Talk:Vietnamese people
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a WikiProject interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage and content of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page. |
| NB: Assessment ratings and other indicators given below are used by the Project in prioritizing and managing its workload. | |
| ??? | This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's quality scale. |
| ??? | This article has not yet been assigned a rating on the Project's importance scale. |
 |
After rating the article, please provide a short summary on the article's ratings summary page to explain your ratings and/or identify the strengths and weaknesses. |
|
WikiProject Ethnic groups open tasks:
|
|
Note: This page contains material merged from the article Gin people. Please see that article's complete history here. See also Talk:Gin people. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 06:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ho Chi Minh
Sorry if you oppose me, but I do not think that Ho Chi Minh would be deserving of being put as an example of a Vietnamese person, even though genetically he was one. 211.30.138.38 13:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Why not? He's one of the most well-known Vietnamese persons around. DHN 21:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Because overseas Vietnamese get agitated staring at a communist leader. 211.30.138.38 01:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- If you can find someone to replace his pic, be my guest. DHN 09:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your understanding. I see it's removed already. :) 211.31.58.206 02:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Why someone removed my image set? Can we ban Minhtung91 for vandalising the page?
[edit] Kinh
Does anyone know the origin of the ethnonym "Kinh", and why does it appear with the character for "capital" when used in Chinese? User:Le Anh-Huy
- No idea, but you might be interested in this article about the Gin people in China from the POV of a Chinese ethnographer (translated to Vietnamese): [1]. Another article in a Vietnamese newspaper regarding the minority group: [2]. DHN 23:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Here's another "ethnography" of ethnic Vietnamese in China. There is something quite ethnocentric about this Beijing-controlled website, as Russians and Koreans are referred to by their English ethnonyms, but the Viets are just called "Jing"! http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/EthnicGroups/136919.htm Le Anh-Huy 02:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Speculated Answer: Well, I heard this and I can't quite back it up, but it means the metropolitans, Kinh/Jing though means capital can also mean metropolitan. It's meaning maybe lost throughout the years, but could reflect that the modern Vietnamese ethnic group is neither the Lac or the other ethnic groups stated in the Legend of Lac Long Quan. Rather a mixed group of "metropolitans." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)
[edit] Vietnamese emigration after the Vietnam War
Large scale emigration did not occur immediately after the Vietnam War, despite the imagery of boat people fleeing on American helicopters and aircraft carriers. It was later around 1978 onwards did Chinese-Vietnamese flee in greater numbers, when their economic interests in the south were threatened by nationalisation.
- The majority of boat people were Vietnamese, not Chinese. DHN 05:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Migration to the south after the Geneva Accords 1954
This page said that there were 2 million northern Vietnamese who migrated south after 1954. The following page, however, states that there were around 1 million people migrating from the North to the South during two years after the Geneva Accords: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)
In fact, the number are under 1 million. I have changed the information in this page accordingly.
[edit] Merge from Gin people
I don't see the purpose of having a separate article about the Gin, as if they were a different ethnic group. Hypothetically, it would be interesting to have an article about specifically about ethnic Vietnamese people in China, but we don't have anything like enough material for that yet. And anyway, "Gin" is just a different spelling of "Kinh", which is a synonym for "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Jing" is simply the Chinese pronunciation of that word. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merger
Technically, merging Gin people with Vietnamese people would be like merging African-American with Black people. So we should do the same with that article.1028 00:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- Well, no, if we make a mistake on this article, we certainly should not copy the same mistake on some other article to make up for it. More to the point, there are at least two important differences between this situation and the Black (people)-African American situation. First, the word "Gin" does not mean "Vietnamese Chinese people"; it just means "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Vietnamese Chinese would be something like 京族中国人 (Jingzu Zhongguoren—I don't know how to say it in Vietnamese). Second, there is already a well-written article about African-Americans, whereas there is not much of an article at Gin people. Furthermore, African-Americans have a culture distinct from people in African (they generally speak different languages, etc.), and I'm not sure that the Chinese Gins are that different from the Vietnamese Kinh. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think they're different enough from other Vietnamese to have their own article. Perhaps rename the Gin people page to Gin people of China? DHN 01:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- That would be fine if we had a significant article about them. I've been one of the editors of Korean Chinese. However, in fact, we have about one short paragraph to say about the Gins of China, so I don't think that warrants a separate article as it stands. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 01:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
-
[edit] Seperate section for Myths and Facts
According to legend, the first Vietnamese descended from the dragon lord Lạc Long Quân and a heavenly spirit Âu Cơ. They marrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_peopleied and had one hundred eggs, from which hatched one hundred children. Their eldest son Hùng Vương ruled as the first Vietnamese king. The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River delta and mixed with the indigenous population.
In 258 BC, An Dương Vương founded the kingdom of Âu Lạc in what is now northern Vietnam. In 208 BC, Chao Tuo (known as Triệu Đà in Vietnamese), a former Qin Dynasty general from China, allied with the leaders of the Yue peoples in modern-day Guangdong and declared himself King of Southern Yue. He defeated An Dương Vương and then combined Âu Lạc with territories in southern China and named his kingdom Nam Việt, or Southern Yue (南越). (Nam means south). Việt is cognate to yuet 越, which is the pronunciation of Yue in ancient Chinese and some modern southern Chinese dialects. The term was used for various peoples in the region south of China, including the regions of northern Vietnam.
- Do you think we should add a new section for facts and myth, althought the origins of vietnamese are shrouded in gray clouds, their language and pre-han culture does provide and in site. I notice that vietnamese language belongs in the Mon-Khmer languages, and many vietnamese customs are suprisingly simmiliar to those of other mon-khmers, such as chewing bewtel nuts and blackening teeths. Even thought the vietnames today are wholly resemble chinese, the muongs whom claim closely related to the vietnamese people resemble khmer and other mon-khmer people, do you think they are related? They share simmilarities like the tendency to be around rivers. And for the Bai Yue part, doesn't Bai Yue include hundreds of groups of people? And if the Kinh adopted an MK language, that would be kind of strange seeing as Kinhs were basically in the influence of those who spoke Sino-tibetan and most MK speakers were hill tribes? --user:leaki
-
- They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
-
-
- Thats what I mention, I basically said that its quite ludacris to say vietnamese were originally not mon-khmer, but I'm saying should we add a diffrent section on factual origins and include information on possible relations to other mon-khmer. --leaki
- That's probably a good idea, if you can find some sources on that. DHN 20:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thats what I mention, I basically said that its quite ludacris to say vietnamese were originally not mon-khmer, but I'm saying should we add a diffrent section on factual origins and include information on possible relations to other mon-khmer. --leaki
-
-
- For the last several decades, they've been using the term Viet-Muong as exclusive to the Viets and the Muong people, to the exclusion of the so-called Mon Khmer. But the linguist Maspero in 1912 and again in 1952 even suggested the Viets (and by extension, the Muongs) are not Mon-Khmer, but rather a branch of the Thai/Dai peoples, in itself a branch of the Sino-Tibetan family. Read this article:
http://www.vny2k.com/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese5.htm
-
- That article have its flaws, it stated that korean was influence by chinese but did not gain tones is wrong, evident by its hangul-based writing system, korean once had tones. As for Japanese tones, around a good 30% percent is accented. Dai is no longer considered sino-tibetan.
I agree that we should clearly split myth and historical facts. Tridungvo 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Response to Leaki
Uhh, regardless of those elements you listed that are practiced amongst Vietnamese (betel nut chewing, lacquering of teeth), they’re not exclusive to Mon-Khmer speaking people but also practiced by Tai-Kadai (among others) people.
No matter where Vietnamese is classified language-wise, that does not necessarily prove that they’re close genetically to a specific group in that language family. Language and genetics are not the same thing - and I know now you’re gonna say that the only other possibility is that Vietnamese adopted Mon-Khmer language, but that’s not what I’m saying either! In any case, even though Vietnamese is language wise Mon-Khmer, it’s also obvious that Vietnamese shares 10 percent basic vocabulary with Tai-Kadai languages and similar grammar, not to mention pre-sinitic influenced Vietnamese also used stilt houses like Tai-Kadai people, among other examples. Vietnamese are most likely a mixture of mon-khmer and tai-kadai peoples, then you have to factor in the 1,000 year Chinese annexation/domination (in which massive immigration of Chinese is ruled out by scholars, but there is proof of some immigrations of Chinese throughout [read “The Birth of Vietnam” by Keith Taylor]). Even language and mixing aside, Vietnamese people know their history and origins and know for a fact that the cradle of Vietnamese civilization is based in North Vietnam. People are affected not just by genetics but also by environment, North Vietnam is strikingly different from many other areas in Southeast Asia in climate, with its four seasons and it actually gets cold! Making a claim for possibility of relation because of language at one point is ok, but you have to factor in a billion other factors as well.
By the way, an interesting tidbit=Japanese people - being a mix of yayoi and Jomon, also practice what is often deemed as indigenous southeast asian practices: including practice of animism and dyeing teeth black. Mojojojoinhawaii 04:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] __
I must say that although the Vietnamese resemble the southern Chinese in cultural traditions, habits, and finally in their physical typology, i find the Southern Chinese often even more southeast Asian then the Vietnamese themselves in several ways. This may be some kind of far-fetched speculation, but I suspect the Vietnamese (in least in some of their gene pools) have much more "northern" origins. Perhaps the Mongols or others had some affect centuries ago? My own family is of Vietnamese origin, and many of my relatives have a very Central Asian, Japanese, and even Turkic look, and so they look a bit different from most of their other brethren, not to mention other southeast Asians. Until several years ago, I always thought nothing of this, and thought myself quite an "average" Asian-Canadian, until my late teen years when other Asians always had no idea where I was from, not to mention non-Asians. I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides, but people always think I look Mongolian, Japanese or Turkic; and finally, recently I have met other people of Vietnamese origin who look just like myself, and not like the majority or Vietnamese around me. ie. some Vietnamese guys (esp. in my family) have much more facial or body hair than most others, yet are entirely Vietnamese).
is their any historical evidence or research of Vietnamese having Altaic or otherwise "non-native" (ie. to the south China-Indochina basin) origins in their gene pool? This might have drastically affected the actual origins of the Vietnamese people. Le Anh-Huy 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
-
- In human genetics there is a term used called 'The Milkman Effect'. You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo. The same can be said of some Filipinos. Many Chinese from Macau have very obvious Portuguese traits for the same reason. 13 Sep 06.
-
-
- You obviously do not know many Southern Chinese. Not even a typical Southern Chinese resemble a typical Vietnamese, although they are from the same geographic area. They are not typologically nor morphologically alike, and could be easily distinguished. Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.
-
- Some Vietnamese customs that are more Southeast Asian than Chinese: fish sauce, betel chewing, teeth blackening, origin myths, fairy tales. The Fourth Chinese domination of Vietnam did much to Sinicize the country in 20 short years. DHN 08:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Quoted from Talk:Vietnamese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
a.) DHN responding to user:leaki, on the origin of the Vietnamese people: They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
b.) DHN responding to Le Anh-Huy's message of 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC), despite Le Anh-Huy clearly stating "I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides": ...You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo... 13 Sep 06.
c.) DHN's "scientific" claim of genetic make-up for Vietnamese of Chinese origin: Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.
Sirs,
Who is this DHN? I found his/her comments very disturbing. Bad English to start with (Cf. Quote a.) above). What rights to make such huge & offending statements on the world stage? They are far from accurate, to say the very least.
Yours sincerely, T.Vd./
- DHN is the idiot who originally wrote this article. DHN 01:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I speculate that Vietnamese are mixture of the north (chinese) with the indigenous populations through out time, leaving much of the population looking somewhere on the spectrum of looking very east asian to looking very austronesasian. After all, there were many Chinese who moved down to Vietnam during the successive dynasties, who though were 100% Han in genetics identified with Vietnam as it was their home province, it might also make sense that chinese military men, stationed south without their women, found indigenous partners, leaving people of highly mixed sino-vietnamese stock. likewise, there are other probably those that live outside the cities, where the Hans used to congregate in ancient times, having less exposure to han genes also leaving us with those who look more "indigenous." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)
[edit] Should Hoa = Chinese? Gin people and Vietnamese should be separeated!
- Yes, "Hoa" in Vietnamese language means not only the ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, but also the ethnic Chinese living in other countries, for example in the USA, in France, in Thailand, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Cambodia, etc. Although less often, but this word is also used to refer to the Chinese living in China. Tryst Nguyen
[edit] Cosmonaut, not Astronaut!
Instead of Eugene Trinh, why not have a picture of Pham Tuan? At least, he was the first Vietnamese cosmonaut, as well as the first Asian in space. Some Vietnamese Americans are so unwilling to recognize any progress that goes on "back home", preferring to only focus on personal achievements of Vietnamese-Americans who, are primarily doing the United States of America a favour, not Vietnam. Besides, Pham Tuan looks better, and will give the "ethnic photos" better exposure to Viets. Le Anh-Huy 05:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- I have no objections to using these pics, but they keep getting deleted. I originally used Ho Chi Minh, the girl, Phan Van Khai, and Tran Duc Luong, based solely on how well-known they are (plus the girl for balance). I have serious doubts as to whether Eugene Trinh is really Vietnamese. I really don't care too much whether they bring "pride" or "shame" to the people they represent. (Being chosen by the Soviets to show off how much better their socialist system are compared to the capitalist system isn't much to be proud of either) DHN 06:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- Looking happy, confident and cultured, not to mention beautiful and enviable (And no makeup, very genuine), the girl in her Ao Dai (Ow Yai), the cultural symbol of Vietnam: Most beautiful image of Vietnam.
- Astronaut or Cosmonaut?: The 1st Asian in space was a Vietnamese citizen in space (not an American citizen). T.Vd./
