Talk:Tomboy

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Contents 1 Tomboys and Sissies 2 Category 3 Origin of the phrase 4 one of the reasons of the occurrance of TB 5 Velma from Scooby-Doo 6 Spoiled brats? 7 Causes? 8 ==Adulthood== 9 Proposal to remove section: Notable tomboys in fiction 10 What justifies someone as being a tomboy? 11 Useful references 12 Categories 13 Then again 14 Occam's Razor

[edit] Tomboys and Sissies

The recent edits by 172.202.49.165, while containing much truth, struck me as very POV, not to mention unsupported. While it is true that boyishness is often more accepted in girls than girlishness in boys, I do not think that it is to the extent that 172.202.49.165 has stated, certainly not for adolesents and older children; and at any rate, (s)he did not provide links to any studies describing the relative treatment of gender-bending girls and boys. If anyone can provide any resources about this, please do. Writing under the IP 216.77.96.34 (forgot to log in), I've tried to edit the article in such a way as to mention the relation to feminine boys, while still keeping the focus on tomboys and their experiances. - solvent 15:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

About the gay/lesbian connection, in the Philippines, tomboy is the term for lesbian, especially butch lesbians. I don't have any formal citations, but it's mentioned in the Wikipedia articles on both Philippine English, and Homosexuality in the Philippines. The term was almost certainly borrowed from American English during the American occupation. I'm not sure if this article's focused primarily on the American usage, but if anyone wants to edit that in, feel free. 68.234.12.90 04:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

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"and this has been held up by many gender role students as the "ideal" female lifestyle"

First, who are these "gender role students"? Second, do "gender role students" have more insight or authority to give arbitrary superlatives of what is "ideal"? third, what does this statement has to do with the article? -- Rotem Dan 08:13 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I assume it's referring to a degree in "gender studies" at university. Studying a subject for several years arguably gives you a degree of authority and insight. I think there's a fairly clear connection with the subject. However, it should be attributed to a named advocate:

Si Cologist of the University of Hampshire wrote in his thesis tomboys and boy toys (1997) that "a mixture of stereotypically male and stereotypically female behaviour is ideal".

Martin 09:26 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Just be aware that this is a form of argument from authority, which is a logical fallacy. -- Rotem Dan 09:40 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Reread appeal to authority. Then come back if you're still convinced this is a logical fallacy. Martin 09:49 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

You have convinced me, experts know what they are talking about, and citing a "real" expert is always a true statement. and does not deserve any underlying reasoning to be explained -- Rotem Dan 10:03 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Can anyone attribute all of the quotes in this article, especially the one in the Notes section? If we have a word-for-word quote from some one, we should really be able to attribute it. Paige 14:04, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I found a ref - no idea if it's worth including, though. Martin 14:50, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Martin, I think that's perfect. I really think quotes should be referenced whenever possible, so that does the job quite well! Thanks, Paige 18:41, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC) :-)

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Sorry for not attributing the quote - i didn't know i had to :(

What that girl said was interesting in its own way - i would have thought being in the "middle" meant that a girl would be all pink and girly girl sometimes and all tomboy-ish other times - instead she's rejected both. i'm not a girl so i can't say wether that's a mistake or not. Can anyone of the female gender give their view on it? PMelvilleAustin 23:51, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

It's no problem, Paul, is it? Or just P? I just think that it always helpful to credit quotes to the speaker, even if the speaker is some one no one recognizes. I mean, that quote has a much different context if it comes from say a Britney Spears as it would if it comes from a Rosie O'Donnell, right? This way, readers can see the source and judge for themselves if they want.

Personally, though, I don't know how representative my views are for other women. But I think that this "middle" is one idea, your original assumption is another, tomboy another, girly girl yet another, etc. No matter what any one else's opinion of it it, modern women are going to behave differently from eachother and often differently from the traditional views or gender roles. I think what this speaker was saying was something akin to all good things in moderation, which is certainly a respected view in most areas. Paige 15:22, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"a girl would be all pink and girly girl sometimes and all tomboy-ish other times - instead she's rejected both."Well,sir,isn't that practically impossible?If you cut off the "all"s it could be.

Well, in reply to the question,your description is more like "sometimes" than "middle".I myself am in the middle.I simply can't stand "prisses",yet I'm not dying to be a guy.. and I can't stand pink, yet I'm not the sport's obsessed stereotype of a guy.And I don't look forward to a first date or a first kiss or anything like that. So what am I?In the "middle"?Someone respond.-Anonymous

Just out of interest why can't you stand pink? and prissyness is not synonumous with femininity is it? PMA 22:48, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I somehow just don't like it. Too bright. Symbolic of all the too-typical feminine roles. Aye, I suppose prissyness isn't exactly the same as feminity. Prissyness is sort of like being a "girly-girl", while being feminine is just...well, the fact that you're a female. I mean, I'm growing up with a whole group of kids, both girls and boys. We hang out together, sit together at lunch with no problem. I mean, of course we have the occasional gender-related joking and aguments, but otherwise, we treat everyone the same. And all the girls I'm friends with aren't girly-girls either, so we're all basically "middles" together. Like, we don't really like the "prisses". Heh, I want to study psychology when I'm older, don't mind the rattling on.-SameAnonymous

I guess a tomboy is what the French refer to as a "garçon manqué"?!

[edit] Category

Why is this categorized as popular culture? Hyacinth 20:14, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You're right this article is about human behaviour, not pop culture. I've now removed it from the "pop culture" category. Walden 21:27, 2004 Sep 14 (UTC)

Thanks. Hyacinth 05:10, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the phrase

Anyone know where the term "TomBoy" comes from? It is kinda odd - shouldn't it be tomGIRL, logically? Just wondering where it came from.

Here are two explanations of its origin: cliches and expressions origins at businessballs.com and wordwatch, Tomboy at ABC NewsRadio - take your pick. --David Edgar 11:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] one of the reasons of the occurrance of TB

"a school mostly of boys, hence the tomboy befriends few girls. "

To a large extent, in Hong Kong, TB are commonly found in girls' school whereas not easily found in a co-educational school. This can be explained by the teenage girls in girls school have rarely chance to meet the boys. At the same time, some of them Therefore, I quite disagree with the above issue.

While I don't agree with the statement either (just due to a lack of evidence) I want to point out that the Hong Kong "TB" is a bit different from the term "tomboy" being discussed here. TB is usually accompanied by a distinct style of hair, clothing, speech, and actions, and in every case I've encountered, homosexuality. The Hong Kong term "TB" is usually likened to the English term "butch". The term tomboy here is not as systematic a defiance of gender roles as TB is, nor does it directly relate to homosexuality. 142.151.132.98

[edit] Velma from Scooby-Doo

An anonymous editor just added Velma to the list of fictional tomboys. I'm not familiar enough with Scooby Doo to remove it, but I question it. She's something of a stereotypical nerd, but that in and of itself is not an indication of being a tomboy. Just look at Hermione from Harry Potter! She's rumored to be a lesbian, but again, that is not the same as a tomboy. Can anyone support her inclusion on this list? --Icarus 22:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Considering that Velma always did her hair up in hairpins and wore a short, pleated skirt with feminine shoes, I would argue that she is not a tomboy according to the definition provided here. A nerd, a geek, certainly, but her mode of dress is not at all masculine nor even neutral. In my world, Velma might be considered a tomboy, but I don't happen to agree with this pages description in a lot of places. 71.110.172.13 01:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC) , a self-proclaimed tomboy.

[edit] Spoiled brats?

I'm a bit taken aback that one of the EOF links is to the Wikipedia article on "Spoiled brats." Are tomboy qualities generally considered to correlate with permissive parents? If so, this should be mentioned or explained in the article. As it is, it seems to me that the link is included as a not-so-subtle POV expression trying to imply tomboy <:> spoiled. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.114.196.240 (talk • contribs) 11:59, 6 August 2006.

I don't really understand why someone added this to the See also section. It may have been for the reasons you proposed, or it may have simply been because it's another category into which various childhood behaviors are sorted. I'll go ahead and remove it because it doesn't seem to really fit. --Icarus ^(Hi!) 19:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Causes?

There's a list of causes, what about the possibility that a tomboyish girl just has different interests than most girls? You dont have to have messed up genes to like video games and sports better than dolls and makeup, part of it is just what people like to do/wear/behave like.

You're right, I do think tomboyishness is a matter of personal preference and personality. In my opinion, girls do girl stuff because "that's what girls do", and vice versa. I think tomboyishness or girlishness can also be a result of personal history(like personality). --Apocalypse FP 03:48, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ==Adulthood==

The claims in the Adulthood section are pretty controvertial, and without a reference. I'm going to remove it, but if anyone can find a reference, feel free to put it back in. Chovain 12:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to remove section: Notable tomboys in fiction

This list appears to be a little out of hand. I'd like to see it removed entirely, as by its very nature, is subjective, and will never be complete. None of the entries are sourced, and we have no idea how many of them are tomboys, and how many may be vandalism. Does anyone have any thoughts? Chovain 04:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the list necessarily needs to be totally removed, but it definitely needs to be reduced. It is, after all, supposed to be a list of notable tomboys in fiction, not a list of every character ever created who just happens to be a tomboy! The anime/manga section is especially problematic, as while one or two examples would be acceptable, it's the most prone to abuse seeing as "the tomboy" is a very common archetype in anime and manga. What we need is a stricter definition of "notable" for this list. --Icarus ^(Hi!) 01:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is this: Who decides which Tomboys are notable? I originally wanted to propose that the list be moved to a separate article, List of notable tomboys in fiction, but the article would clearly fail the objectivity criteria in WP:LIST. Perhaps it could be reduced to two or three examples to be included in the introduction prose (but reliably referenced to raise the bar a little on adding new ones!) Chovain 13:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree - reduce it to characters such as Jo March and Scout Finch. PMA 15:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Any chance of doing a citation search for them? :D Chovain 03:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not move it to a separate article List of tomboys in fiction? That would easily fit with the existing articles in Category:Lists of fictional characters by distinguishing feature. I wouldn't like to see the list completely removed. But some examples should definitely remain in the article, to illustrate the topic. (I'd consider George from the Famous Five serious to be the archetypal tomboy.) --David Edgar 16:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind that just because other lists exist does not mean they should. The criteria for valid lists is defined by WP:LIST. Lists must have objective criteria for inclusion. Tomboys fail that one outright. I read a study somewhere while looking for citations for the Tomboy article, that suggested over 70% of female Americans reported exhibiting tomboy-ish behaviour as a child (I wish I could find it now). That gives some indication of not only the frequency of "tomboyish" behaviour is, but also the breadth of peoples definitions of tomboyishness.

Category:Lists of fictional characters by distinguishing feature is a mixed bunch:

• List of fictional left-handed characters has great potential as a list. Lists such as that one can be objectively defined, and entries can be sorted cited (Although that particular list unfortunately has none).
• List of fictional nerds is a bad example. What is a Nerd? Who decides if <Insert character here> is a nerd or not? The talk page raises a few such concerns.

A category is another alternative here: That gives automatic protection against non-notable entries being added (as they need to be notable to have an article), but makes citation even harder to enforce.

Chovain 03:40, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

While we discuss this, I'm going to move the list to effectively freeze the list User:Chovain/List of tomboys in fiction Chovain 10:37, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What justifies someone as being a tomboy?

I know a tomboy is a female that acts like a boy. The list at the top of this article doesn't seem to fit. I saw a girl one time wearing boys' clothes, though she acts like a girl. Another girl really likes subjects like math and science, she acted like a girl. I could list as many examples as I have to. I just don't think that just because a girl happens to fit the article's description of being a tomboy, she is a tomboy. Apocalypse FP 00:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - There are papers in this area, too. I have this page on my "list of pages I really want to improve when I get the time". Feel free to get in before me by looking for a third party definition (preferably from a respectable Psych journal) and update it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chovain (talk • contribs) 01:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

The list at the top isn't diagnostic, and isn't meant to be. Tomboys are more likely to wear boyish clothing. That doesn't change just because non-tomboys sometimes wear boyish clothing, too. To use an extreme example for the purpose of illustration, objecting to this list would be kind of like objecting to any references to coughing in the article on tuberculosis on the grounds that there are many other conditions that cause coughing. (I just noticed that using the word "diagnostic" and then a disease analogy might make it seem like I think there's something wrong with tomboys, so let me just clarify that nothing could be further from the truth.) It would make no sense to say that tomboys act like boys without giving examples of how that might manifest in an individual. Clarify if you will that the list is merely a description of traits that girls who are tomboys are likely to have, not a field guide to spotting tomboys in the wild. The list is still valuable to the article. --Icarus ^(Hi!) 09:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact still remains that the list is completely uncited when there are plenty of papers out there on the topic. I still plan to clean it up with refs when I get the time :). Chovain 09:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I know the list isn't diagnostic. That section seems to be worded in a misleading way. I would use more words like can or not limited to. Also, doing boy stuff isn't necessarily going to make a girl act like a boy. It just seems to be a matter of personal preference. Icarus, this is psycology, not biology. I'm not saying this article is a "field guide". I'm saying one of the things we should do is re-word the article so it is accurate and has more sources. --Apocalypse FP 23:46, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I think I see what you're going for now. It probably could benefit from a little re-wording, and sources are always a good thing! I wasn't sure what you were proposing at first, and I think I might have jumped to conclusions. I don't remember exactly what I thought you were proposing, but now that you've clarified it sounds perfectly reasonable. Sorry if I came off as callous or accusatory in any way! --Icarus ^(Hi!) 07:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I made a little edit(sorry I took so long). The edit just above the list. All I did was extend the last sentence. I'll do more research and change it more later. --Apocalypse FP 03:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted your edit. I don't think it really improves the paragraph as the sentence already said, "...typically manifests itself in certain individuals through one or more of the examples ...". Your edit also introduced a grammatical error and fails to solve the root problem, which is that the lead section does not cite references. Chovain 06:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I'm pretty new to this type of thing. If I'm going to make a change, I'll post it here on the talk page before I change the article. Meanwhile, I'll try to cite references, do research, and etc. --Apocalypse FP 06:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Useful references

There appears to be a shortage of freely available papers about tomboys. I propose that we start a list here. If anyone finds content (freely available or otherwise), please add it to the list. I am hoping to search for hard-copies of these in libraries at some point in the future, but it's likely to be a while. If anyone else is able to get to them before me, could you possibly summarise any key concepts in this table? (Please remember that while it is ok to paraphrase, it is usually illegal to copy the words.) Chovain 10:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Reference	Discussion
"Who Are Tomboys and Why Should We Study Them?" (fee required). Archives of Sexual Behavior.	From the abstract: This article apparently found that tomboys tend to be more masculine than their sisters, but less masculine than their brothers. I'm interested to know what measures they refer to. Chovain 10:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"A Three Generational Study of Tomboy Behavior" (fee required). Sex Roles 39 (9-10): 657-823.	This is the article I referred to in an earlier post. From the abstract: It claims that 67% of participants in their study reported exhibiting tomboyish behaviour. It also gives average ages that behaviour started and stopped, which could go well in the article. It also makes an interesting claim about inter-generational differences. Chovain 10:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"Sissiness, tomboyism, sex-role, sex identity and orientation" (abstract only). Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 29 (2): 278-83.	From the abstract: This article looks at both male sissiness and female tomboyism. It finds that sissiness is a predictor of homosexuality, but that tomboyism is not a predictor of lesbianism. It suggests that tomboyism is linked with prenatal hormonal factors, which is consistent with the existing reference. Chovain 10:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
"Tomboyism" (abstract only). Psychology of Women Quarterly 2 (1): 73.	Only the abstract is available unless you have a subscription. From the abstract: Tomboyism was thought to be rare and not normal. During an observation, 63% of junior-high students said they were tomboys while 51% of adults said they were tomboys when they were children. Tomboyism is common and not abnormal. --Apocalypse FP 07:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I think this article fits to several other categories not yet listed. I just added some myself, but I'm pretty sure I overlooked categories. While the article looks pretty scientific to me, the categories hardly show(ed) this. I'm pretty sure this article can be a part of social or physological studies. Can anyone with more knowledge on the various sciences dealing with this subject expand the categories? Thanks in advance! Syrion 21:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Then again

Since "Tomboy" has a article, so sould "Tomgirl".--66.233.13.77 20:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Occam's Razor

Western femininity is false, tomboys are following proper natural femininity. That is, plainness and ... lack of.. flamboyancy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 01:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC).