Talk:The Twelfth
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[edit] Sectarian
Following the edit which changed "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." to "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose what they see as sectarian marches) and some of the unionist..." I am beginning to wonder about the way the word "sectarian" is used. Surely an organisation which excludes members of a given sect (and I don't mean unitarians) and has the object of thwarting the plans and objectives of that sect must itself be sectarian in nature. There can be no doubt that the marches on the Twelfth are sectarian in intention, nature and result. Nor does the Orange Order itself very vehemently deny that it is sectarian. I believe that "what they see as sectarian" is a weasel phrase; the marches are sectarian. It is up to us to decide whether sectarianism is a bad thing or not. A better phrase would be "some members of the nationalist community (who oppose the marches on the grounds thatthey are sectarian) and some of the unionist...". --Muinchille 16:30, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Agreed, the weasel words should go. The Orange Order is very openly sectarian. The whole point of some of the parades in NI is to drive home sectarianism. That can be stated in NPOV fashion. DMorpheus 17:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Canada
I would just like to point out, there are no significant orange parades in Canada in this day and age, even in newfoundland. I'm not trying to stir up an argument I just don't like canada being lumped in with sectarianism in any form. I know the Orange Order had a fundemantal influence on Ontario as well as any number of other provinces but it's still not right to put Canadian links to a certain sect that has little or nothing to do with the nation in it's modern form. I will freely admit I'm a canadian of norn irish catholic descent, but I would honestly argue for any un-biasedness (i know im making up words) in any shape form or fashion. I feel a bit stupid as I've met loads of people from the north of ireland in my days from both sides of the slim divide and in these days these silly arguments mean fuck all in people's day to day lives, the only point I'm trying to make is don't tie canada into this fading argument from centuries past, I can't think of a more forward thinking country than this land and I don't personally appreciate the mud slinging with our name's involved, let sleeping dogs lie. easy
- The article does not suggest anything about the prominence of the Order in Canadian society or the 'significance' of the parades, so I don't see that this user has any kind of point. At any rate, it certainly is accurate that there are parades held in Canada. I attended last year's Twelfth parade just outside Ottawa, which consisted of at least one hundred. I couldn't tell you the exact size of any others, but they are not infrequent - about a dozen are scheduled for this July in Ontario, including one in downtown Toronto for the 15th.
--Yipperson 04:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Development?
The Twelfth has and has had quite a profound impact on Northern Ireland life, as this has been the day when things explode, both literally and metaphorically. I think this article needs a bit of development to reflect the impact it has on Northern Ireland. Mouse Nightshirt 22:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removed Text from the Orange Order article
I've removed the following text from the Orange Order article. An editor may wish to integrate this into the article.
- ''The Twelfth'' however remains a deeply divisive issue, not least because of allegations of triumphalism and anti-Catholicism against the Orange Order in the conduct of its Walks and criticism of its behaviour towards Roman Catholics. Most Orange Order Walks in Ireland are uncontroversial; Walks in the Republic of Ireland, notably in [[Rossnowlagh]], [[County Donegal]], require minimal policing and attract non-Orange Order members, including Roman Catholics, to watch. However at a few flashpoints, Walks have become highly controversial. Many of the bands hired by the Order for the parades openly advertise their association with [[loyalist]] [[paramilitary]] groups (responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Catholics) with flags and banners.
- [[Image:lambegdrumming.jpg|thumb|left|450px|Lambeg Drum competition at County Tyrone 12th]]
- The very first Orange parades were held in [[1796]], in different venues in [[County Armagh]]. The [[Northern Star]] newspaper reported that an Orangeman by the name of M'Murdie, died of stab wounds following clashes with the local yeomanry, in [[Aghalee]]. The next year, [[1797]], fourteen people were killed in disturbances during an Orange parade in [[Stewartstown]], [[Tyrone]].
- To Orange Order members, the "right" to Walk anywhere on the "Queen's highway" is of fundamental importance in upholding the principles of the "Glorious Revolution". To critics, their demand to walk their ''traditional routes'', even some of those which have become Catholic areas, is seen as provocative, triumphalist and as asserting the supremacy of Protestants in [[Ulster]].
JASpencer 22:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Can't see why you took this stuff out - it might be fairer to innocents who know little of our affairs to see all sides of the argument fully presented. In a way the two points of view are the information. Trying to edit away one side or another does no service to either side. Personally I've always believed that Unioinism should be given the chance to expound its views as much as possible.--Muinchille 11:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- There's no problem with including the text about intimidation and violence associated with the Twelfth, but it must be properly cited and avoid weasel words. If you can find quotations and news sources to back up the claims about "respectable" Protestants fleeing NI for the Twelfth, please add these to the article. Thanks. Demiurge 12:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
They don't flee, they avoid. I've met loads of them down here and on holiday in Spain. Go to Alicante and listen to the accents - no citation required - direct personal experience. How about "middle class" instead of respectable then? Like me, you probably think your point of view is perfectly reasonable and balanced, and avoids "weasel words" like "perceived sectarianism". --Muinchille 12:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- Please take a look at WP:CITE and WP:NOR. Personal experience and anecdotes are not an acceptable source, sorry. This may seem strange, but Wikipedia is not interested in "truth", it's interested in verifiability: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Demiurge 12:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Verifiable enough - just look around the North - nobody there. Try http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2006/jun19_tourism_sees_twelfth_in_new_light.php --Muinchille 12:58, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
and
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/07/14/shead_1.htm
There it is - most Northerners regard the whole thing as foolish and distasteful, and leave. Good luck to those trying to persuade people to come to the North for cultural reasons around the twelfth. They will surely need it!
- Thanks for finding those references, I've added them into the main article. Demiurge 13:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. This is better. The original article made the whole thing sound like an inoffensive and innocent ramble through the countryside. Please God, one day it will be.--Muinchille 13:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Now much better.--Muinchille 14:52, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] More removed text
From the Orange Order article. Please incorporate this as you see fit:
- The main parade of the year is the annual "Twelfth" of July celebrations which commemorate the Battle Of The Boyne and the victory of King William Of Orange after whom the Order is named. The lodges are usually accompanied by various marching bands playing flutes, fifes, accordions, bagpipes and brass instruments. This parade often involves thousands of marchers at each of the many locations and draws crowds of spectators.
JASpencer 22:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- What's wrong with it? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 11:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] United Irishmen
In context, it should should not be forgotten that many of the United Irishmen--the driving force behind the 1798 rebellion--were Ulster Protestants, including much of the leadership.--PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lambeg Drums
It is now time that we recognized the Ulster Protestant tradition as part of Ireland's cultural heritage. (After all, the 1916 Rising was commemorated in Dublin this year (2006). In this context, can anyone please tell me the origins of the Lambeg drums? Thank you!--PeadarMaguidhir 09:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Check out the article on Lambeg Drums. There is very little that doesn't have a wikipedia article! Afn 11:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello Peadar. Whilst carrying out my masters research in the university of groningen I happened across some interesting documents that point to the origin of the lambeg drums and their malacca playing sticks. Im new to adding information to this site, and therefore cannot see any manner to get in contact with you. sincerely, nmac@hotmail.com
[edit] Sectarianism
"Sectarianism refers (usually pejoratively) to a rigid adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination. It often implies discrimination, denunciation, or violence against those outside the sect. The term is most often used to refer to religious sectarianism, involving conflict between members of different religions or denominations of the same religion. It is also frequently used to refer to political sectarianism, generally on the part of a tight-knit political faction or party."
The above is quoted directly from wikipedia's own article on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian
To say that the Orange Order are anything other than sectarian or that to say so is merely a point of view is akin to saying the same about the sky being blue or the Nazi Hollocaust of the Jews. The order does not allow membership to Catholics. The marches are inciteful as is plainly evidenced by the songs the marchers sing:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040623084914/ireland.yi.org/Croppies_lie_down.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boyne_Water
http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiOLDFLUTE;ttOLDFLUTE.html
That's just a sample.
Where the real bone of contention lies is in the fact that for many years these marches, with their deeply offensive songs, were traditionally routed through Catholic ghettoes and boroughs where they caused deep resentment. This is not to say that if they didn't march through Catholic area, they would not be incitefull, as they quite plainly incite religious hatred. Since the establishment of the Peace Process many mechanisms have come into place giving the Catholic community a stronger voice and so the Orange Order has been forced to reroute many of the more controversial parades. The history of Irish Unionism in Northern Ireland can only be described as shamefull and ugly, to claim otherwise can only be nieve or else is just a smoke screen to further the sectarian nature of Unionist politics. The Orange Marches and celebrations of the Twelfth are a hangover from this tradition of segragation which are perpetuated by those who would like to see a return to the good old days of Gerrymandering and Human rights abuse.
In April 1963, when the South African minister of justice, Belthazar Johannes Vorster was introducing The Coercion Bill he publicly stated that he “would be willing to exchange all the legislation of this sort for one clause of the "Northern Ireland Special Powers Act". Vorster, in 1966, became prime minister of South Africa and then president.In fact the architects of apartheid in South Africa often quoted the Special Powers Act to justify their own repressive regime. (see South Africa and the Rule of Law, South African department of foreign affairs, April, 1968). This should give some idea as to the slant of power in Northern Ireland up until the last decade.
Happily things are changing with the Peace Process and that Unionists are slowly but surely losing their overall majority and the power to perpetuate Civil Rights abuses unchallenged. Maybe one day there will be peace in the North not until it's history is recognised for what it is.
Mo Conyeelock 18:25, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
- What has this soapbox crap got to do with this article please?
- (BTW - many unionists took part in the Civil Rights marches before NICRA was hijacked by a certain organisation - Civil Rights for ALL). --Mal 06:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge?
I disagree with the proposal to merge the article Orange Walk into this one. Although the festivities of the Twelfth do include many Orange Walks throughout the world, Orange Walks take place at other times of the year. I'm not even sure that the Orange Walk originated specifically for the Twelfth - wasn't it the Battle of Aughrim originally? --Mal 09:01, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
