Talk:Thirty Years' War

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Contents 1 Old talk 2 wrong facts !!!!!!! 3 Mising Umlauts 4 What were the battles like? 5 Casualties and disease 6 Finnish Nationalism? 7 Germans? 8 Mazarin 9 Edict of Restitution/Stralsund 10 Calvinist Bohemia 11 The "Danish" War 12 The Peace of Prague 13 Battle Information 14 Stadlohn &c. 15 Frederick V and Armistice 16 Requested move 16.1 Voting 16.2 Discussion 17 Inaccuracy abounds in this article! 18 Map 19 Clan Munro battle info 20 Request for inlince citations 21 Good Article status 22 Habsburgs thinking of England? 23 The last paragraph- separation of church and state 24 Beginning of article 25 Calvinists or Protestants 26 Clarity 27 Introduction 28 Cause for Swedish intervention 29 Transilvania 30 Strenght of the Armies involved 31 England, Scotland

[edit] Old talk

This is bound to be controversial. The causes alone are enough to provoke a riot in a roomfull of historians... sjc

You guys cribbed this article from the first couple paragraphs of my homepage (http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm). That page is copyright, and noted as such in the META data on the page. You should either (a) delete this or (b) attribute it and give a link to the source (e.g., "Adapted from <A href="http://www.pipeline.com/~cwa/TYWHome.htm">The Thirty Years War</A>"). I appreciate what Wikipedia is trying to do, but you should remember that I've also put in a lot of time making free information available to web users. Stealing my material is just wrong. CHRIS

Removing section in question until the issue is resolved --Anders Törlind

This was my mock-up originally (I suspect) although I can't check the revisions to see for sure. I have a feeling I pasted the wrong block of text into the article late at night; I know I keep tabs on Chris's site which is a very good and in-depth assessment of the 30 Years War; his stuff on the Defenestration of Prague is also very interesting. I have mailed Chris very contritely and put up instead the piece I originally intended. My apologies to all concerned. sjc

Mr. Callaway's generous apology gratefully accepted. As stated above, I view my site and Wikipedia as being on the same team, which is why I was so annoyed. To show no hard feelings, will add a couple TYW facts. CHRIS

---

In 1644, the Torstenson War, a conflict between Denmark and Sweden began as a consequence of the Danish king Christian IV of Denmark's activities, lasting for about 2 years.

What is this paragraph doing in the Bohemian Revolt (1618-25) section? -- Pde 04:39, 16 Sep 2003 (UTC)

---

Paragraphs below moved here from Talk:Thirty Years' War overview after merge:

Someone seems to have lost control here. Ortolan88 05:28 Nov 6, 2002 (UTC)

Why in the world is there a separate article for "Thirty Years' War overview" from the main Thirty Years' War page? Oughtn't an encyclopedia article entitled "Thirty Years' War" give, you know, an overview of the Thirty Years War? What's going on here? john 08:18 25 May 2003 (UTC)

I agree. And they seem to have been started within a week of one another. They should be merged; there are better ways of preventing the article from getting too long. Deb 19:12 25 May 2003 (UTC)

I AM THE ONE WHO WROTE THIS MATERIAL. THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT I HAVE RETURNED TO THIS SITE IN OVER A YEAR. THE MATERIAL IS MY OWN, BUT BASED ON LECTURES. IF IT IS THE STYLE THAT IS UNWANTED, THEN DELETE THEM, BUT IF IT IS ONLY FEAR OVER INFRINGEMENTE, THEN DO NOT WORRY, KEEP THEM. User:12.223.87.232

[edit] wrong facts !!!!!!!

hello there, I am researching the thirty years war for one of my degree modules - your page is useful BUT I have discovered one wrong fact ... "The Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia Matthias died without a biological heir in 1617" - Ferdinand was elected 1617 YES but Matthias did not die until 1619, the same year that Frederick V was elected King. Maybe this is just a typo but it confused me for a bit!

Books that prove this :

Early modern Germany 1477-1806 - Michael Hughes The thirty years war, the holy roman empire - ronald asch

In the 'Danish intervention' section i removed 'both England and France were in civil war,' and replaced it with 'England was weak and internally divided, and France was in civil war'. In the period in question Richlieu was fighting the Huguenots, and I guess this was civil war (just about), but England was not in civil war, it was fighting Spain and France. The English Civil War was much later.

[edit] Mising Umlauts

I just wanted to let you know that I added the Umlauts to the reference to the city of Donauwörth in your artical. You could also write this as Donauwoerth, but not Donauworth as it was. Thanks for a great artical!!

a case for Talk:Zürich ;o) dab 19:48, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wait, wouldn't just saying "Donauworth" be more easy on the eyes than "Donauewoerth"? I know, the whole "yer supposed to have the "e" after the vowel!" and all that BS...but, really the umlaut doesn't stand out visually as much...if you weren't going to use the umlaut, that is. But, as always, use of the umlaut is preferred. -Alex 12.220.157.93 20:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] What were the battles like?

Maybe this is a stupid question but can someone put in the article what warfare was like during this period and in this region? E.g. weaponry, general tactics, who comprised the armies (mercenaries, draftees, volunteers, ???), etc. (Feb.10, 2005)

Start here at Early modern warfare--Will2k 16:28, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties and disease

I shuffled things and split the Consequences section by adding a couple of paragraphs on epidemic and endemic disease associated with the war. Added references. Comments welcome. WBardwin 16:26, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

• Good idea

This distinction makes sense. I would also like to add that I believe that wars, particularly the Thirty Years War is supposed to have been important for the spreading of veneral disease, particularly syphilis, to all of Europe. Unfortunately I no longer have access to the sources where I read this. Does someone else know more on this subject? -Sensemaker

[edit] Finnish Nationalism?

Someone seem to be putting in some quite erroneous and/or biased opinions on pages concerning this war. Eg:

"The victory of Gustavus Adolphus at the Battle of Breitenfeld (1631), [b]secured under the command of the Finnish Field Marshal Gustaf Horn[/b]"

Not only was Gustaf Horn not a Finn, but giving him the credits is quite over the top. Sections about "famous Finnish Hakkapelitta winning all battles" seem to be popping up all over the place as well...

[edit] Germans?

-helped the Germans by leading an army against the Holy Roman Empire- Are you speaking of Austrians, Bavarians, Brandenburgern, Hessen, Holsteinern, ... Sachsen and many many more. You cannot speak of Germans easily in this context.

Axinya

Well, since many of the Germans were in rebellion against the Emperor and the Catholic Church, i guess "Germans" could be taken as a generalization of the inhabitants of the HRE. -Alex 12.220.157.93 21:06, 4 January 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Mazarin

"A year later, Louis XIII died, leaving his five-year-old son Louis XIV on the throne. His regent, Cardinal Mazarin, began to work toward a restoration of peace. "

Mazarin was certainly not the regent. He was the chief minister of Anna of Austria, Queen Regent. --PK-- 12:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edict of Restitution/Stralsund

I removed a sentence relating to emigration of Bohemian and Austrian Protestants from the paragraph on the Edict. The Edict had no force in Bohemia and Austria, which were outside the Empire. Ferdinand was able to impose religious uniformity as King of Bohemia, Duke of Styria, etc. a process he started well before 1629.

I altered a statement that Stralsund had no allies while besieged by Wallenstein. It was garrisoned by forces in the pay of the Danes and then the Swedes.

--CWA-- 11 Jan 06

Bohemia and Austria not in the Empire???? Wasn't it only because of his role as King of Bohemia that a Habsburg was an Elector? Please amplify your statment that they were not parts of the HRR. --StanZegel (talk) 12:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You're correct on the Constitutional point. I'd argue that both areas were functionally outside the HRE, however. And, in any event, re-Catholicization in both well preceded the Edict, so I stand by my edit.

--CWA-- 16 Jan 06

[edit] Calvinist Bohemia

Bohemia was multi-religious with a Protestant majority (Hussites, Lutherans, Calvinists). I changed the adjective Calvinist to Protestant as relates to prewar Bohemia.

--CWA-- 12 Jan 06

[edit] The "Danish" War

I've corrected this to reflect that Christian did not lead an "invading" army": he acted as Duke of Holstein, a member of the Lower Saxon Circle, by his lights defending the rights of Lutheran lower Saxony. Richelieu was not a regent (Louis XIII had assumed direct rule by then and Richelieu was his privado/creature/favorite, although to avoid confusion I've used the style of first minister. Further, the Hague league consisted also of the Dutch and English and none of the lot of them ever paid their debts to Christian, so speaking of them as having paid for the war is untrue.

Duke Frederik was Christian's second son: Prince Elect Christian was heir-apparent in 1621. Frederik wound up King only because both Christians predeceased him in the later 1640's. He was elected coadjutor in 1621 not 1623.

Source: Lockhart, Denmark in the Thirty Years War

--CWA-- 18 Jan 06

[edit] The Peace of Prague

Clarified that the Peace only suspended the Edict and added language pointing out whose ox was gored by the selection of 1627 as the normaljahre.

Clarified that the new "Imperial" army was old wine in new bottles

Added a reference to the prohibition on foreign alliances (as well as intra-Imperial pacts)

Added a reference to the amnesty

Removed claims that the Peace legalized Calvinism (it didn't) and that it resolved the religious issues in the war (ditto).

Source (inter alia): Asch, The Thirty Years War

--CWA 17:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battle Information

I have added to what is the best of my knowledge historically accurate accounts and stats to the followings battles and personalities, as I found some fields lacking and/or historically inaccurate:

Battle of Pilsen (# of Rebel troops)

Battle of Weisloch (Stats, Rewrote the battle Info, Specified the location)

Battle of Wimpfen (Generals involved, troops numbers, rewrote the battle account, Protestant casualties)

Battle of Hochst(Mentioned the act that it is a disputed victory for the Catholics, added generals involved, troop numbers, casualties, Battle account, political repercussions pertaining to the battle)

Battle of Fleurus (Updated the generals involved, wrote the battle account)

Battle of Stadtlohn (Troop numbers, casualties, rewrote the battle account, wrote on implications of the battle.)

Battle of Dessau Bridge (Wrote the battlke account, troop numbers, casualties, generals involved, implications)

I wrote or contributed articles on the following personalities:

Christian of Brunswick (I was amazed that noone had written on him, as he is in my opinion one of the more coloful generals of the war, almost a rock star. I hope that this article is enjoyed and valuable)

Ambrogio di Spinola (I will be deleting my article tonight and correcting any mistaken links. My apologies for creating a dual article)

I also gave mentions to the General Gonzalez de Cordoba and mentioned his participation in several battle during the 'Palatine Phase' of the war as he is often not given credit for assisting Tilly in his victories or his own individual actions. I was and am unable to found any accounts on his life. I have left links open to him should anyone be able to do so.

I hope that this information is found valauble and contributing to the Thirty Years' War page as a whole, criticism and contributions are welcome.

Joshcurry 1/22

Corrections on the events leading up to and after Stadtlohn, mentioned that it was Christian of Brunswick, not Mansfeld who was defeated there. Also gvae information regarding the armistice between Frederick V and Ferdinand II

[edit] Stadlohn &c.

Fleurus was a skirmish. Even Guthrie, in his frankly guns-and-drums history, gives it no more than a few lines. The rest corrected per Guthrie vol. 1 pp. 105-06.

Source: Guthrie, Battles of the Thirty Years War

CWA 02:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frederick V and Armistice

Re-added the note that Frederick surrendered upon the news of his losses at Stadtlohn, changed the link so that it will go to the battle information instead of town information. I will be adding geographic pictures to my developed battle pages soon.

Could you please provide a citation for your statement that Frederick V surrendered? Also the reference to exile is puzzling as well. Frederick had been sitting in the Hague making a nuisance of himself since shortly after White Mountain, and there he would remain. He didn't go anywhere just because Halberstadt got his come-uppance.

CWA 21:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

My armistice/surrender citation is from David Eggenberger's "A Dictonary of Battles" (1967,) the quote suggesting this armistice comes from his entry on the Battle of Statdlohn

""The battle of Stadtlohn finished Christian, the "mad Halberstadtler," as an effective commander of Protestant forces. Three days later [bearing in mind that the battle was Aug. 6,] all hope abandoned, the elector palatine (and briefly King of Bohemia), Frederick V, signed an armistice with Tilly's superior, Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor."

It was after this point that he was unable to dictate the mounting of any further campaigns under his own finances or will. It was to my understanding as well that between White Mountain and the fall of Heidelberg, he had directed the war from that respective city before fleeing to The Hague. This knowledge is backed by the following quote from Encyclopedia Brittanica regarding his situation.

"He fled to The Hague in 1622 and for the rest of his life lived on money supplied by the Dutch and English. When Sweden joined the anti-Habsburg coalition, Frederick followed Gustavus II Adolphus in his march across Germany (1630–32), but he died before he was able to reclaim his throne. "

This can be found on the Britannica website under 'Frederick the Winter King"

This statement is the reason why I mentioned that he was forced into exile. He did not simply go from Bohemia to The Hague and conduct his war from there. He returned to his original home in The Palatinate and conducted his war from there using Mansfeld and Christian. He fled when it became apparent that The Palatinate was also lost.

Yes he did seek to have his kingdom restored to him, and only when major Protestant nations joined the war did he make a credible attempt to regain his throne on the coattails of Gustavus Adolphus. But at the point of the war that we are speaking of, he had no allies left that were militarilky capable of invading the HRE, he was forced to sign a armistice that cost him his titles as Imperial elector, he lost all of his land, and the armies that he had deployed were either immobile or decimated. Would you not consider the signing of a armistice under the terms that he was given at this point a surrender?

JC 1/26 3:10AM CST

Note: I reworded my sentence mentioning his exile to be chronologically correct, making it clear that he was forced into exile in 1622, before Stadtlohn and his signing of the August 9 armistice, not after his signing. My apologies for the misleading on that detail.

I've looked in the Cambridge Modern History, Gindely, Parker (the text and the chronological tables at the front) and Wedgewood. Only in the last is there any mention of an armistice, and that purports to be dated as of three weeks (not days) from the battle. No detail is given.

I also checked the relevant section in Pursell's biography of Frederick, which gives a proper account of what happened. As part of James I/VI's Spanish Match manouvering, Isabella (on behalf of Spain) had given Frederick three months to agree to enter into negotations to be held under her auspices. The Emperor had signed on to this initiative as well. James kept pressuring his son-in-law to accede, which he refused to do. Finally, after Stadlohn (and after the deadline had expired), James I/VI threatened to cut off his daughter and grandchildren without a farthing Frederick reluctantly agreed:

"On 26 August 1623 . . . Frederick signed the suspension of arms, under duress of his debts, according to Camerarius. Apparently all allowances from England, even those meant for Elizabeth and her children, would have been cut off if Frederick did not comply. But there was nothing to fear from any peace conference; he had signed the document after the expiration of the three months alloted for the organization of the peace conference in Cologne. The Infanta in Brussels said that it was necessary to appeal for the Emperor's affirmation once again. There was no settlement to be had regarding the Holy Roman Empire."

Pursell, p. 203.

As this alleged peace was, quite literally, a dead letter, I really think reference to it should be removed.

CWA 03:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I added a compromised section regarding the exit of Frederick V, but no solid mention of a truce. This will be until I can find solid literary evidence outside of the sources that I've already used. -JoshCurry 2/2

[edit] Inaccuracy abounds in this article!

Excuse me, but this article is completely inaccurate! As a historian, I've spent much of my life studying this war. Some of the information here is completely preposterous. I shall be correcting the false statements. Before I do, however, I would like to suggest that those who do not know the subject should not be posting inaccurate information.

Welcome -- and welcome to your "expert" opinion. Before you begin any extensive changes, it would be best for you to sign in as a Wiki user so people can "talk" to you. Also, concensus and interaction is important here, so please discuss your changes on the talk pages and cite your sources. Best wishes. WBardwin 01:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map labels the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth as Kingdom of Poland, which is inaccurate. Would someone mind fixing this error? Appleseed (Talk) 22:52, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clan Munro battle info

If there are any experts out there, does anyone know which battles the Clan Munro fought in during the 30 years war ? I know that two successive Chiefs of the clan died during their time there. Sir Hector Munro died in 1635 made 1st baronet by Charles I - died in Hamburg, Germany and Robert Munro died in 1633, the black baron served in the 30 years war - died at Ulm, Germany.

Any info would be great.

[edit] Request for inlince citations

This is a pretty good article, but it desperatly needs proper inline citations to progress further.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of "Good articles", just to help anyone who might review this, can anyone tell me whether the article was written solely with the references below or with something else? Homestarmy 19:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Inline referencing is needed here. Also, some POV tone issues ("French attrocities" in the lead, for instance) need addressing. --CTSWyneken^(talk) 18:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article status

This is on hold for 7 days for these reasons: there are no inline citations, whould should be in cite php format; there are only 4 references-I'm sure there are more. Otherwise, a very nice article.Rlevse 13:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Failed, no action taken.Rlevse 19:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Habsburgs thinking of England?

Currently the article states — in the Origins of the war section — "the Habsburg emperors who followed Charles V ... aware of the deathly evils and turmoil England had suffered due to official religious intolerance" What evidence is there that England's experience was in the minds of the Habsburg emperors? A cited source here would be helpful. Stumps 07:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

England had been an ally of Germany until the reformation; they both shared troublesome borders with France (when England was on the continent). Therefore, it is hard to imagine that the Emperor did not look at England, which was also the subject of the Spanish Crusade against Elizabeth.

[edit] The last paragraph- separation of church and state

At the end of this article there is reference to the US constitution containing a statement about separation of church and state. This is a fallacy. NO WHERE does the US constitution talk about the separation of church and state. This is a mis interpretation of the first amendment which only states "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It is a limitation on the powers of congress not extending the powers of government to stop religious expression in the public sphere. READ YOUR CONSTITUTION.

[edit] Beginning of article

The article wrote: In the decades after the war, while Austria and its German allies were busy defending against the Ottoman Empire in the Great Turkish War, which included such large conflicts as Battle of Vienna, France under King Louis XIV took the opportunity for aggressive expansion on both sides of the Rhine. The biography of Ezechiel du Mas, Comte de Melac illustrates the French atrocities in Southern Germany: he devastated the region using the slogan Burn the Palatinate!. The memories of these events that define the history of most cities in the area, along with lasting French annexions of territories such as the Alsace, and the repetition of the occupation in the Napoleonic Wars, led to the so-called French-German enmity and ultimately played a part in the origin of two World Wars.

This exceeds what should be written in the beginning of an article. Further, it is too focussed. And especially the part about Melac refers to history after the Thirty Years' War. I will delete it from the article. -- Zz 13:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calvinists or Protestants

Who threw Wilhelm Grav Slavata and Jaroslav Borzita Graf Von Martinicz out of the palace windows? the Calvinists or the Protestants? according to this article its the Calvinists who did that but according to Defenestrations of Prague article it's the Protestants who did it. --152.14.80.161 15:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Calvinists are Protestants but not all Protestants are Calvinists. Protestant simply means one in "protest" to the Catholic Church. So to use the term Protestant in reference to a Calvinist is completely appropiate. The real differentiation is between Lutherans and Calvinists which should be made clear in both articles. HuronKing. October 2nd 2006.

Agreed HuronKing. Even people knowledgeable about history do not always know that both Lutherans and Calvinists are Protestants. This distinction is important for understanding of the Thrity Years war. -Sensemaker

I have found this mistake in a lot of articles about 30 years war and similar. It's fact that Protestants include majority (if not all? - I'm not sure) of Western-Christian religions, that separated from Catolics. But the important thing to say is that there were not a lot of Lutherans or Calvinists in Bohemia, they were Hussits (Utraquists) - and it's very different from other main Protestant religions (by the way, I think it was the 1st one). From the times of J. Hus, through the Hussite wars, reign of George of Podebrady, there were many of them. Bohemia was a religiously tolerant country almost 100 years before Schmalkalten war (Cuius regio, eius religio). The "fraction" of Czech Brothers existed in Bohemia - its well known bishop was J.A.Komensky himself, etc. So, is here anyone else who knows it "better" than me? I'm very sorry, but I don't know all thehistorical names in English and I didn't have a lot of time to seatch for it. Thus, I don't want to make any corrections now. -- J. Indracek, 25th December 2006

[edit] Clarity

The article is very unclear. Please seperate the paragraphs further into smaller ones, or else show a timeline for one to follow. I found it difficult to understand - All i understood was that there was a protestant rebellion against the Catholic Holy Emperor, and that the combined arms of Sweeden and France won, mostly. Oh and that Denmark failed. As for the various rebellions and events, those were coming out of nowhere and ending before they were explained well.

[edit] Introduction

The introduction ends by saying that:

"The war may have lasted for 30 years, but conflicts continued for 300 more years." [my bolding}

The "300 years" comment seems a rather odd one to make. Especially since it is not followed up by any kind of comment or explanation. Unless someone can come up with a good reason for keeping it I suggest we remove it. KarlXII 15:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe whoever wrote that wanted to say that wars in Central, Nothern, and Western Europe continued for 300 years but after that (id est after World War II) we have had peace for more than sixty years in a row now. That's a reflection that is fairly interesting, I wouldn't hasitate to include is as a finishing remark in a book or an essay about the Thirty Years War. However, I do not think it is really relevant to an article about the Thirty Years War in an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is supposed to stick to the subject more stringently than an essay or a book. Besides in the formulation above, it is lacking in clarity. -Sensemaker

[edit] Cause for Swedish intervention

The reasons for Swedish intervention are stated as "to forestall Catholic aggression against their homeland and to obtain economic influence in the German states around the Baltic Sea." Judging from the debate in the Riksdag and royal propaganda, the wish to help fellow protestants was a reason mentioned at least as often as any other. I'm adding this. -Sensemaker

That would make a lot more sense considering that the war was about the right to worship in different churches (with the exception of the political aims of France).

[edit] Transilvania

Why isn't Transilvania among beligerant countries? At the end of the war, the Treaty of Westfalia recognised that Transilvania was part of the winners' alliance as an independent country.--Alex:Dan 11:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strenght of the Armies involved

The numbers wasn't permanent along the war but, counting the highest peaks, the swedish army wasn't only 40-75 thousand men as say at the beginning of the article, but in fact 149.000 as say in the "Swedish intervention" section of this own article. So i will change the initial exposition of sources with a round number of 150 thousand swedish men.

Here is the dates for the dutch army, page 54

http://www.pikeandshotsociety.org/documents/article4.pdf

"When the dutch army was increased to 77.000 in 1629 during the threatened Spanish invasion..."

So i have change it from 50 to 75 thousand men (round number)

-Fco

[edit] England, Scotland

Does anyone know why England and Scotland are listed as combatants? I'm pretty sure they weren't, and I can't see anything in the article that would explain it.194.176.105.40 16:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)