Talk:Touch rugby

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1 Disambig
2 Thx to Mister Grinner for deleting the work
3 Changes
4 I don't understand?
5 September 6 2005
6 Rules 12 September
7 touch rugby/touch football
8 Email
9 External links
10 USA
11 Proposed merge with Touch football (rugby league)

[edit] Disambig

Right I was very bold, and have made wholesale changes. Sorry but the whole thing was a mess. Grinner 14:30, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Good work!!! lord knows i couldn't have been bothered doing that :) POds 03:38, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh man... i wouldn't have created 'touch rugby union'. POds 05:48, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thx to Mister Grinner for deleting the work

i made a lot of work to translate the french page and you doesn't want it :( and touch rugby and touch football is the same sport, we have the same rules(the FIT) only australian calls that sport touch football the french english etc... call it touch rugby so please return back the old version of rules Goldensun 15:23, 6 September 2005 (UTC) And please write the new discution down the page

Dont worry mate, i took all your hard translated text and replaced the "basics section" + a few others, with what you wrote. Have a look, i think it looks totaly grovey now!!! That is if you can confirm your translations was of the rules which are played in france which are played under FIT rules. :) Then all makes sense and i can get on with my life + wiki :) POds 03:46, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I really like the new changes, however, there are some issues:

The top paragraph says it is non codified. It also says its derived from rugby union and NOT from rugby league. YET there are specific rules like the rollball, 7 players on the field, the term "Dummy half" and the 5/6 touches your out.

As you call it, "the rollball", is also know as the "play the ball" and was introduced to rugby league in the early 19th century. Touch rugby soon developed in Australia, as a way for rugby league players & Union players to kept fit. Touch rugby thus spread out from Australia via the FIT which was set up by the Australia Touch Association!!!

My problem is, you claim, this page is for a code of touch rugby not codified and derived from rugby union, BUT, you've got rules which are exact duplicates of those of the FIT and dah.. rugby league, which, belongs in touch football (rugby league), not here... UNLESS. We could just make this the official touch rugby site and move a lot of the content from touch football (rugby league) to here, because the way things are going, two totaly similar pages are being created.

These rules do not differentiate it from what is known as touch football in any way, shape or form. POds 04:24, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

A distinction needs to be made between actual Touch Football http://www.internationaltouch.com.au/ and what appears to be a muck around game "A common time for it to be played is as an end of training session on the day before an important rugby game, to reduce to a minimum the chances of an accidental injury"

Good on 131.244.3.45 for fixing this up.

I have moved the more recent version of this article to Federation of International Touch (rugby) (FIT) as for many people Touch rugby is what is described above and after the edits made by user:131.244.3.45 06:31, 9 Mar 2005 this had become an article exclusivly about FIT.

If you wish to see the history of this article before today then you will have to go to the Federation of International Touch (rugby) and look at the history of that page prior to 06:31, 9 Mar 2005. as this is a revert to the information on this page before that edit Philip Baird Shearer 09:50, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] I don't understand?

What difference you make between touch rugby and touch rugby football I do touch touch rugby or touch in France with the rules of FIT so can you explain my because I don't understand why you do 2 articles and wher is the article for FIT Goldensun 00:49, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

your not really alone. I fail to see the point of this article. I also fail to see the point of the touch_football article having "rugby league" in brackets. Is a code that is only used for "much around", worthy of an article? Maybe would would be more appropriate is to add a section to the touch football article about, modified rules, or "much around" football, rather then dedicating a whole article to a game that doesnt really exist. Also, may i add, "touch rugby" is a very common name for what is now official known as touch football. Another option is to rename this article to "Muck around touch rugby", not that would ever happen. POds 04:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

This article is useless, it does not offer any new information that touch football (rugby league) already has, except to say, apparantly this mystery code exists. I'll give the guys some credit, because i know modified rules of touch rugby do exist, but i believe if there are any well known touch rugby modifications, then the story should be told in a FAR better way then it currently is! --- POds (2 hours ago?)

ok when i have time i translate all the article i write for french wiki you can read it if you understand the french fr:touch rugby Goldensun 16:18, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Ok, but just to make sure you know, if it has anything to do with the Federation of international touch, then this page is talking about the same sport as touch football (rugby league) POds 11:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, i still think this page should be made into a disambiguation (or however you spell that word) page, and this pages contents moved too, touch football (rugby union) if that is what your planning to write about. POds 12:00, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I would tend to think that the content of this page should be moved to touch football (rugby union) or touch rugby union, and this page (touch rugby) should be a disambig. Or to put it another way I agree with POds. Grinner 12:31, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

In the French wiki(and italian one) we have and article for touch rugby and one maybe in future for the FIT so i don't undestand what is this sport touch football I've never about it. I know my english is not very good(i'm french) but i can't understand why an article touch football (rugby league) and no article for FIT Goldensun 14:44, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

touch football (rugby league) is played according to the rules of FIT, thus FIT is the governing body. This page is about a "mess-around" game, with no set rules. Grinner

I play a sport call "touch rugby" or "touch" in france we have a french federation of touch and the french federation is in the rules of FIT(the mark, roll ball, tap ball and all rules with the dummy half) so if i understand touch football (rugby league) is the same as french touch rugby so there is a question why we don't use the same terms ?? Goldensun 14:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

You may want to refer to the website for the ATA. Touch rugby basicly had its start in Australia, and the first organisation to codify the rules was the ATA. The ATA has changed, the name of the sport it plays under several times. Currently, they prefer to call it touch football. I have an idea for this article, I'll make some changes later. POds 22:55, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

From the Federation of international touch website

Development throughout the world is mainly funded and resourced by the major member nations Australia and New Zealand.

In this sentence, they are referring to the ATA

The Federation of International Touch was formed at a meeting held in conjunction with the Australian National championships that were held in melbourne in 1995.

The Australian National Championships are conducted by the ATA

The ATA play, touch football, also known as, touch rugby. It's known as touch rugby because for many years and still today, rugby league and rugby union players use it in training and play it in the preseason to keep themselfs fit. POds 22:59, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

I played for about 20 years here in Australia - it's called touch, or touch footy. We had an English bloke playing for us for a bit, he's the only one I ever heard calling it touch rugby. The word "rugby" by itself means Union here, the game has little in common with RU, so calling it touch rugby makes little sense. So the touch footy article (not this one) should be called simply "Touch" but can't -it's taken. Touch football then? No, also taken. It was originally called Federation blah blah, never heard of it. So touch football (rugby league) seemed a good idea (to differentiate from American touch football). This page (touch rugby) was left to Philip Baird Shearer's et al idea of what RU players play (the muck around version). --Paul 16:43, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Its kinda hard to play touch rugby in a more union style. Thats probably why touch rugby developed with the league "play the ball". Rugby union players do play touch rugby the "normal way" (or rugby league way if your prefer that), but as i said somewhere else, there does appear to be a varient or two. But you say, "the world rugby by itself means Union here". And my response to that is that "this is an international website". POds 16:48, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

ok if i understand touch rugby is a game played by rugbyman for training, and touch football is a sport codified? so let me ask a question why football??american name(perhaps australian one)?? because you know in latin countries we used the term football for soccer. And for exemple in france the Australian rules football(played on onval field) called australian rugby. I understand the diffrence between rugby league and rugby union :) Goldensun 06:52, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

if i click on international in the ATA, i arrive in the FIT site [1] and you can see the french federation by clicking en France [2] so the ATA speak about the same sport as french :p Goldensun 06:58, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Bonjour. The short answer is that the English word "football" is much older than soccer. See football (word) and all will be revealed. (I hope.) :-)

Ok i've got a good idea.

Touch rugby is a term used to discribe derivatives of rugby football where touching replaces a tackle. The most common form of touch rugby is governed by the Federation of International Touch. There are many names for this particular form of touch rugby. In Australia it is officialy known as touch football. Almost every where else it is known as touch rugby or simply touch

This is what this page should be based on. Like the rugby football page, does not refer to any one distinct type of rugby, so should this page not refer to any one distinct type of touch rugby. It prolly is supposed to do this now, but doesnt do a good job of it. I'll prolly clean this up soon, as it looks as though it may never get done. POds 14:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree with POds i translate the french page soon and put it on Touch Rugby 213.36.108.157 15:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

to be continued Goldensun 19:35, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

But use Google and look up

["Touch Rugby" Union]
["non tackle" Rugby]
[non-contact/touch rugby]

Because it throws up other names for the game like "non-tackle" and "non-contact" which should considered in the above paragraph particularly as the RFU uses "non-contact/touch rugby". Philip Baird Shearer 14:07, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I dont have a problem with that, but it begs the question if those sports you talk about are more commonly labeled as "non contact rugby" then why don't you write about this sort of stuff in an article called non contact rugby and leave the touch rugby article for the sport that has been called touch rugby most likely since it's inception!!?!

[edit] September 6 2005

where do you find the new article? i know i put a lot of HTML but i can't do it without that because there a lot of levels(4 or 5) si i must do it the more clearly as i can for Pods i put the rucks and mauls etc... you deleted by your edition Goldensun 07:18, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

sorry? What article are you refering too? An article was moved to touch rugby union but i am putting it up for deletion, because its only going to encourage two touch rugby articles and there is no reason to have two. The information you wrote about the rules of touch rugby are in the main page of which Touch rugby redirects to. I dont understand what your saying about the rules? POds 05:31, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

This is why the original Touch football (rugby league) was created. The mis-named Touch rugby was used for touch football, then someone came along and changed it to what is currently in the touch rugby union article - this seemed to indicate that there was a different sort of touch, one played by union pepple. So is there or not? --Paul 06:04, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I've seen the wallabies play a slightly modified form in training, in the background of news clips on sports tonight. Instead of playing the ball, they slow down, drop and place the ball, much like in a ruck in rugby. I'm not sure how common this is. Anyway, such a variant would not warrent its own article, thats why i suggest making touch rugby the article for all forms of touch rugby. Much like how the rugby football article discusses rugby league and rugby union and the common rules between the two. Touch rugby should try do a similar thing. POds 16:43, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

for POds i speak about the touch rugby article(without redirect) there is a lot of HTML i see you want to transfer the touch football(rugby union) to touch rugby and i approuved it when you edit,before the 6 September you deleting no ruck no mauls and lineouts, i correct that mistake

Confused? At 14:05, 9 September 2005 Philip Baird Shearer (Revert to last coherent version). The article was wound back to 23:47, 21 August 2005 POds. It has been slightly modified since to remove the statments that the page is about a Rugby Union version of Touch Rugby because the versions of touch rugby are very similar and as the game is not fully codefied elements of both codes are mixed in together.

I think this page should remain what it is at the moment with an exlpanation that the term is used to cover various forms of non tackling Rugby from the informal training session type and the codefied versions like FIT. In other words a cross between a desctiption, a list and a disambiguation page with links to pages about FIT and other forms of the game which have a code and competitions etc. Philip Baird Shearer 14:02, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree POds 07:05, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rules 12 September

Most of the Text added today is about FIT which is already covered by Touch football (rugby league). See these web sites for other versions of the game and there are many more versions which may or may not be documented. Eg:

WWRU Rouch Rugby Challange with 12 players per team - with at least four women per team
USA Rugby - Youth Laws for 1997.
RFU For season 2002/2003: see section NON-CONTACT MINI RUGBY UNDER 8

So I do not think this page should be dominated by the FIT version as there is already a FIR page. Philip Baird Shearer 12:41, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree POds 07:12, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] touch rugby/touch football

From my talk page:

Hello, I've been asked by Goldensun(I do not play either, but my French is fluent) to help him concerning his problem with the articles above; after having had a good look at the articles and corresponding talk-pages, if I understand correctly, the difference lies in the fact that one is considered a "hobby"-sport, whereas the other is played by the rules of the FIT. Goldensun thinks that he plays the hobby sport, but still he has to abide by the rules by the FIT. Could you help me (and him) sort this out, as he doesn't understand the reverts being made Lectonar 11:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

There are a number of different versions of Touch Rugby which are played under different rules. So listing any one set of rules on the Touch Rugby other than that it is non tackling form of Rugby, will probably not be correct for another version of the game. Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Then, given this, dont you think touch football (rugby league) should be moved to a more universally accepted name, such as touch rugby (FIT). In this case, the title would represent Exactly what the content is! See Talk:Touch football (rugby league). Such a move, for me, would put this entire matter to rest!!! Then we can build a structured and easy to understand article for both the FIT game and other touch rugby games. POds 07:10, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The politics

As the sport is not fully codified the rules vary depending on who is playing it. The biggest obstacle for any one ruling body defining a set of rules which everyone could agree on are based on the traditional split between Rugby League and Rugby Union. The International Rugby Board is unlikely to recognise any Rugby body which does not recognise it as the overall governing body of the sport (No surprises there! See the history of the English RFU and FIRA - Association of European Rugby). There is also no surprise that a body like the Federation of International Touch (FIT) set up to promote a game derived from Rugby league is unlikely to recognise that the IRB is its governing body. However never say never and in the future a deal may emerge (along the lines of the IRB will reconginse FIT as the governing body of Touch for all Union competitions if FIT recognises that IRB is the overall governing body of the sport as was done with FIRA. But I suspect The Schism between league and union will have to narrow further before this happens.

Meanwile of the versions of Touch Rugby which have been codefied, it seems that the FIT version is the further down the road to being accepted as the wide spread international verson even if not all the competitions which play by its rules recognise FIT as the governing body. But because of The Schism, if any body like the RFU which does recognise the IRB (see History of rugby union), is going to promote a touch rugby game, it can do so with rules which may be similar to FIT but which can differer in some respects to suit what ever reasons they are promoting the game because for them is an appendage to Rugby Union.

This state of affairs is nothing new and most new sports go through this metamorphism, it is just that any sport which is in anyway related to Rugby is likely to have its metamorphis mixed up by "The Schism". This schism is alive an well on Wikipedia, as the the early edits on the Rugby football page and the History of rugby union testify to! --Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Name

There is no one game of Football in the world. Each region tends to shorten the name to the major version of Football played in their region. For example in Europe with the exception of Ireland, football is a short form of Association Football. In the USA the game referred to as Football is in the rest of the world known as American Football or Gridiron. In New Zealand Football is short for Rugby Football and for most of the population if they need to be more specific Football and League. Australia is more complicated and I get confused but if you want to know I am sure that an Australian will be happy to fill in the details.

The current FIT organisation can trace its roots back to 1979 when Queensland Touch was formed in the Australian state of Queensland (See History of Australian Touch). FIT has chosen not to include the word Rugby in its title ((see History of FIT). Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The page names

Originally there was only one Touch Rugby page. But as the details on FIT grew it came to dominate the page. So I split them into two. Not being an expert of League or FIT I moved it to Federation of International Touch (rugby). Grant65 who had done a lot of work on Wikipedia on the history of different types of Football, moved the page to the current name of Touch football (rugby league) arguing that "Federation of International Touch (rugby)" referred only to the governing body. On reflection I think he is correct (see the FIT website). I presume he would have preferred the name "Touch football" but it has to be disambiguation from Touch football (American)

So we now have the position where we have Touch Rugby as a sort of cross between an explanation, a list and a disambiguation. Where is there is enough information on any one form of Touch Rugby it can have its own page with links from Touch Rugby as does Touch football (rugby league). However as I said before the rules on the Touch Rugby page have to be kept very general because the rules do vary extensively between the different versions which are played. Some of the versions which are on the web are not IMHO worth documenting because they are ephemeral and only last for a short time. To give a paragraph to one competition played a decade ago would place too much emphasis on that one competition. Philip Baird Shearer 13:50, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Where is there is enough information on any one form of Touch Rugby it can have its own page with links from Touch Rugby as does Touch football (rugby league). Excuse me but you delete all the information i put in the touch rugby to put it on touch football page(for example all the translation of the rules from the french wiki). Let me laught, you delete all and say after there's nothing in this page.I wrote an e-mail to the FIT they will answer, you and me will accepted the answer they will give ok?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Goldensun (talk • contribs) 18:00, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

The reason for moving your edits was because the touch rugby page was trying to be very generic. The rules you added made the generic nature of the article disapear and thus the Rules where moved to the article about the sport governed by the FIT. 203.214.118.119 21:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Email

I post the e-mail to the FIT here Lectonar

email to the FIT Hello i'm a french player, in my country our sport is calling touch rugby. I work on wikipedia did you know that encyclopedia. We have a problem to name our sport and of course to name the article: Touch rugby, touch football (rugby league).

The principal argument of the touch football (rugby league) is the sport created in australia and in australia you call that sport touch football

You can see the discution on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Touch_rugby for touch rugby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Touch_football_%28rugby_league%29 for touch football (rugby league)

Can you help us please(sorry for my english) Quentin Goldensun 18:25, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lectonar"

[edit] External links

doesnt work
nothing to say about this
is FIT
is FIT

Just incase your trying to distance this page from FIT. It may be more useful for these links to exist on touch football (rugby league), unless you've got them there for a reason? POds 16:42, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] USA

In the United States, touch is usually played following pre-1967 Rugby League rules, Is there a source for this as this link (USA Rugby - Youth Laws for 1997) seems to be describing a different version? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:09, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge with Touch football (rugby league)

I think the best solution is to merge touch football (rugby league) in to this page. Delete touch football (rugby league) and use this page for ALL forms of touch rugby, until there are at least two very strong derivitives of touch rugby on the same page that warrent a split! - Which is not the current case! POds 04:37, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I totaly agree with you it's only a question of term the european touch rugby depends on FIT rules as already sayed you can see this map to be sure [3] Goldensun 15:42, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I am against a merger see above #The page names and Talk:Touch football (rugby league)#One page good. Two pages better--Philip Baird Shearer 15:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../t/o/u/Talk%7ETouch_rugby_7329.html"