Talk:War of Currents

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This article is appallingly biased. It does the usual Teslaphile nonsense of attributing the entire development of the AC power system to one man. The reality is that functioning commerical AC power systems existed before Tesla even arrived in the US, never mind starting work there as an electrical engineer. Tesla's main practical contribution was an efficient AC motor. Securiger 13:30, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You may have a point, in which case I suggest you edit the article accordingly. My own understanding was that the AC system was mostly the work of Westinghouse. However what is undeniable is that the AC system is technically superior in almost every respect to the DC system, so the overall slant of the article is correct. There is no debate these days over which is superior, so if by "bias" you mean not giving the DC system a fair hearing, I don't think there's an engineering case there that can be made. Graham 23:21, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No, I'm not criticising AC (although there are a few areas where DC is preferred - see HVDC - AC certainly is superior in general). It's all the Teslaphile stuff. The reason I lost my cool and had a little rant here rather than just editing, is that it seems to be spreading to nearly every article about AC (in fact I got here immediately after cleaning up another article in the same vein). And that's before you even get to the main [[Category:Nikola Tesla]] articles, like Nikola Tesla itself - protected due to Balkan ethnicity edit wars, so there's no chance to clean up the claims about inventing radar, X-rays, death rays, computers, free universal power and so on. Securiger 00:01, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Clean up the claims about inventing radar, X-rays, death rays, computers, free universal power and so on? No need to ... but I'll surely verify contributions to those topics. JDR 05:49, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC) (PS, I'd review most of his patents before you do so)

The Tesla article series (the stuff in the category) was originally text from a Tesla fan site, so it's not surprising it'll be biased ... hacking with references will do wonders for it, I think ;-) - David Gerard 00:16, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Tesla article series was not originally text from a Tesla fan site (having wrote the majority of the series).

How is it "biased"? This article [originally] was based off of edison's and Telsa's articles.

I look forward to the "hacking with references".

JDR

JDR, I have a busy week coming up, so I'll have to get back to you. However briefly:

• Claims about inventing radar, X-rays, death rays, computers and free universal power require cleaning up because they are at best gross exaggerations and frequently nonsense. No, I haven't read all 700 or so of Tesla's patents, and I have no intention of doing so. But I have read several of the ones that Teslaphiles allege to support various claims. In each instance where I have so far checked in detail I have found the claims to be flatly wrong, and the claimant simply doesn't understand the paper. For example, US patent 645576 is often claimed to be the proof that Tesla invented radio communication prior to Marconi, and was accepted as such by US courts to invalidate Marconi's patents. I have read this patent in detail, and the claims about it are clearly untrue. It doesn't even discuss electromagnetic waves, never mind radio communication. If the court was not deliberately dishonest (which is widely believed to be the case), then they were confused by the difference between electromagnetic waves and plasma currents.
• You ask How is it "biased"? This article [originally] was based off of edison's and Telsa's articles. You are joking, right? The Tesla article is one of the worst examples! It was recently protected due to edit wars over disputed facts! In it's talk page, there are no less than six seperate sections disputing the factuality of the article (that is, the technical factuality; there is even more dispute about biographic details), including a long section I added. Plus, it makes extensive use of weasel words like "may have", "suggests", and "reportedly" to pump up Tesla while avoiding outright lies about unsupportable or excessively exaggerated claims. Ah, I have just noticed you replied to my dispute on that Talk page; I missed it in the Balkan edit wars, and will look at it tomorrow. However, I can see this is going to be a long hard slog; we are not going to agree quickly, so I have added a disputed tag to the page. Securiger 05:18, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 AC vs. DC 2 I wish 3 Edison 4 First Transmission between Cities? 5 why would one show more loss than the other 6 Bias 7 Energy treatise of transmission line theory 8 NPOV Removal? 9 Etymology 10 Irony?

[edit] AC vs. DC

Someone (User:cataclysm) recently took it upon himself to change the section where the basic advantage of AC over DC is discussed. Yes, AC is slightly more efficient than DC due to the effect mentioned, and high frequencies better than low - but this is NOT the principal reason why AC is used instead of DC. The overwhelming advantage of AC is that it can be transformed to a high voltage and high voltage/low current distribution will only suffer relatively minor power losses due to line resistance. Besides, this explantion can be understood easily by the layman (remember, our dear readers?) whereas the electron behaviour that transfers the charge is a far more esoteric effect (and wrongly given, in this context). Graham 06:29, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I thought that the discussion of Ohm's law didn't do much for AC vs. DC, as it applies equally to both. Maybe this could be moved. These days, DC-DC inverters can easily change the voltage of a DC supply (and are small enough to fit in laptop displays) - I guess this is a bit out of context as DC-DC inverters weren't available at the time. I kinda hoped my explanation was accessible, but obviously not (I guess that's what you get for hanging around with engineers). I would say that the transmission loss in DC vs. AC is a more significant problem than voltage conversion as far as infrastructure goes... could you imagine a power station every block, with a fuel supply etc.? On a personal note I think "took it upon himself" and "wrongly given, in this context" is a bit harsh. Yours, Cataclysm 06:44, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Apologies for the personal remarks, on reflection they probably are a bit harsh. I wasn't contesting that what you wrote was factually correct, just whether it was appropriate in this context. The high voltage/low current does apply equally to AC and DC of course, but it was the simple ability to transform AC to a high voltage using a transformer that allowed power distribution over any worthwhile distance at the end of the 19th century, and so was instrumental in its rapid adoption worldwide. This was an era long before DC-DC converters were conceived of, as you rightly point out. Also, a DC-DC converter does not easily approach the efficiency of a simple transformer, which can easily be 98%+, so even if we were starting now with inventing a power distribution system, AC would still be chosen, but not for the reason you put forward. For the record I thought your explantion was accessible enough - just irrelevant in the context of the "war of currents", at which time I doubt this physical difference was even known. Perhaps your contribution would find a better home at alternating current? Graham 12:14, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In central business districts, DC was used very successfully for many years. A 120 or 120/240 volt network was installed below street level with a network vault outside major buildings. Heavy fused leads carried the current into the building to the building panel, and circuits from there went to all the floors to operate lights, the elevator, fans, pumps, toasters, vacuum cleaners, radios, and all manner of office equipment. A 10 story building might be thus served by 120/240 volt DC risers. A massive central battery maintained the current if the generators all failed simultaneously. Rotary converters were used to convert DC to AC or AC to DC or AC of 60 Hz to AC of lower frequency for railroads. Customers loved the continuity of the power, which remained on through power storms and failures of a transmission cable, since the transmission was redundant and the distribution had battery backup. Eventually, by the 1930's engineers at GE and Westinghouse developed Network Protector switches and relays which allowed the replacement of the DC network by a low voltage senondary AC network, at 120 volts per phase or 208 volts between phases. The protector closed automatically when the transformer was energized on the high side and the phase relationship was correct for power to lflow to the secondary low voltage grid. Continuity of power to the customer was achieved by the fact that four or more 12kv AC lines could be used to power several transformers each at various spots around the grid, which could be many blocks by many blocks. Such a grid might go for decades without even a momentary interruption, unlike normal AC service where a line can be interrupted by lightning or tree contact, or an underground line by cable failure. The grid would continue to be supplied by the remaining lines, and the network protector would open automatically to isolate the faulted primary. Secondary faults would literally burn clear, with 50,000 amps or so of available fault current. When the changeover from DC grid to AC grid was made, the customer did not notice any change for the most part. Universal motors worked on AC as well as DC, and mercury rectifiers were supplied to power big DC motors. With AC available, building transformer vaults were added as well as spot networks on various floors of high rises. This part of the history should be added to the article, I think, with suitable references. Most of the Wikipedia articles give the impression that DC distribution was abandoned by the end of the 19th century, which was certainly not the case for central business districts of many large cities around the world. Edison 21:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I wish

I wish the article title was War of the currents - would seem to be better English. --Wtshymanski 20:42, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edison

Interesting article, It is funny how most modern power transmission text books always site the fact that DC is indeed more efficent over long distances. Funny how we go around in circles........

[edit] First Transmission between Cities?

This article states that the first transmission of electric power between cities was from Niagara Falls to Buffalo in 1896, but that is incorrect. Power was transmitted from an AC power plant in Oregon City to Portland, Oregon, in 1889.

Nope, 1891, in Germany - I'll look up the reference. --17:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why would one show more loss than the other

If one was to send say 115V DC to all households (or somewhere close to the RMS value of 230V AC), as long as the power transferred/dropped across the conductor is the same, how would it matter? Finally when we use household appliances too, what we are driving current into is the open circuit resistance of the device.... So if devices can work at lower voltages nothing like it. And one steps up DC,one anyway has to use some charge storing mechanism like a capacitor so am not very clear why "current" would be an issue eitherways. The effect should be same for AC and DC, and obviously, lower voltage will always be better, be it AC or DC.

dude.. AC can be transformed !!! with little to no power loss..

Which other method have you ever tried "dude"? Or is 1+1 = 0 until my book says it is 2?

[edit] Bias

I know the discussion over this article has died down but after stumbling upon it, I felt compelled to comment. This article does seem to be excessively favoring Tesla, (e.g. a section is called Edison's Propaganda). I would like for this article to perhaps be examined by electrical experts because there seems to be no other way to untangle and remove the issue of bias without affecting the article.--Jonthecheet 02:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The bias is only legitimate. If Edison had his way, he would've had AC banned. --Amit 08:05, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Tesla was not closely involved in the electrification of Niagara Falls. He sold Westinghouse his patent and had a Chief Engineer title, but spent his time experimenting with high voltage , high frequency effects in his New York lab. Westinghouse was producing AC at around 130 hz when Tesla sold him the motor patent, and Tesla could not get his motors to work satisfactorily at that frequency. But to his followers, he is the only person to ever touch AC. Edison 21:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"Empires of Light" says Tesla never visited Niagara Falls until 1896, a year after everything was installed. --Wtshymanski 17:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Who owns Tesla's patents today? GE?

The patents have all lapsed. They are a century old.

Westinghouse owned them. Edison 21:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is biased to those who favour Edison over Tesla and I would imagine the same bias exists from the Edison angle. It will never go away as the AC vs.DC debate is a microcosm of the Tesla vs. Edison debate. There is a jealousy between both camps. Arguments can be made for both currents when different factors are considered but the above dribble is no more than a Pete Rose vs. Ty Cobb debate. There is no doubt that AC existed before Tesla even hit America, however, he revolutionized it by catapulting it into what it is today, and for that, it will always be tagged to his name due to assimilation. So, to put into laymans terms for all you EEs who chose to use Wikipedia as a forum to vent, the fridge, like AC, was a good idea, but not until the first beer was pulled out. I suggest you put your textbooks away and make your fridges a great invention. Relax!!! This is Wikipedia!

[edit] Energy treatise of transmission line theory

Is there any energy domain treatise of transmission line theory? I remember there were few out there.

Edison would have had AC banned I believe. But it is ironic that he had to fight against the gas companies, during the early years, to get electricity up and running.

It is also ironic that all "useable" equipment is DC, wonder if "gas" was indeed better than sitting and computing power factors and impedence losses!

Any chances of adding 2 capacitors in series and tapping the load across each "half" to step down the voltage? Seems to work like the fridge for me ;o)

[edit] NPOV Removal?

Could someone list the specific points in a bullet list or numbered list so some resolution can be done about the npov tag? Otherwise it should be removed. 204.56.7.1 18:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Who named it "War of Currents"? Being capitalized I presume it has been labelled as a proper name by someone, which means it should have a reference and be explained. If a wikipedian made it up then renaming should be discussed. Cburnett 05:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irony?

Is it just me or is this a bit odd sounding: in an article about the War of Currents the second line is “Several undercurrents lay beneath this rivalry.” Could we change that? Maybe? --Dolphinn 21:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)