Talk:Virtual band

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Virtual band has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Virtual band is a current good article nominee. If you have not contributed significantly to this article, feel free to evaluate it according to the good article criteria and then pass or fail the article as outlined on the candidates page. Nomination date: 2007-03-26

Contents 1 Musical chipmunks 2 Dr. Teeth and The Electric Mayhem 3 Japanese virtual Idoru? 4 Cartoon band? 5 The Archies = The Monkees? 6 the greasy moose 7 Binky / Arthur TV Show 8 Redefining Virtual Bands 9 Potentially a Neologism/Original research - lack of references 10 Crazy Frog is not a Virtual Band or Group

[edit] Musical chipmunks

'Chipmunks, ... and now playing their own instruments'

Somehow I doubt that ;) Morwen - Talk 08:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

You know wht I mean! They play their own instruments the same way Gorillaz or the Archies play(ed) their own instruments. --JB Adder | Talk 23:04, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

(Removed mistaken post. Tony 04:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Teeth and The Electric Mayhem

Weren't they puppets and not animated characters? Sorry if I'm being dense here... --Dvyost 23:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, they were. --JB Adder | Talk 05:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

So does that put them outside this article's purview, if the definition is "any group whose members are not flesh-and-blood musicians, but animated characters."? --Dvyost 05:27, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

At the moment, that is what is being discussed in the peer review, among other points, especially since some sources (printed, mostly) define puppetry as a form of animation, and others do not. --JB Adder | Talk 05:58, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese virtual Idoru?

The article should probably mention the Japanese virtual idoru pop stars.

Please sign off your comments! --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 03:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cartoon band?

I had only ever heard these bands referred to as "cartoon bands", so I had difficulty locating this article. I only found it by first going to the Gorillaz page. Is there any support for creating a page for "Cartoon band" which redirects to this one? DavidMann 11:53, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that when I originally created the article. I'll get to it right now. --JB Adder | Talk 03:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Archies = The Monkees?

Either this page is totally wrong, or The Archies and Sugar, Sugar are wrong. The latter pages seem pretty convincing, so I would suggest this page be editted. -- TheMightyQuill 13:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

The source in question, from which I got that information, is a television program called Dancing in the Street (I think that's the one). If anyone would like to check what is being said there, they are free to. --JB Adder | Talk 00:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but using a TV show as a source when you aren't even sure of the title doesn't seem very wise. Maybe the information should be removed?

It's not the title I'm unsure of; it's the show. There were two shows out in the 90's that talked about world popular music: Dancing in the Street and Walk On By. I remember watching both, however I can't remember which one the info came from. Can I suggest someone watch both shows and giving the reference in the article? --JB Adder | Talk 13:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the greasy moose

i felt as though the greasy moose, which is one of my favourite flash toons, deserved a mention, particularly because of the mocumentary "my penis is evil". I'd even say they take the concept of virtual band a bit further than most, as they try to develop their characters beyond a mere gimmick.

[edit] Binky / Arthur TV Show

There was a virtual group called Binky on the childrens' / PBS show Arthur

[edit] Redefining Virtual Bands

I think "cartoon band" should have a separate entry from "virtual band". While a "cartoon band" is considered "virtual", it is only one of the several type of virtual bands that are now present on TV or the Internet. Several of the bands stated here are presented in several forms other than two-dimensional illustations while being perfectly "virtual" in nature (e.g. Mistula, Bratz Rock Angels, Crazy Frog). The term "Virtual group" is also vague, as it may refer to a group who may not be musical in nature.

The terms in this article should be redefined for it to be a proper resource material.

Interestingly enough, that is one of the points that has been brought up on the cleanup page. I insist everyone who comes here have a look at it and contribute. --JB Adder | Talk 16:15, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, the article has been rewritten. Feel free to comment on it, and tell me what you think of it. --JB Adder | Talk 01:43, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Potentially a Neologism/Original research - lack of references

Disclaimer: Please go easy on me, since I'm not trying to troll; at worst, start a debate. I'm a wikipedia noobie, so I could be totally off base ;)

There are very few references cited that, as I understand it, can be construed as establishing a reliable/creditable history. The Guiness Book entry seems to be the only one out of the list, and one might argue against it's credibility in establishing history - I think it is more of an auxillary reference.

Additionally, parts of the descriptions on the page leave the concept extremely open to interpretation. Particularly in offense are the groups chosen to be cited as references, and the part about the term meaning "bands that collaborate over the Internet". What is the definition of a band? Animation? Virtual?

Should Daft Punk be counted, since they always in disguises/costumes that hide their identity? How about "The Beets" on the TV show Doug, should they be considered a band? How about Spinal Tap, are they a band? Does a virtual band have to have it's members be far-spread (members across the country/world), or can any normal band be virtual, through animation, etc (animation, etc)? Does a virtual band have to always exist in a virtual form or pretend that the virtual form is the only form, or would a dual form/occasional virtualization suffice (e.g. the Beck puppet shows)? Can a band be virtual if any one of the members is hiding their identity (e.g. the propensity for cross-dressing in Visual Kei)? Can a band be virtual if all the music performed on studio albums are created by one musician, and the remaining credited musicians only fill in during live shows (e.g. Boston, allegedly The Smashing Pumpkins, maybe NIN - not sure)?

I admit that several of my points and examples are far-fetched, and several also don't fit every one of the criteria listed at the top section of the page. However, they make a point of how flexible the definition can be if it isn't strictly defined, or if examples cited don't strictly fit (e.g. Crazy Frog, The Monkees).

Due to the lack of creditable references cited, seeming lack of factual history, and the broad definition given, the Virtual Band concept seems to fit the definition of a neologism. Much of the entry also seems to be (at least partially) original research. Is the concept of a "virtual band" just a marketing scheme for the band Gorillaz, and maybe a limited few bands before them?

At the very least, I think the article should be cleaned up to remove speculation/original research. Maybe it should instead define the concept, then cite it as a marketing scheme, possibly citing which bands have actually used it, and removing references to bands that fit the definition, but have not used the term. I would tag it, though I'm not sure how to do so, or confident in exactly which tags should be used =) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.34.241 (talk • contribs) 21:1, 1 December 2006 (UTC).

I understand your concern, and I'll answer the various questions you posed here and now:

• The definitions of 'band', 'animation' and 'virtual' are catered for in various articles: 'Band' in Musical group and Band (music) (and also in WP:MUSIC and the associated Wikiproject), 'animation' in it's own article, and 'virtual' in this article itself (although maybe not to its full extent).
• The Internet collaborations are dealt with in a stub: Internet band
• A discussion about what bands could be included in the article was started some time ago, and it was determined that, whgile some bands, such as Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem (who appeared on a television show, like 'The Beets' that you mentioned above) could be counted, the decision was made to exclude them from the article's 'Notable bands' section. However, some were completely discounted because they didn't release any known material in the real world; this criteria covers the Beets.
• When the article was originally written, it had a disambiguation section between 'virtual' and 'virtualised' bands. The definition for this given in the article was 'any flesh-and-blood band who appeared as animated characters in video clips' (although this definition is not strictly correct). 'Virtualised bands' was a neologism created by me, used to serve as a means of differentiating the real-life bands (like The Dissociatives and Daft Punk, as you mentioned above) from the bands that were purely animated creations (like those given in the article). So, in a short answer, no, Daft Punk are not virtual, and no normal band can be virtual under any circumstance. (However, as a side note, your posing that question does bring up a very good question: are deceased musicians considered virtual if material is released under their name posthumously?) Additionally, the band's virtual form must their only form.
• Finally, 'Virtual band' is not a neologism. Like many others, I came across the term when Gorillaz were introduced (and, indeed, the Wikipedia article, which was created before this one, used the same term). It was first spoken on radio station Triple J, then the media subsequently snatched it up. Prior to this, the Bots (or, more strictly, the Bot Brothers) used the term to describe the band as well. However, to say that it is a marketing ploy is complete folly: the term may be a recent creation, but the process is not in relation, as the article proves.

I hope this answers your questions. Thank you for asking them. You brought up some very good points. --JB Adder | Talk 12:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crazy Frog is not a Virtual Band or Group

A virtual band... is any group whose members... etc

Crazy Frog, being only one character, and having no other "virtual band" members clearly doesn't fit into the classification or description of a virtual band. The people behind the Crazy Frog music (Bass Bumpers) are a duo/group but they're real, not virtual, so that still doesn't make the Crazy Frog a group. 172.142.62.222 20:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I can see the point you're trying to make, but I feel I must ask a couple of questions:

1. Crazy Frog is not the only character that is portrayed in the clips, and, moreover, some DJs are referred to as bands, despite their singularity. So does Crazy Frog qualify as a band now?
2. Because Damon Albarn and Dan the Automator are real-life artists, does that mean Gorillaz are not a virtual band?

I don't mean to war with you, but it does seem that the point you're trying to make has a weak base. --JB Adder | Talk 23:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Slightly patronizing reply, "the point you're trying to make"? No, I managed to make my point successfully, thanks. You might not agree with my point though, which is fine.

Gorillaz are indeed a virtual band because there are 4 animated characters, it makes sense including them in this article. Crazy Frog is not a virtual band because he is only 1 animated character. The amount of CGI characters in Crazy Frog's videos is irrelevant, that's like calling Justin Timberlake a group because he has dancers/backing singers/extras in his videos.

If a DJ has ever been referred to as a band then that would also be an incorrect use of the term "band". I've known instances where that's happened and it's usually because a DJ doesn't appear in promos, so some people wrongly assume there is more than one person involved. Doesn't make it right though, especially to carry that misconception into a Wikipedia article. 172.207.129.45 04:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

...And I do it again! Thank you for picking that up, and yes, you have made your point very clear now.

I admit, it is an inaccuracy to include a single virtual artist as a band, as you said (twice!), because, in full accuracy, he isn't a band as such. However, having said that, I will still keep him in the Notable bands section, for one very good (at least in my opinion) reason: if a Virtual artist/musician/singer etc article is created, it may automatically end up being wiped and redirected to this article, because of the synonymity that exists between the terms. --JB Adder | Talk 05:30, 24 December 2006 (UTC)