Template talk:Top Gear info

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[edit] The Stig's role on Top Gear

He's credited as a presenter, so leave it be. --293.xx.xxx.xx 09:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem debating matters however I do not appreciate being told to "leave it be". You've done a good job with this template, however the above comment suggests a feeling of ownership. As to the issue at hand, I've copied my comment from Talk:Top Gear:

Yes he's credited as a presenter on the show's end titles, however no definition of "presenter" could extend to what he does. As well as being described as a presenter he's also given crazy introductions on every episode such as "Some say the outline of his left nipple is exactly the same shape as the Nürburgring". In my opinion his description as a presenter is as tongue in cheek as those. Important member of the crew? Yes. Presenter? No. An encyclopedia should contain facts, not be constrained by external conventions etc. Mark83 17:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with you on both matters. I don't think requesting that you leave the template as-is represents an ownership claim at all, merely a belief that you're making something that was accurate less so.

Further, remember that Wikipedia's standard for inclusion is verifiability. We don't need to "define" what a presenter is, we merely need to be able to cite a reliable source which refers to him as a presenter. The credits of the programme do exactly that. You're suggesting that the encyclopedia should dismiss a primary source in favour of your opinion that it's tongue-in-cheek?

So, your edit now conflicts with User:293.xx.xxx.xx, User:Blah3 and myself, all of whom have now either reverted your edit or explicitly expressed disagreement. Do you need more editors to dispute your interpretation of the credits before you back down, or is three of us enough to avoid edit-warring? --DeLarge 22:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Your comment about verifiability is a fair one. However using that logic I could edit the Stig article and include every crazy comment that's ever been made in the introduction as fact and cite the episode number. Would you really think that was suitable for an encyclopedia? Mark83 14:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you just being facetious for the sake of argument, or do you honestly not know the difference between the content of a light-entertainment show, and the credits at the end? Please see this BBC guideline for further explanation. I, meanwhile, shall revert the template. --DeLarge 19:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the comment about adding all his introductions was not meant to be taken literally. I have to say though, I'm sure you don't mean to be rude but you're comments could be taken as such; "Do you need more editors to dispute your interpretation of the credits before you back down, or is three of us enough" and "Are you just being facetious ... or do you honestly not know the difference..." could be taken as dimissive and patronising.

A central pillar of WP is assume good faith. I'm assuming that you are only trying to preserve the quality of the project which is why I've taken the time to respond politely to the queries raised about this subject. Likewise you should assume that I am only trying to ensure the information is accurate. I have never denied he is credited as a presenter, I've seen the show many times and didn't need the image above to remind me, my point is is the credit justified? As I said in my previous comment, your point about defining vs. citing is a fair one. However I repeat that Wikipedia should contain facts, not be constrained by external conventions etc. and the fact is that no definition of presenter could be applied to him. Having said all that I don't to intend to remove it again. Mark83 22:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, we stick to what BBC has done. Top Gear lists him as a presenter, despite the fact he never speaks. Unless you can produce any other verifiable source that The Stig ain't a presenter, then please present your evidence. Otherwise, your edits are unconstructive. Also, i've never expressed any "ownership" to the template, as other editors have edited it by adding past presenters and deleting my insert of the Top Gear Logo and I never complained or drastically went psycho over the edits. --293.xx.xxx.xx 10:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

He never was, is, or will be a "presenter". It's just a tounge-in-cheek think that he's credited as such at the end of the programme, in the same way that it was tounge-in-cheek when they went to America and all the casts names were Americanised. If we took that a face-value the producer would Andy "dubya" Wilman. The Stig should be removed from the presenters and a new section should be added for "Also Starring" which should also include Top Gear Dog and Sabine Schmidt. Davesmith33 14:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Please stop vandalising the template. By all means discuss a proposed change here (explaining your reasons why you think Sabine qualifies as a presenter) but please don't make changes that you know are controversial without gaining some consensus first. DrFrench 18:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sabine isn't a presenter and isn't listed as so. Neither is Top Gear Dog. What are you moaning about? They are both part of the show and so are listed in others. Are you suggesting they are less important than, for example, Jon Bentley???? The Stig is listed (wrongly) as a presenter (like you wanted) so I can't see what the problem is. End of discussion. Davesmith33 18:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Can I just clarify your point of view here? You are allowed to make edits in contravention of the consensus. Anyone else making edits is told to "discuss changes on the talk page" (see the edit summary on the history page for 18:05 UTC 2007-04-01 ). When anyone attempts to discuss it on the talk page you summarily decide that the discussion is at an end. Is that a fair summary? DrFrench 19:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added Sabine Schmidt to the infobox as I feel (and others may disagree) that she was/is as much a part of the programme as Jon Bentley was/is. Please discuss. Davesmith33 20:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. She was on 2 or 3 episodes. Bentley was a producer for 10 years. Hardly the same. Dave, on Wikipedia it doesn't matter what you feel, you must back things up with evidence. Having Sabine is fancruft. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, by that standard (appearing on 2 or 3) episodes, we should list every celebrity that has appeared on Top Gear more than once. Obviously that makes little little sense. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Presenters

Well, don't shoot me, but shouldn't Clarkson and May also be listed under Original Format Presenters? ^† DBD 15:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. I'll add them. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TG Dog

Shouldn't Top Gear Dog also be added, seeing as she was introduced as quote, "a new presenter". Davesmith33 22:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No. TDG has been done to death elsewhere. Consensus is to exclude it. DrFrench 22:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)