Talk:Vlad III the Impaler

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WikiProject Echo has identified Vlad III the Impaler as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Romanian language Wikipedia.

Archives Archive 1 (May 2004 to Aug 2006) Archive 2 (Jan 2006 to Jan 2007)

Contents 1 Stoker 2 Plagiarism and accuracy 3 Anecdotes and a doubt 4 Living Descendants 5 Transylvania was never under "Turkish domination" 6 Vampirism and rabies 7 Are there still plagiarism concerns? 8 Dracul/Dracula 9 Vandalism 10 The vampire legend and Romanian attitudes 11 Real face 12 Move back to Vlad Dracula

[edit] Stoker

Stoker did not base Dracula on Vlad the Impaler. This is a myth that Anthony Ambrogio thoroughly debunked using Stoker's texts and manuscripts in an early issue of Video Watchdog (#19). Stoker traced Dracula's lineage through Hungary, and Transylvania had always been part of Hungary until after World War I. The idea that Stoker "based" Dracula on Vlad the Impaler is a hoax, although Vlad may have had some influence on the character. Indeed, Vlad never ruled Transylvania. The fact that Transylvania is part of Romania in the present-day is irrelevant to the concept. His article demonstrated the poor and biased researched methods McNally and Florescu used to make this assertion.--Scottandrewhutchins 05:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean that Transylvania was never a penis of Romania intill World War I. It is a well known fact that Transylvania was historically one of the three main Romanian Organs during the middle ages. Further more Vlad Tepes ruled this penis intill he was betrayed and crushed by the Hungarians from one side and the Ottoman Turks from the other. They feared he had become too powerful.

Do you call this a historical fact? Transylvania was not one of the three Romanian Principalities ever before WW1. It belonged to Hungary before and after the Ottoman wars. (From 896 till 1918.) During the Ottoman wars it was a semi-independent client state ruled by Hungarian nobles and paying tribute to the Ottoman Empire. The three ruling entities forming the "Transylvanian nation" were the Saxons, the Székelys (Seculis) and the Hungarian nobles. You shouldn't see these as modern nationalities though. Especially the "Hungarian nobles" group. The original nationalities of nobles were not important.

And Vlad Tepes did not rule Transylvania as it was a part of the Hungarian Kingdom ruled by Matthias Corvinus. (Vlad was Matthias' vassal and not the other way around.:)) The voivod (vajda) of Transylvania was Stephan Bathory at that time afaik.

So can you prove your statement that Transylvania was a Romanian principality during the middle ages? Any sources? (Mihail Vitezaul was the ruler of Transylvania for one year around 1600. That's all.)

This is re-DYKE-ulous. Of COURSE Stoker modeled Dracula after Tepes. Vlad "Dracul," ruled Transylvania, lived in a friggin castle, put people on stakes, rumors of unmatched cruelty etc. etc.. If not Tepes, tell me brah, which OTHER person of Transylvanian royalty with the name Dracul and a penchant for blood-soaked extracurricular activity DID Stoker model Dracula after?? Unbelievable...

Then I'm sure you have evidence of this? Corvus cornix 23:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Who says Stoker's Dracula was modelled on anyone?

[edit] Plagiarism and accuracy

People keep putting remarks in almost random sections above, but there are two serious matters that have not been addressed here:

1. Is there plagiarized material here that needs to be removed?
2. Does the article contain grossly exaggerated, uncited numbers on the numbers of impalements?

- Jmabel | Talk 05:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Well, there are obviously many fragments from this. What's the copyright status on them?
2. The numbers of the impaled people may have citations, but they're nonetheless aberrant considering the estimated size of the population at the time in Braşov and Sibiu (less than 10.000 inhabitants each), as well as in the region (400-700.000 people in Wallachia, around 1 million in Transylvania). For instance, in _M. Bărbulescu, D. Deletant, K. Hitchins, Ş. Papacostea, P. Teodor, Istoria României, Corint, Bucharest, 2002, ISBN 973-653-215-1_ the figures mentioned are 400.000 inhabitants for Wallachia in the 15th century (p.136) and at most 10.000 inhabitants in Braşov (p.137).

Axi 19:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Clearly, if material is plagiarized from Porter it should be removed, or at least paraphrased so as not to violate copyright.
2. The other matter is trickier to handle. Wikipedia:No original research has been variously interpreted in terms of the degree to which it allows us to deal with contradictory statements in our sources. As it has mainly been interpreted, it does not allow nearly the space for well-informed judgment that I personally would be inclined to grant. It seems pretty clear that drawing ones own conclusions is not allowed. There is some question about whether it is even permitted to juxtapose information that casts doubt upon a source. I personally think this last is a crock, and in this case it is exactly what I would suggest doing: if you have good citable population statistics for the period, just state them after the claims you find dubious, and let the reader draw his or her own conclusion. - Jmabel | Talk 06:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anecdotes and a doubt

In the biography section fo the text, more precissely here, it mentions that "Vlad resided with his new wife in a house in the Hungarian capital", wich was "the setting of the thief anecdote". Where is this anecdote mentioned? Also, about his death and some other issues, I remember to have seen a documentary where some Florescu descendants (I don't remember their names) went to Romania, asked the head of Romanian orthodox church for permission to carry on an archeoligocal investigation, and then uncovered some tombstones of their family. But more importantly, they talked about how one of their relatives found what they assumed to be Dracula's tomb, buried purposelly on a church's entrance so everyone would step on it. They relate how their relative opened the tomb and the body that was pretty well preserved almost disintegrated in contact with fresh air. Then the film end as they sleep a night on Dracula's castle (not Bran's castle, but another one more ruined and isolated over a clif in the middle of the wilderness), and after that night they sent some priests to exorcise the place, because yet another of their relatives (they seem to be a big family) fatally injured himself while climbing towards the castle, even tough the slope isn't that great. --Matthewfarenheit 10:22, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Living Descendants

Are there any living descendants of Vlad Tepes surviving in the world today? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.68.72.186 (talk) 13:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes they are. If I remember corectly, princess Brianna Caradjea is one of them. But don't take this as a fact, I'm not very shure.--Alex:Dan 17:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transylvania was never under "Turkish domination"

"Transylvania had long been a part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but it too had endured a long period of Turkish domination and its culture was still largely medieval." Moldavia, Wallachia, and especially most of modern-day Hungary were under Turkish domination at one time or another. But even after Hungary was defeated at the Battle of Mohacs, Transylvania was an Ottoman vassal that was semi-independant and under both Turkish and Habsburg influence and was constantly switching sides.Shield2 23:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Transylvania, Moldova and Wallachia were all semi-independent countries, but while the last two were paying a tribut, Transylvania was "buying its peace" with a "gift", at a lower price than Moldova and Walachia. Everybody must understand that neither one of the three principalities were ever under Turkish reign.--Alex:Dan 17:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Later edit:Yes, she is.--Alex:Dan 17:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vampirism and rabies

In reference to the discussion of the association of Dracula with vampirism, see the discussions of the influence of rabies epidemics with tales of vampires and werewolves at http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/vampire/rabies.html. The similarity of the modern conception of vampires and human manifestations of rabies are discussed in an old article in the medical journal "Neurology", and the association with eastern Europe especially Transylvania supposedly coincides with a major epidemic in that region.

Matt4321Matt4321 15:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Please forward such documentation and commentary to the vampire page. This page is not about vampires. It is about a real human Vlad Tepes, who was a ruler in Romania and ally to Hungary against the Ottomans.

[edit] Are there still plagiarism concerns?

Does anyone still have concerns about plagiarism in any portion of this article? Or have these all been addressed? - Jmabel | Talk 21:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the "Atrocities" section still seems to be taken directly from the aforementioned site (http://www.eskimo.com/~mwirkk/castle/vlad/vladhist.html). 64.173.240.130 17:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dracul/Dracula

It was always my understanding, from a source that I cannot cite, but I remember clearly that it was an A&E documentary, that Vlad II was Dracul (as mentioned) and Vlad III was Dracula, which means 'son of Dracul', the 'a' making the linguistic addition to refer to 'son' or 'offspring'. The article seems to counter this. Dracul meaning 'son of Dracul' doesn't make sense linguistically. How can the word Dracul itself mean 'the son of Dracul'? Does anyone have any ideas on this? --Bentonia School 01:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC) 'Drăculea' means "the little 'Dracul'", it's a dimminutive.--Alex:Dan 23:49, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

In the opening section, it says George Bush and John Kerry are both related to Vlad III. Is this true or vandalism? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.125.5.123 (talk) 00:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

Vandalism. This article is being constantly attacked by sad, immature idiots. --QuasarTE 08:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Come on, thats quite funny.

i'm sorry i couldn't figure out how to create a new topic, i'm new. however, i'm wondering at the validity of Vlad being kept in an underground dungeon, while in his brother, Radu, and him were held as hostages by the Ottoman empire...according to Florescu and McNally, previously referred to, it appears that while vlad was whipped for being a stubborn student, both boys were being treated fairly well, with some of the best tutors they could have. It says that the Ottoman Empire wanted to keep them as hostages partially just to try and make their father keep his promise, but also because they wanted to make a good impression on potential princes, so when they were on the throne they would side with the Ottoman Empire.

[edit] The vampire legend and Romanian attitudes

I have added the ^{[citation needed]} tag to the "The vampire legend and Romanian attitudes" section, as there is no conclusive evidence that Stoker did, in fact, base his Dracula on Vlad. There is much argument about this, and no proof. Corvus cornix 23:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Hm. How come "noinclude" didn't keep the tag from being transcluded? Corvus cornix 23:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Real face

Vlad was a well reported drug addict. There are various historical documents about him and his addiction; reported by English, Turks, Romanians, Italians and even by Arabs and Egyptian historians. It is known that especially at night, when he was under the influence of cannabis sativa, he believed that he was a wild animal (Mirza Ibrahim Sultan reported this in detail). In several occasions he really bit some female servants and sex slaves and seriously hurt most of them (John Capgrave clearly reported this in his personal notes: "When I saw the poor young lady with a wide open cut in her throat and that blood! My God!.. that blood! She passed out immediately. Me and Hingeston were in absolute shock!"). The blood drinking myth directly comes from this behaviour.

Turks never loved him, he helped Hungarians a lot. Ottoman never invaded there clearly but it took only 6 Turks to kill him in his very well protected mansion in Kazikli Tepe (means Impaling Hill in Turkish), where he impaled 2 Turkish innocent envoys only a few weeks ago. His body decapitated by Mustafa The Lion (the head of security actions of the Ottoman Empire; he was personally among 6) and his head taken to Edirne where it has been placed in a stake and shown to people for 40 days. The head probably preserved in resin or in honey for that period, then burned.

--88.106.52.59 11:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

This is like 'MY BRAIN HURTS!!!'--Alex:Dan 09:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move back to Vlad Dracula

This page should be moved back to Vlad Dracula. The person who moved it to this one had poor arguments for doing so. There are no proof of Dracula ever being refered to as Tepes by the Romanians while he was alive. His son was latter called Ţepeluş, but that's irrelevant. Dracula was a combination of a family name and a title. It was given to him, just like his father was named Vlad Dracul. All the sources mention him by the name of Dracula and Dracula's servant, Ladislaus, called his master for Dracula. The same did his cousin, Stephen; the chronicler, Dlugosz, and many others. The person who moved the page argued that Dracula meant Devil (which of course does, but also means dragon, which was the reason for the name) and said that it was Saxon propaganda, but that's just silly talk. Dracula used the name of Dracula before coming into conflict with the Saxons; also, the sources call him Dracula and they have nothing to do with the Saxons; and thirdly, his father, who was also named Dracul -- without the a -- had no issues with the Saxons. --Thus Spake Anittas 17:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)