Talk:Theodor Herzl
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[edit] Old vandalism
Wikipedia editors, please help. This entry encloses nothing but a thinly veiled attempt to incite hatred against Jews. Can we ban the vandal?
Maybe it's been fixed, but I certainly don't see any incitement here. --Joshuapaquin 18:15, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)
For what it's worth, at 11:50 pm on April 30, 2006, I came across this page & found the text "Theodor Herzl was a very dumb person!" I subsequently deleted it, even though I'm not a wikipedian. There is clearly someone inciting hatred.
[edit] English translation
"From April, 1896, when the English translation of his Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") appeared,"
- is it correct to say that the English translation was so important? I was under the impression that Zionism pre-WWI was mostly a German and Eastern European project. Dinopup 17:16, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "If you Will it, it is no dream"
Theodore Herzl 'State of Israel'...courtesy of Walter Sobshak from the "The Big Lebowski".
[edit] Sultan of Turkey?
——
[edit] Dreyfus Affair
It is significant (and good) to see an accurate if slightly controversial (to some) reference to the Dreyfus Affair in this article. I studied the history of Zionism at university, and have long held the belief that this affair had a very minor impact on Herzl, and that he may have later exploited the matter for his own political ends. He did indeed think initially that Dreyfus was guilty and showed almost no concern for the case, yet later wrote that Dreyfus was innocent not because the charges were part of an anti-semetic conspiracy (even though that was indeed the major factor), but because, as a Jew holding an office of responsibility and public service, he could not possibility have commited any crime in the first place: he wrote "A Jew who, as an officer on the general staff, has before him an honorable career, cannot commit such a crime . . . The Jews, who have so long been condemned to a state of civic dishonor, have, as a result, developed an almost pathological hunger for honor, and a Jewish officer is in this respect specifically Jewish." Source: biography of Herzl (based on that by Alex Bein) included in translation of Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State") (Dover; ISBN 0-486-25849-1) 86.17.246.110 12:33, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- The way this issue is taught, and popularly referred to, in Israel is that Herzl was not concerned at all by whether Dreyfus was guilty or not. What did shock him was the fact that the crowds were shouting "death to the Jews", as if all Jews were guilty, even though only one person was on trial. It was witnessing this event that caused him to understand that the Jews have no future in Europe (since Antisemitism is not rational and therefore cannot be rationally combatted), and therefore they must live in a land of their own.
- -Sangil 01:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
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- May I add parenthetically you seem to have missed the point about Herzl thinking that Dreyfus had to be innocent because he was Jewish. Isn't that just as bad as thinking that he had to be guilty because he was Jewish? Hardly a rational opinion - his views (reported and cited above) were equally bigoted as the baying crowd's. I'd say that is something which should be included in any teachings of the case: you wouldn't qoute an anti-Semite in an essay criticising Judaism, would you. 86.7.208.240 23:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
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- As no-one had bothered to reply, and there are no sources to back the "Dreyfus Affair did not affect Hertzl" claim, I have commented it out. Please bring relevant sources before re-inserting it into the article.
- -Sangil 17:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Category:Wagnerites
Would someone like to explain in what way Herzl was a "Wagnerite"? Tomertalk 01:31, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Herzl and Rhodes
Does anyone mention the relationship between Herzl and Cecil Rhodes?
[edit] Herzl's untimely death
It occurs to me that this article is leaving out a huge detail, namely, why did Herzl die at the age of 44? Was it by an accident, or was he murdered?
[edit] Prior to 1896 & link to ProtoZionists
The Herzl timeline here is excellent and contains a good deal of detail on Herzls activity (prior to April 1896 the point at which this article currently dates his political work). Unfortunately there is nothing in the current article (or much in the Herzl timeline) about Herzls petitioning of the Rothschilds. eg.
"Originally he [Herzl] had hoped to influence the Rothschild family to support the building of a Jewish State, but when this plan failed he turned to the general public. Der Judenstaat, an elaboration of his Address to the Rothschilds [this is what originally appears in Hrzl's diary as ""Rede an die Rothschilds"], sets forth his proposal for a Jewish State." source
Previous petitions to influential families such as the Rothschild by Proto Zionist like Zvi Hirsch Kalischer were made in a similar vein. Is it possible someone can include some detail on this early work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.29.226.213 (talk) 22:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] comment
BS"D
herzl(Yemach Shmoi v'zochroi) was taka a meshugeh. Even many political Zionists agree. Don't say that I have an unfair bias and haven't read his writing. I have. So, herzl is one of those people who won't come back. --Shaul avrom 00:35, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
