only word to describe what happened. If you said something like "A day of carnage in Northern Ireland when men women and children died as a result of the actions of the murdering provisional IRA and their bombs. then maybe. -- User: Jasca Ducato as 194.80.20.10, 3 April 2006

[edit] To the anonymous user at the University of York

I changed it to Ulster, as sectarian tension is not confined to the six counties. I used the religious rather than the political division, as the trouble is older than the current political divisions. -- Lapsed Pacifist 10:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs work

This article is dreadful considering its importance in many histories (Irish, British, colonial etc). Why all the gaps in information and the history? -- max rspct leave a message 15:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and if its not done, people will just come on and write crap until its changed. Can I propose a reorganisation along these lines:

• very brief ie less than one para, on historical background incl plantations, home rule and foundation of Northern Ireland

• A narrative overview.

-The Civil Rights campaign and its breakdown into violence. -The subsequent communal violence in derry/londonderry and belfast. -The deployment of the British army, the start of the PIRA campaign in earnest (1971). The loyalists response. -Internment and Bloody Sunday - the dissafecti9on of the nationalist community -The fall of Stormont and introduction of Direct Rule -Sunningdale Agreement and the Ulster Workers Council Strike -The Prison issue and Hunger Strikes -The IRA's "long war" late 1970s to early 1990s (main article at PIRA page). -Anglo Irish Agreement 1985 -Loyalist upsurge in killings c. 1986-1994 -Ceasefires 1994 -Agreement 1998

• Analytical perspectives

-Casualty breakdown (leave as now) -motivations (as now) -current status, political and security

Any comments? -- Jdorney 17:02, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Sounds okay. Read the article and whilst I found some parts really good, not least the fact it provided what felt like a thorough but brief NPOV summary, it certainly could do with more material in places. Or at the least not the feel to be a list of other pages. Surely there was some sort of historical narrative into which the key events can be placed. I don't know enough to write it as I came to the page to learn it. Panlane --82.38.227.22 20:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I've written most of what I talked about above. Editors are welcome to comment/change as they see fit. -- Jdorney 17:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images Added

• Images added, Cleanup tag removed. Message me with comments/complaints. Skaterblo 22:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added detail on collusion

Added detail about Ulster Resistance, Force Research Unit and "Death on the Rock"- these werent appearing yet omitting them leaves the section with a POV/one side of the story kind of feel. Hope it helps. Fluffy999 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Hume

Any objection to replacing one of the 2 Gerry Adams pictures with a picture of someone else? John Hume for example, or even David Trimble. Its not a POV thing, just that Hume perhaps played a big role in the ceasefires etc. Theres also no image of Ian Paisley, who is also a major contributor to events throughout the period. Fluffy999 00:53, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

No Problems here. Or you just might add them w/o replacing. Either way yeah i think a pic of hume or triblme is warrented, though i would like to see something other then their headshot. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 06:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

ok will have a look for some action pics Fluffy999 07:35, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I like this one but its copyrighted :/ Fluffy999 14:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

OK how about remove both the Adams pictures, and replace one with this image of Hume & Adams arguing on TV. Then use this image of Paisley and Trimble arguing on TV. The problem is, unless you create a "rogues gallery" montage of all their headshots you wont get them all appearing together. The pictures are kind of fuzzy but the copyright is released so no issued there. Fluffy999 14:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well i got the Hume/Adams picture to work, the Pasiley/Trimble picture came back as a 404. Would be nice if tey were better quailty though, just my opinion. As for all of them together wrnt their pictures or at least some filing done during the negotations that showed all of them in the same place at the same time, could have sworn i seen a program that showd as such. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 03:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes the images are definately low quality. Dont remember the program- afaik Paisley always refused to appear in images with Adams.

• This is the paisley/trimble link http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/95000/images/_98414_trimbeangry.jpg
• paisley adams again http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39543000/jpg/_39543292_adamspaisley-203.jpg
• paisley adams again (unsure copyright) http://gblx.cache.el-mundo.net/1999/07/16/fotos/0716portada.jpg

Hello, I added in some images of all the main politico's. This isnt a POV against Gerry Adams, but they all played a part so seems fair to have more than images of one person in there. Fluffy999 08:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] a "legal" war

First paragraph- "although the conflict does not qualify as a war in any legal sense." Seems POVish. Over at War its stated: "the term "war" is restricted by legal definition to those conflicts where one or both belligerents have formally declared war"

There has at least been a few declarations of "war". Two that spring to mind are the UVF in 1966, and the PIRA's fairly constant insistance it was at "war". The War article also makes the case that there are reasons why wars arent strictly declared- so a war between opposing sides can be waged but remained publicly undeclared for various reasons.

I say its POVish because the british government made the "Criminalisation" of the PIRA an objective of their part in the conflict. So the first paragraph frames the article from the outset with their POV.

The point that was trying to be made could be that the combatents werent strictly speaking standing armies with uniforms, advanced military hardware etc. I prefer the low intensity conflict definition. Fluffy999 10:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Background

Do we really need such a long and slightly confusing background section? The history of Ireland and of Ulster is covered in great detail elsewhere. Isn't it better to concentrate on the immediate roots of the troubles, ie since 1912 or so? Other wise people will keep adding details on things going back as far as the Nine Years War, the Plantation of Ulster, the 1641 rebellion, the Cromwellian conquest, the sige of Derry, the battle of the Boyne etc etc etc. Apart from anything else, it is important to keep the article to managable length. Jdorney 16:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Having clarified this passage, I'm more convinced than ever that it should be cut out entirely and the relevant links given for the main articles. A paragraph can't hope to cover four hundred years of Irish history, while still explaining it properly. Besides, the 1790s etc are not directly relevant to the content of this article. Any comments? Jdorney 16:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello I dont think its confusing, its just boring. You could maybe express the results of all those events in a small paragraph ie. simmering cauldron of hatred which sometime overflows. Where to begin talking about origins is complicated- some say with plantation, some say with original invasion, etc. Some people, like Ken Maginnis, say "kick the pope" bands in 12th july parades were happily being watchedby flag waving 'taigs' before latest in 1969. You would want to avoid glossing over events to that extent as it could give a false impression that everything was fine within NI until the late 1960s.

[edit] What is this conflict: native against settler or Catholic against Protestant?

I feel the latter definition distorts the entire conflict claiming it to be religious. The former is the original dynamic and as such is inherently political; the latter and all others are merely additions to that conflict. Can anybody here show how the conflict is religious as opposed to religion being used to justify the conquerers keeping the power? I have yet to meet a nationalist who kills somebody because of their religion. How, pray tell, are people killing each other about a God rather than about controlling power here? Please, those using the labels "Catholic" and "Protestant" here, justify why they are better labels than native/nationalist and settler/unionist, both of which are political labels. El Gringo 02:35, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Catholic and Protestant is also a political term set in its own time and context. From roughly 1603, when the English first established control over all of Ireland, until the 1820s, the main criterion for belonging to the dominant group in the state was not ethnic origin, but religious conformity. The Protestant Ascendancy meant just that, it was a ruling group of Church of Ireland members. There is no contradiction between highlighting the importance of religion and argueing that hte conflict was always about power. Religion itself was about power.

Now it is true that this was also originally mainly a division between settler and native, but it was never execlusively so. Moreover, by the 1790s it makes no sense to talk about "settlers and natives", all concerned were natives, going back 100 years at least. What's more they didn't describe themselves as British or Irish, as they do now, they used the terms Catholic, Protestant (meaning CoI) and dissenter (meaning Protestants who did not conform to the state church -including presbyterians).

Furthermore, it is not true to say that all Catholics are descended from Gaelic Irish people and that no Protestants are. A quick survey of names in NI and indeed the rest of Ireland, will reveal otherwise. It is true that religion in itself is not currently the major issue in the conflict, but the communal division is marked by religious criteria and not by ethnic ones (ie language, descent etc). For modern divisions, you can use the terms nationalist and unionist, but to suggest that the terms Catholic and Protestant are irrelevant is not accurate.

Jdorney 12:32, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

"Aye," the old Glasgow joke runs, "but are ye a Catholic Jew or a Protestant one?"

In many respects, religion in the sense of theology is irrelevant; it's a strong historical polarisation stemming from many things (religion, ethnicity and politics being high on the list) which is now an excuse for people to kick the shit out of each other. It just so happens that one of the most obvious differences between them - and one which is recognised by all parties - is the religious divide.

Asking about "conquerors keeping the power" or "native/settler" is essentially meaningless. It held water in Ireland, where there was still the issue of a largely absent landowner class, but not in modern Northern Ireland; the population fluctuations over the years in Ulster make it very hard to talk about a "settler" versus a "native". Shimgray | talk | 13:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology: "Northern Ireland conflict"

Looking for the article "Northern Ireland conflict", I found that there was no such thing, and consequently created it, as a redirect to this page. Now I wonder if this was right, i.e. if "Northern Ireland conflict" and "The Troubles" are synonymous terms, or whether "The Troubles" are just part of the Northern Ireland conflict; in the latter case, Northern Ireland conflict would have to be made into a page of its own right, I assume.--Robin.rueth 13:42, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, one and the same thing. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

"The roots of the Troubles lie in the failure of Northern Ireland to integrate the Catholic/nationalist population within its borders into its state."

Is this not just stating the obvious? What this sentence means is that, for whatever reason, a significant portion of nationalists in Northern Ireland never accepted the legitimacy of the state, leading in the end to political conflict. It is not a commentary on this fact, or a judgement, or apportioning blame, so I don't see why it would need a citation. Jdorney 20:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The ceasefires

Something I have noticed in the article is that it states that once the 1994 ceasefires where declared it was the effective end to the troubles. It does make mention to limited violence following this ceasefire however this completely ignores the end of the ceasefire in February 1996 with the Canary Wharf bombings and the other attacks which lead to the return to complete violence by the IRA and other paramilitaries. I feel the article should reflect the fact that peace was not truly declared in Northern Ireland until the 1998 ceasefire. Butch-cassidy 16:47, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Might someone comment before I begin altering this? Butch-cassidy 11:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Good idea Weggie 11:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I've made the changes, now its upto everyone to polish them. [1] Butch-cassidy 10:38, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edit by 216.194.4.244

There was an edit by IP 216.194.4.244, adding a new figure for the numbers of casualties in the intro; the edit looks a little clumsy to me (and certainly doesn't read very well), and needs looking at. I don't know enough on the subject to correct (don't even remember why I stumbled across the page!). Given that the casualty figures also appear later in the article in the tables, there needs to be some consistency.

In the meantime, I'm about to remove a bit of text from the article around said tables, since the sentences "Most of those killed were civilians or members of the security forces, with smaller groups of victims identified with republican and loyalist paramilitary groups. It is often disputed whether some civilians were members of paramilitary organisations due to their secretive nature." appear in both the Responsibility and the Status sections. I'm leaving the one in the Status section, since that seems more appropriate. Carre 21:22, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Betrayals and the Future

While much has been made of the situation in later years of the 20th century,it should be remembered this conflict is comprised of betrayals by both sides. Religion has been and will always be the dividing factor in Ireland, North and South. The Unitied Irishmen were betrayed by the Catholics at the behest of the church, the church was bribed with the right to train priests in Ireland. A hundred years earlier a protestant was hired by the Pope to kill the King and take control because Irish priests were threatening his control.

This is where the fallacy lies in Irish history both protestants and Catholics did not want British rule in the 18th,19th and early 20th century.This changed with the referendum after WW1. The northern Irish Protestant developed a siege mentality after the free state passed a series of extremely Draconian Laws which curtailed the Protestant's right to work and live in the free state.

The TROUBLES started over not a percieved injustice to Catholics but an injustice which effected both working class groups equally. The problem is that valid points were subsumed by a religious intolerance,(propagated by both religions)and therefore neither protestant or catholic can hold his head up and look innocent.

While many are looking forward, all I have seen in Northern Ireland is a hardening of the tribalism in the last few years. Before anyone asks I have lived here for over 40 years, I was a child when Bloody Sunday happened and I lament this situation.

The only way forward is the intergration of our schools but this is being fought tooth and claw by the Catholic church and this with the political climate here going to both extremes does not bode well for the future. This has not ended, maybe I am wrong (hopefully) but in all likelihood this is a lull in the problem.

I'm sure your heart's in the right place, but I don't think you know your history very well. The United Irishmen's support base was predominantly Catholic. No Protestant was ever hired by a Pope to kill a king (I don't even know what you're referring to here). Protestants resisted Irish self government since the 1830s repeal movement, got organised in a mass movement in the 1880s to resist Home Rule and threatened civil war to oppose it in 1912-14. There was no referendum after WWI, perhaps you mean the 1918 election? The Free State passed no laws curtailing the right of protestants to live and work there, draconian or otherwise.

Jdorney 12:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headline text

[edit] Background

Does anyone else feel that we need to ditch, or at least radically cut, the background section? its far too long and confusing for the general reader right now. Perhaps it should be moved to a different article? Jdorney 20:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Well maybe some of it could be reduced, but from what I read it seems like a reasonable amount of historical detail for a conflict that does essentially have a starting point some 400 years ago. So I wouldn't really be in favour of getting rid of it, no. --Hibernian 20:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

The second two sections should be drastically reduced, since they reduplicate History of Northern Ireland (and are approximately equal in length to the two equivalent sections in that article.) Cut these two down to at least half their current size and insert for more information see... Cripipper 21:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)