Talk:Tsundere

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Contents 1 Neologisms? 2 Leia, Kong Deletion 3 Bah so that's it 4 Tsunderekko - Youthful person with Tsundere personality? 5 Citing Wikis 6 List? 7 Haruhi Suzumiya

[edit] Neologisms?

In my 10 years of anime fandom, I've never seen this term before. I wonder if it is really that widespread or if it is just neologism and this article AfD as such. --TheFarix (Talk) 12:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

A Google search only found 215 uses in English. Most definitely neologism. --TheFarix (Talk) 12:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this word is technically a neologism, since it is new (having come from computer games as I sort of understood from the Japanese wiki) and while this word is not so popular in English, this article is really an explanation of a Japanese word. ツンデレ turns up over 2 million hits in Google, and Akamatsu uses tsundere in the External Link (where tsundere is described as originally slang, implying that it no longer is), so I think this is sufficient to pass the Corpus Linguistics test. -- Pyo 18:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that is enough to include it in the English wiki. While the word may be in common Japanese useage, it is English useage that is at concern here. And frankly, the evidence is not there that the term is in frequent used among anime fandom, as the article suggests. If you merely wish to provide a definition for a Japanese term, the Wiktionary would probably be a better place. --TheFarix (Talk) 23:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think we agree that tsundere is in common use in japanese, but not english. I would say this means that this article does not qualify for deletion as a neologism, since it's not so much about a new english word tsundere, but the well-established concept of ツンデレ.

The next question then is whether this article qualifies for deletion as a dictionary entry (dicdef I guess it's called). Tsundere seems like an interesting enough concept that it might become a decent article someday, so I would say 'stub' rather than 'dicdef'. --Pyo 01:59, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

For the most part, I still think that this is neologism. Even though the word is used frequently by the Japanese, it still very rarely used by English speakers and this is the English Wikipedia. Still, I'm going to just tag this for {{cleanup-rewrite}}. If that doesn't happen, I will later nominate this for AfD as either neologism or dictionary definition. --TheFarix (Talk) 13:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I second that. It is a relatively new term, even for the Japanese. However the term is gaining popularity in the anime industry, fast. -no name 11:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• It's a Japanese loanword, so it won't come up in a google search as Japanese uses another alphabet. As of writing it has 45,400 hits on Google and 1.6 million hits in Japanese (ツンデレ). It is, to be fair, a foreign loanword only used in English by anime fans, as with moe, and the word itself is fairly recent to the Japanese language itself. --Jonathan Drain 01:54, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Food for thought: "tsundere" has pretty much exploded in popularity on certain parts of the Internet (AnimeSuki forums for sure, I haven't been to other forums enough lately). Even though it's only since the last month or so, people have started using it quite easily. I wonder if one can still call it neologism now. Commander Nemet 04:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Going by the definition of neologism, I'd say that'll be possible for years :) "Blogging" is still a neologism. --AlexChurchill 02:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

At the end of the day, considering the rising usage of the word, I don't see any good reason for recommending deletion of what many would consider useful information. As it spreads among message boards (and it certainly appears to be spreading), more people will be using this article seeking an explanation, and questions about its necessity will work out naturally.--Ershin 09:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I seen "tsundere" used in Newtype USA, most recently in the Sept 06 issue. -Anon, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the article should be deleted, as it was my first non-Japanese resource on the term, which I came in contact with through a MIXI group - http://mixi.jp/view_community.pl?id=919436 . I think the term will gain popularity here as well and so I hope this article will be maintained. I was disappointed with the fact that most of the Tsundere characters referenced were female, even though most of the tsundere characters on the Japanese website I listed are male. Anyway, hope the article stays and continues to be maintained! ~akizakura, October 2006

[edit] Leia, Kong Deletion

Why delete? It's been many years since I've seen a King Kong movie, but Leia seems to qualify as a tsunderekko, and I like having non-anime examples. Revert? --Pyo 04:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bah so that's it

I have been searching for this term for ages. I knew it existed but couldn't find any info on it. --Squilibob 09:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Whereas I came across it today in an anime blog, and thought "Wikipedia is usually good for Japanese terms that are making their way into English - let's go check there", and I wasn't disappointed. Incidentally, the Google hits are up to 40k already. --AlexChurchill 02:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

It's used on anime blogs a lot these days. I think the article could use a bit of adjustment.. it says the term originated with renai games, however not examples are given. Some of the anime listed, however, were based on games. I guess Mai from the Popotan game probably counts as Tsundere, but I don't have much experience of renai games. Shiroi Hane 13:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tsunderekko - Youthful person with Tsundere personality?

My japanese knowledge is near nonexistant, but doesn't the -(k)ko suffix generally indicate female gender? See Meganekko. And so far all tsunderekko uses I've seen in the anime blogging community refered to girls.--87.160.231.244 20:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I was being vague about it because I don't know what it is. I haven't actually seen tsunderekko written out in kanji anywhere, so I can't say exactly what the meaning is. --Pyo 11:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citing Wikis

As I understand the guideline, they are talking about citing within the same-language wiki, since one unsourced article is as reliable as another unsourced article. For an article like this, the japanese wiki is more authoritative than the english wiki. There is even a reference style for foreign wikis. It is true that it is still not a proper primary source, but until someone finds a better source, the reader is better off knowing where the information came from. --Pyo 16:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I've asked on the relevant talk page (here), but in this case I think it won't matter what the result is, as the Japanese article appears unsourced and the link to the Japanese article is in the article anyway. —Philip N.✉ 19:05, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List?

I think the long list is difficult to maintain, unnecessary, and will never be exhaustive. I don't think it adds much to the article (though I can understand the article linking to a category or tsundere characters). Anyone else think it should be removed? At least it will be a honey pot for the "me too" edits that are popular... 69.114.71.250 11:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Problem with a category is that subjective categories are often deleted in favour of lists. I'd ditch the list entirely myself, and replace it with an Examples section that listed 2-3 of the definitive characters, in prose with explanatory text. It would be bordered top and bottom by hidden comments saying "Do not add additional characters to this sections. It is intended to give a brief set of examples only, not function as a list of tsundere figures." to help safeguard against expansion. --tjstrf talk 11:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I am in favor of tjstrf's suggestion since I believe it would be a good direction for this article to go in. I have made the alteration on the yandere article, if in need of a reference.--(十八|talk) 03:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If no one has any objections to it, I will be making the change within the next few hours.--(十八|talk) 21:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I have done it. If anyone objects, you can discuss it here.--(十八|talk) 00:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haruhi Suzumiya

Okay, this is to discuss the recent edit conflicts related to Haruhi Suzumiya being in the list of examples. Whether it may or may not be a debate in the anime community shouldn't matter as long as Haruhi carries the traits likened to all tsunderekko; that is going from tsuntsun to deredere, which (if only the anime is used as a reference) happens in episodes 4, 9 (especially at the end of 9), and 14. Not to mention that right now Haruhi is a huge topic in the anime community, so I believe she warrents inclusion as an example in this article.--(十八) 07:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that she should be included. I've seen the anime (I haven't read the manga nor the novels, so it might be different as crilix mentioned) and Suzumiya Haruhi definately fits the definition of "tsundere". I do think the "transformation" occurs often enough and appears to be important enough to her character for it to be considered a personality trait, at least in the anime, IMHO. --AlexJohnc3 ^(talk) 01:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Tsundere and yandere fall under the category of gyappu moe, also known as gap moe. The term labels any kind of moe-inspiring personality which crosses from one extreme behaviour to another. Haruhi Suzumiya's tsuntsun to deredere transformations are so rare in the anime that they can easily be dismissed as abnormalities. Even in the novels, she rarely switches from one personality extreme to the other. Her attempts to date Kyon later in the novels are without a doubt proof that she is a girl with needs that can be considered as moé, however, her transformations can still fall in the error margin. The english anime community disagrees on the error margin; some argue only one such instance of going from tsuntsun to deredere is enough, some argue such a small number of these instances is just not enough for it to be called a tsundere personality. While Haruhi Suzumiya does display tsundere behaviour qualities on a few occasions, the occurrence of those just isn't frequent enough for them to be personality traits. The article is also in need of character representatives who express tsundere behaviour more frequently, for example Louise from Zero no Tsukaima. Haruhi Suzumiya is an anime character with strong recognition among the english anime community, and because of that she represents a hazzard to the correct usage of the term tsundere; people without prior knowledge about tsundere could easily mistake the term as a synonym for "spikey", "dismissive", or "cranky" if they were to reference it to Haruhi Suzumiya. --(crilix) 10:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)