Talk:United States Junior Chamber

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some one plz see the latest edit by an annon. Thanks. --Bhadani 16:57, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 John Wayne Gacy 1.1 Infamous versus Famous 2 What is wanted for Jaycees 3 Wikification of Presidents 4 This article needs a lot of re-work 5 Copyright violations 6 Proposal for a Jaycee WikiProject 7 Category for your user pages 8 Exhausted Rooster

[edit] John Wayne Gacy

I inserted John Wayne Gacy before realizing he had been taken out before but I'm glad now after reading the commentary that I did. It's silly to keep taking him out. There's no need to whitewash history. The category is "Famous Jaycees" not "Great and Honorable Jaycees." The reputation of the Jaycees isn't harmed by his inclusion on the list any more than the reputation of the University of Cairo is harmed by inclusion of Mohamad Atta as an alumnus. It's interesting. The purpose of Wikipedia is historical accuracy not PR. 68.48.196.45

[edit] Infamous versus Famous

While this is a fine distinction, I would characterize Mr. Gacy as infamous rather than famous. The definition of infamous is: having an exceedingly bad reputation; notorious; causing or deserving infamy; heinous: an infamous deed; legally punishable by severe measures, such as death, long imprisonment, or loss of civil rights or convicted of a crime, such as treason or felony, that carries such a punishment. This is opposed to Famous defined as: well or widely known. I think making that distinction is important and including him in a list of famous Jaycees is insulting to the achievements and the memory of the others on that list. (Lucido68 22:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC))

I think the section should be labeled "Notable" rather then "Famous". As to whether or not to include Gacy, perhaps you should review other similar and dissimilar organization's article in wikipedia and see if any former members that they would be less than proud of are listed. Remember, this is an encyclopedia, not a PR tool for the Jaycees. This article needs to list the positive and negative aspects of the organization. --rogerd 02:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC) (JCI Senator 45468)

I understand the need for fair and accurate reporting on the organization and I do think all aspects of the organization should be reflected in the article. That said, including this individual in a list of famous leaders who have accomplished great things in their leadership capacities is an insult to their accomplishments. Further, I am uncomfortable with immortalizing an evil doer in an article like this one. It would seem to me that doing so rewards Gacy for his evil deeds which arguably have absolutely nothing to do with the Jaycees. If this were an article about serial killers than fine but it isn't so I beleive the reference is inappropriate. At the very least, the lists should be seperate so that the distinctions are obvious to those reading the article.(Lucido68 04:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] What is wanted for Jaycees

At present it is a bunch of links - some to states, others chapters. Do we want Jaycee history - all I have as reference is some papers I received from the Jaycees when I joined? There used to be a site about the St. Louis Jaycees that had an extensive early history which I can't find anymore or has changed. actually the reference fixed links to Jaycees would reference much of the paper info I have.

Also the references links are off, I found some problems myself with adding links to different reference types I have not figured out why sometimes a reference will usually receive a number and in this case at present the numbers are wrong in the reference section Kidsheaven 20:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I figured it out as I did get the links and reference fixed for this page, placement of the correct tags and descriptions in the correct places for links to work and show up in the reference section. Kidsheaven 20:19, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Although I am soon to be a Jaycee Graduate (formerly referred to as an Exhausted Rooster), highlights of Jaycee activity through history, how things that are now Jaycee-esque came into existence, are in order. (Now that I just entered this, I should go and place "Exhausted Rooster" in there somehow, and anyone can feel free to move that section around if they wish). Elements could contain how the first Jaycee meeting in St. Louis was at the Mission Inn, and how that name came to be the former name of what is now the JC Family AIDS Network (JCFAN), plus JAYS, and more. 20:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC) Okay, I put in a tidbit about that, and added a section on the honors. Feel free, anyone, to modify, add, rearrange, as you'd like BE BOLD. Add your state's honor program if you have one or know of one in another state until all states' organizations are listed. Fwgoebel 22:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikification of Presidents

Every president listed has had their name wikified, but that means that the link either doesn't exist (even for Hy Giessenbier), or, for a few, are namessakes for other persons (and instead go to that article--in one case, a disambiguation page that doesn't include our past president). However, Wendell Ford (38th, 1956-1957) is very much an article (a US Senator). That article barely touched on his Jaycee involvement, so I added a little to that. In addition, at the bottom of that page, is a succession table (for every office or nomination held). With that, I added his USJC presidency. Perhaps at one time we can create stub articles about the past presidents; at the very least, they should contain such a succession table. Also, can the unknown presidents be made known? Fwgoebel 04:17, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed the wikification of the Presidents as well - not sure how to fix that issue. for instance Eric Seidel's name leads to the poker player. I will try to track down the names of the MIA Presidents on the list. I got the list from The Crew website - may try to call national for the info. Lucido68 01:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I created an Eric Seidel (Jaycee) article. As it turns out, Eric Seidel was a redirect to Erik Seidel. What I did was change that redirect to a disambiguation page. If articles are linked to Eric Seidel and they want instead to go to Erik Seidel, they'll go throught that disambiguation page, and they can update their links as necessary. The Eric Seidel (Jaycee) article allows someone else with the same name to have his own article, such as Eric Seidel (Whatever). On Eric's page, I did a succession table as well, the same as I added to the lengthy table on Wendell Ford (Senator, KY). It should be easy enough to create stub articles like this for the remainder. Fwgoebel 19:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There is already a disambiguation page for Mike Marshall; I added Mike Marshall (Jaycee) as a link. Note that links in a disambiguation page are not to be piped. Fwgoebel 19:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for primer. There are pages for all the National Presidents now. (Lucido68 05:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)).

You probably went a bit overboard there - I hope you don't mind my saying that. What you did was disambiguate every past president (by appending "(Jaycee)" after each name. Doing a disambiguate (dab) is only necessary when there's more than one person with the same (or very similar) name.
What I'd suggest would be to create a stub article about each past president (like I did for Eric Seidel), but only disambiguate if there's a duplicate name (and that would involve doing a dab for the other article, as well as creating a dab redirect page if necessary. I'd do that one president at a time, perhaps working backward through time (using what I did for Eric Seidel as a guide). Also, there would be no need to do any article at all about Wendell Ford, as the article about him already includes him being Senator, Governor, Lieutenant Governor, and more from Kentucky.
I know you put a lot into this but there's no need to revert.
What I did tonight was to remove the dab for the presidents from 1999 to present, and I created a stub article about each president. I know it's a lot of stub articles, but anyone with further information about any of these leaders, including other positions held in addition to the individual's career, can add these things.
One other thing: Look at the "pipe trick" I did with Eric Seidel: The code reads [[Eric Seidel (Jaycee)|]]. Fwgoebel 06:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC) (Senator 67012)

No offense taken. Constructive criticism is always appreciated. I tracked down the MIA Past Presidents so the list is now complete through 2007. (Lucido68 16:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] This article needs a lot of re-work

This article does not conform to usual standards and guidelines of wikipedia:

• Wikipedia is not a directory, there are too many external links. Instead there should be a link to USJC chapter locater, which has links to all of the state organizations and many local ones. Also, the external links should be at the end of the article.
  • Did the same for the JCI Senate links so we avoid the laundry list of external links. (Lucido68 19:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC))
• This article is basically a fluff piece for the Jaycees, listing none of the controversies, including but not limited to:
  • The fight over admitting women in the 80s
  • The rapidly declining membership and number of chapters
• There is too much material that is lifted directly from the USJC website, much of it is probably a copyvio
• This is an encyclopedia article, not an ad for the Jaycees.

--rogerd 00:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC) (Senator 45468)

Rogerd, stop deleting everything at will....when you become a national Jaycee historian, then go for it, but stop removing links and making decisions by yourself. There are many contributors to this piece and you have taken it over. This may be an encyclopedia, but why do you want to promote the negative aspects of the Jaycees, such as serial killers? There is no reason why that needs to be in there and stop deleting links from the bottom of this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Christerosterling (talk • contribs) 09:13, February 16, 2007 (UTC)

This article has to conform to norms of wikipedia. If "a national Jaycee historian", whatever that is, where editing here, he/she would have to conform to established standards of wikipedia. I have hardly "taken over" the article. I removed major amounts of copyrighted material on Jan 16 and have done only minor edits since. If you will check the edit history of this article, you will see that I had nothing to do with the insertion of Gacy into this article, some other editor did. His past membership in the Jaycees is a very trivial matter and I would probably agree with you that his name doesn't belong on the list of former members. Since the article is about the US Jaycees, I would think that Kofi Annan does not belong in a list of notable Jaycees since, according to his article in wikipedia, he either belonged to the Junior Chamber in another country, or if he was a member in the US, he probably was a member a short period of time since he only spent a small number of his young adult years in the US. Other people on the list

Wikipedia is not about "promoting" positive or negative aspects of anything. It is about reporting notable facts. Most of my edits were to remove copyrighted information that was lifted without permission from the USJC copyrighted website. If you want to see information "promoting" any organization, go to the web site published by that organization. If you want to read information, come here. Please read wikipedia policy on external links.

You would no more expect an article about the Jaycees to be all positive than you would expect an article about Microsoft to be all positive and not discuss some of their failures, controversies and criticism of them by others. Wikipedia would not allow the "national Microsoft historian" to completely control what goes into and what is omitted from the MS article, because it would turn into nothing but an ad for Microsoft. The same is true of the article about the United States Junior Chamber. We don't need to totally dwell on the negative issues and controversies, but to ignore them would be dishonest in wikipedia. I see you are the President of the Connecticut Jaycees, and you have your own web site, which is an excellent place to promote your organization. As a exhausted member and a Senator, I very much want the Jaycees to succeed, but I won't stand for a whitewash. --rogerd 22:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Stop deleting my state....and you aren't even a member anymore? You have no right to tell me what I can and cannot put on this page and I am listing my state whether you like it or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Christerosterling (talk • contribs) 12:56, February 26, 2007 (UTC)

Sir, please do not falsely put my signature on your posts. The reason I removed the link to the CT Jaycees is that it is not needed since there is already a link to the USJC page that links to all of the state organizations and many local ones. At one point before you came along, there were many links to state and local organizations, the consensus of the editors was that it was inappropriate. Instead, we added one link to the aforementioned USJC link page. Remember wikipedia is not a directory or a link farm. It is also not advertising. And, yes, I have the right to edit any article in wikipedia. So do you. But those edits are subject to community review, and established guidelines and policy. Whether or not I am or ever was a member of the Jaycees has nothing to do with the issue. Please read the wikipedia guidelines for external links. Respectfully - --rogerd 18:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violations

If you look at the bottom of each page on www.usjaycees.org, you will see this: "©2006 The United States Junior Chamber". It means that you can't just cut and paste to wikipedia. --rogerd 03:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC) (JCI Senator 45468)

[edit] Proposal for a Jaycee WikiProject

Given that there has been what seems like intense interest in the presence of the Jaycees on Wikipedia, I'm suggesting that we might consider creating a WikiProject for this purpose. What that would entail would be to have a project page as well as its own discussion page, and it would be on that where we would be able to determine a consenus on the content to be on the US JC article, as well as those for the Senate, and any State organization member, past national presidents, etc. A small project template would then be placed on each of these articles making note of them being a part of this Project, including "Stub-Jaycee". Plus, we could be able to create our own userboxes (for those wishing to have them on their user pages) that could include "This user is a Jaycee.", "This user is a Jaycee Graduate.", "This user is a JCI Senator.", etc. Having such a project would further unite us in an effort to make the organiztion's presence an encyclopedic one, invite others to participate, and show others what a positive impact we can make. I participate in a number of highway route article projects; feel free to visit my user page to see them for examples. Fwgoebel 06:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC) (JCI Senator 67012)

Sounds like a good plan to me. (Lucido68 15:00, 19 January 2007 (UTC)).

The recent addition of JCI Atlanta - is part going back to a possible list of local or state chapters and such again. There should be some listing made as in other subjects; see department store, it and other subjects have a main site, a list site, and the individual sites. Only part I am not so sure of is the "no original research part being possible" for Jaycees State, Region, or Chapter level. Though I know the local chapter I belong to has had many local/regional newspaper coverage that could be used as a reference. kidsheaven 00:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you're getting the idea behind the notion of a project to be created. With such, we would be able to develop a concurrence on how articles about various Jaycees' entities would be formatted - what would be included, what would not, and how - keeping in mind that this is an encyclopedia article, not an advertisement. Now I am one month short of aging out, and unfortunately I'm between jobs (so I don't know how much time I can devote right now) but hearing from at least two other persons, and I'm guessing fellow Jaycees or Jaycee Graduates/Roosters, that it can begin from this. Fwgoebel 05:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I included Atlanta as a link bc it now has a seperate Wikipedia article. As a Past LP, it has always bothered me that there was no ability to maintain the rich history of the org in some location. I took what I knew and developed the article in its current form. I think it is important to have this information up there are we are one of the oldest chapters in the country with a long history in ATL. I understnd the aversion to creating a laundry list of web links but this is a seperate article with a connection to this article and was intended to be so. Am I missing something? Lucido68 19:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

It is nothing against the Atlanta link- just what seems to be the desired way to link to the main site, time frame to add this is not as important, I just suddenly noticed it linked direct and that suggests or encourages potential of too many links that ultimately could all be listed in a one or more directories as required so the main Jaycee site does not become a list of sites again, yet gives easy access to additional interesting information linked directly to the main site. I mention Department stores as I have been working on some and it allows much more information in an organized format. kidsheaven 23:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category for your user pages

I have created the category "Wikipedians in the Junior Chamber" under the parent categories "Wikipedians by Organization" and "Junior Chamber International". To add yourself to this category, add the text [[Category:Wikipedians in the Junior Chamber]] to the bottom of your user page. I may make a user box in the future, which would automatically place that category into your user page. Said userbox is yet to be created. Fwgoebel 21:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC) JCI Senator #67012, Exhausted Rooster as of today.

Optionally, you can pipe your category entry by placing your user name after a pipe [[Category:Wikipedians in the Junior Chamber|username]] to place your user name alphabetically on the category page. If you don't, your name will appear under "U" for User:.Fwgoebel 21:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exhausted Rooster

I don't know, is there any reference on the term in the Jaycees stating anything such as mentioned Jaycee Graduate? I know since it has been voted in the early 1980's as no longer a "men's" organization that the term "Rooster" has not been favored by women who age out. At my local level I know we use the term Rooster and EDOC was a new name for Exhausted Rooster. (Exhausted Directors, Officers, Chairpersons). Mentioning the term Jaycee Graduate, I get no interest, a better term would be Jaycee Alumni. Just my view and feedback locally, I know most chapters nearby don't use roosters for events and such as my chapter does. Most popular local tradition not used elsewhere as far as I know - is when swearing in new members - Everyone repeats "I state you're name" at that point. See the movie "Animal House", it could be the source of the tradition, or may be older?Kidsheaven 02:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

The only reference I could find (through a Google search) was at JCI Australia - History of the Senate and you can see the words "Jaycee Graduate" there. That was a 1953 remark, so that makes me think that "Exhausted Rooster" was primarily a US Jaycee thing (you can still purchase a Rooster lapel pin). As for "State your name" - Not only have I had that done when I as a local president issued the oath to a new member, I and a group of state officers (when I was RD) did the same thing when we were sworn in as a group by the newly installed state president. As for "Jaycee Graduate" - The only National Convention I ever attended was Niagara Falls 1999, and they had a ceremony for new "Jaycee Graduates" - that specific term, not "Rooster", was used - as a part of that celebration. (I wish I could get out to St. Louis, as I just became a Rooster on 3/1.) I do know some women that consider themselves Roosters just the same (I can't speak for them here otherwise). For myself, though, I wish I could do a Exhausted Rooster userbox with a JCI shield in it, but I'd be worried about fair use stuff.
What I had been told once was that "Exhausted Rooster" was a play on the title given to the leader of an Elks lodge - "Exhalted Ruler". I ran that by a friend of mine who himself held that position a year ago, and amongst themselves (unofficially) an Elk in his/her first year after having served in that capacity feels like, well, an "Exhausted Rooster". Still, I don't think this qualifies that for mention in the article itself. Fwgoebel 05:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)