Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles/Layouts

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This page is for discussing the proposed layouts page. For the main discussion page see Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles.

Contents 1 Overview heading 2 Data box 3 Spelling Error 4 Car classifications 5 Custom Element 6 Sedan disambiguation 7 "The Automobile series" 8 Sentence case 9 Spaces in units of measure 10 Style for number ranges 11 Blue boxes 12 Infobox Automobile 13 Concept Model Infoboxes 14 {{Infobox Automobile engine}}

[edit] Overview heading

It's unclear to me for what the "Overview" heading is. I suggest deleting it and promoting the succeeding three headings up one level. —Vespristiano 03:11, 2004 Mar 7 (UTC)

Yeah that's valid. We need an article with a lot more information than this one to really play with the layouts. What do you think of the box at the side? I know a lot of the articles within series (e.g. planes, ships) have boxes like this, so it would be good to have one for cars but I think it can be improved a lot. akaDruid 13:45, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I do like the box at the side. —Vespristiano 01:49, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

[edit] Data box

I really like the data box (cars are perfect for this format) and it would be a good place to include vital stats like max HP & torque, 0-60 (might be controversial, considering testing procedures), wheelbase, final drive, etc. but there are so many variables in a car it could easily turn into information overload. However, as a car enthusiast I think most of this data is rather important, and I would like to find a way to include it.

We might be able to move power figures (and possibly reduce data duplication) to a different page by making a seperate page for every engine that is used in more than 1 car (i.e. BMW's e32 740i and e34 540i both use an identical M60 engine). Gearboxes are also resued fairly often. We first need to figure out how much info to provide. I don't know how many people would care about this stuff, but I do, and the data is often hard to find. PlatinumX 10:09, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

First up, welcome aboard! Second, you are are right, there is a whole load more data to go on the table. I would say that performance figures, dimensions and sales area are all relevant enough to be included. I'm going to update the example to show more stuff as I think of it, please do feel add/remove/change anything you want, so we can see your ideas. akaDruid 15:06, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've added some more to the table, and changed the example to use the VW Golf. We need to decide on a colour for the heading, as each of the article series has different colours, and also I think it would be good to have a boilderplate text for each manufacturer at the bottom. I'll work on this idea. akaDruid 16:57, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Infobox has more about the tables... I propose dark green (kinda british racing green?) for automobiles. any ideas?

Thank you for the warm welcome! You've done an excellent job with the table - I added a few margins and called it done. Dark green works for me - I never thought about a "universal color" for cars and probably couldn't think of another that would be better.

I just realized that there could be some confusion caused by the change in lengths and weights between the VW mk.1 and mk.2 for instance. We could use data from the most recent model (and make it clear that's what we mean), or we could average out or approximate the differences in the chassis (probably not a good idea). We could even make pages for ever generation of a car and move the data there, but that might be overkill or unencyclopedic, although I would have no problem with it.

I have also changed Kerb to Curb - if you object perhaps we can find a region neutral word, which might also help people who do not know what curb weight is. Unladen weight?

I have no real objections to Curb, I hadn't thought about multiple spellings. We'll go with green for the colour, and I'll update the Wikipedia:Infobox page with the choice. There's a page for custom messages somewhere too, I'll find a link for that in a bit, cos we should put new msgs like the VW on that. I have no issues with pages for each mark of the vehicle, but I think we should hold off making them until they are needed. For example, if the page gets too large too complex, then it is time to make a distinction. For normal use, I would say that all values we have info for can be entered, e.g. 1000kg (Mk.1) 1220kg (Mk.2) etc. I'll add some example to the layout page in case that doesn't make sense. akaDruid 15:42, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable - it turns out I have already made a series page BMW E34 and its already getting huge. We may even need to break it down even more, like [BMW E34 540i], [BMW E39 540i], etc. but I would kind of like to avoid this as it will create about a billion car pages. Its best to think about how the readers will be using this information. Some will just want general information and a short history of a series, which we can provied i.e. BMW 5-Series. Then, some enthusiasts may want more technical information, which they can find in the model specific areas, i.e BMW E34. Someone looking to buy a specific model of car may even be able to find details on avaliable options, potential problems, and other cars to consider on a model specific, year specific page i.e BMW E34 540i. All said, we really should be working from the top down. I'll stop jumping ahead to write about my car :) for the higher model and series tables, your listing solutions looks good. PlatinumX 00:55, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Creating pages for one model doesn't force anyone to do the same for every model, so go where your imagination takes you. As long as subpages covering the individual sub-models are needed, and properly linked from the main model page, then there is no reason not to have them. For some vehicles, there will never be enough information to have detailed sub-pages, but for others, there is just too much to fit on a single page. akaDruid 13:28, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I've just been checking out the 5-series articles, they are looking pretty sweet already. Just a note of caution - we're gonna kick ourselves if we start pasting infoboxes in everywhere and then want to change something, and end up with 500 pages to update! It's probably best to keep the infoboxes to a couple of pages first so we can try them out, and work out what we've forgotten. Then we'll list the infobox on Wikipedia:Infobox and start putting it into the bulk of the other articles. akaDruid 13:37, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Plus I forgot to say, if you've got a 5-series, could you upload a picture of it? It would be good to have one on the article. akaDruid 13:42, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Also, what units for length, HP (kw?) should we use? We could put both, or use metric for European autos and imperial for American cars, or just stick to SI units (hard for us Americans - we are getting a feel for the distance, but noone has heard of a kilowatt except for on thier utility bill). PlatinumX 21:54, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think we could useboth measurements where applicable, e.g. 180hp(30kw) or 1100mm(6'3")? That way it's clear to everyone. Don't worry if you don't know what the conversion is or anything, just enter what you do know, e.g. 180hp(??kw), cos people seem to love fixing little things like that. I do it myself quite often. That's what I find to be the beauty of the system, how the articles grow and improve. akaDruid 15:42, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Also, In making pages for engines, what nameing convention should we use? [BMW M54 engine], [BMW M54 (engine)], [BMW M54] or somthing else? -- PlatinumX 04:17, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Not sure really. There is a naming conventions page, or maybe we should ask on the village pump? Has anyone made any pages on specific engines yet? I would be tempted to use [BMW M54] until we run into any conflicts, then use [BMW M54 (engine)] where appropriate. Run with that for now if you wanted to get started. Unless your conscience bothers you :) akaDruid 15:42, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Have we come to any consensus on the data box layout yet? I've added the standard layout to the Ford Mondeo page and I'm keen to put it on some of my other pet pages? An example layout for engines (specifc or series) would be great if anyone has time to do it? I've created stubs for Duratec and Duratorq but not sure where to take them yet. Cheers! --Pete Richardson 12:49, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Update: I've gone ahead and fitted the Duratec page with an example layout, what do you guys think? --Pete Richardson 15:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nice, I like it. Maybe add it to the /Layouts page so people can copy it from there? akaDruid 11:05, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry I've been absent from this space. (I didn't know I had to set my Wikipedia account to watch the "Layouts" sub-page in addition to the main project page.)

I probably should contribute my humble opinions on some issues, even though some may now be irrelevant.

• As for how much information to include in articles: I consider myself an "inclusionist", so I feel that any information relevant to a specific car does belong in that car's article.
• I support the idea of "infoboxes" for manufacturers.
• I have no problem with making separate articles for each generation of an automobile model.
• I feel it's important to not ever average out any data and then present it as fact: to do so would be misleading.

—Vespristiano 02:12, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

I mostly with Vespristiano (blimely, that's a big name to type!), although we have to be careful to ensure that the important information is presented first and clarity is always maintained. I saw someone deposit a full spec sheet for the VW Passat recently. Full marks for effort but it wasn't very readable so the important facts were lost. What's important? I guess anything which a lay person tends to understand about a car: engines, bodystyle, build years etc. Heavily technical details and trivia come way down the list.

I don't agree with having separate articles for generations though. I can see the value of it but it makes it harder to refer to improvements across versions. My 2pence worth. --Pete Richardson 08:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree: no matter how much information is presented, the most important information should be as accessible as possible. As for separate articles for each generation, the problem of "[referring] to improvements across versions" is one I hadn't realized. For that very reason, perhaps separate pages are an overall bad idea. —Vespristiano 22:18, 2004 Apr 7 (UTC)

My opinion is that we should start with a single page for each model, with differences and specific details for each generation under seperate headings, as in the current VW Golf. Once any of those headings reaches an excessive size, then a new article can be created, and the section of the main article adapted to read something along the lines of '==Mk.4 Golf==; See [[VW Golf Mk.4]] for more infomation; :The Mk.4 was produced until 2003 blah blah etc summery'. Much along the lines of how the country articles are now: United Kingdom contains a brief history and a link to History of the UK or whatever. Hope you understand what I mean (not sure it makes sense lol). We need to do something with regard to presentation and navigation, some articles are getting difficult to read. For example 3rd generation of the BMW 5-Series has floods of information on the BMW E34 page but no link from the main BMW 5-Series page. I'll have a look at tidying that up as a reference. No offence btw to PlatinumX who put a lot of hard work into those pages :) akaDruid 11:05, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the idea to make sections of car pages for generations, and then separate articles with more detail. —Vespristiano 21:24, 2004 Apr 8 (UTC)

I really like the style of this table from another article. Could we adapt it for our use and thus make our data box look even better?

—Vespristiano 22:01, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling Error

Note for anyone who has used the example layout: there was a spelling error where "companents" in the data box should be "components". Please correct any articles that you have used this layout with. Thanks. --Pete Richardson 13:22, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Car classifications

For the Class: section on the data table, I think we should have a standard of choices to choose from. Car classification would be great, but it's currently a bit disorganized and possibly incomplete. There are many ways of classifying a car. Is 'sedan' a class or a body style (which we should also standardize)? Should we go by purpose (i.e. sports car, offroader) even if the distinctions can be fuzzy? Is the Toyota Prius an economy car, a compact car, or a hatchback? Even the EPA regulations seem a little lacking (but at least they're consistent). Just a bit to think about :) PlatinumX 23:15, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Hopefully once Car classification stabilises a little we will have a better list. I'm off there to have a look now :) akaDruid 10:18, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Custom Element

I've created a custom element for VW, so you can put {{msg:VW}} into the text, and it will come out as at the bottom of the example (only with the page you are on not linked). What do people think? akaDruid 17:18, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sedan disambiguation

Please modify your template to disambiguate sedan to sedan (car). Thanks. RedWolf 04:52, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

It's done. This template is 'work in progress' anyway, and not finalised, so anyone may modify or improve it. akaDruid 09:29, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "The Automobile series"

I fail to see the point of the final line of the infobox. We've discussed it before in random pages, but we have to decide here. The final "This article is part of the automobile series" line serves no purpose - we can all tell it's an automobile. Either we add a separate series for each marque (I like this idea) or we just kill that line. Thoughts? --SFoskett 02:35, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

I have added marques on all Lincoln articles where the bottom line now reads: "This article is part of the Lincoln automobile Series. This way users have an easy link back to the manufacturer's page. You're right though just adding automobile is uneccesary. Gerdbrendel 19:09, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence case

I propose that the layout box uses sentence case to match section headings. Thus 'Body styles' instead of 'Body Styles'. Bobblewik  (talk) 15:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Seconded, with the note that proper nouns (like vehicle names) still get capitalized. --SFoskett 16:13, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spaces in units of measure

I propose that there is a space between the unit of measure and the unit symbol. Thus '4804 mm' instead of '4804mm'. Bobblewik  (talk) 15:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I propose non-breaking spaces instead. --SFoskett 16:14, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

That is fine by me. Bobblewik  (talk) 16:18, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Style for number ranges

I propose that we make more use of the term 'to' rather than '-' for number ranges. Thus '4731 to 4804 mm' instead of '4731-4804 mm'. One reason is that characters that look like '-' also look like minus. Bobblewik  (talk) 15:35, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We have begun using ndash (–) instead. I prefer it to a textual "to". --SFoskett 16:15, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

I noticed the use of ndash (–). It still looks similar to a minus. In most instances the reader can use context to resolve ambiguity, but it may not always be resolvable without prior knowledge or pleasant. What if you were talking about temperatures from minus 10 to minus 20 degrees Celsius? Bobblewik  (talk) 16:26, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Blue boxes

Gerdbrendel (talk • contribs) has been adding "blue boxes" surrounding the engine information. What do folks think of these? I personally don't like them - they overemphasize the engine stuff and (currently) force ugly line wraps. But of course this is WikiProject Automobiles, not WikiProject Sfoskett (sadly! LOL) so I'd like other opinions. See Chevrolet Tahoe for example. --SFoskett 18:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand that some users may not like the boxes, but I would like to explain why I came up with them. I noticed that the infoboxes on some car pages were extremely long because thay listed the engine specs for every single generation of the vehicle. On other pages such as the Lincoln Town Car the egine specs were not at all mentioned in the infobox but instead were part of the text. The Town Car is where I started the Blue Boxes to differenciate the Engine Specs and make the text appear shorter, and thus more appealing to users. So please also view the Lincoln Town Car article as it is the birthplace of the blue box. I sincerely hope we can settle our creative differences by also keeping in that these blue boxes are more than just pretty or ugly since they serve a higher purpose than that of esthetics. The Blue boxes make articles appeat better organized, easier to read and by shortening the text more appealing to users. If you can't get over their look please consider that I'd gladly change their color. On the Lincoln LS article for example I have created lightgrey boxes. Please view both the Lincoln Town Car and Lincoln LS before making up your mind. Thank you very much. Gerdbrendel 19:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing like these that I can see in any other area of Wikipedia. Most other areas seem to use infoboxes, for example, but just include information like this in tables in the text.

I agree that it is important to find a consistent place for vehicle statistics, since it is likely that this will proliferate as time goes on. However, engine information is just one area. I suspect that trim lines and transmission, for example, will soon also be included.

I would like to suggest that we use class=wikitable tables rather than blue or gray boxes. Here is a suggestion:

Years	Model	Engine type	Displacement	Power	Torque
Late 2006–	S 450	M113 V8	4.6 L	340 PS (335 hp/250 kW)
2006–	S 550	M113 V8	5.5 L	388 PS (383 hp/285 kW)	391 ft·lbf (530 N·m)
Early 2006–	S 600	M275 twin-turbo V12	5.5 L	517 PS (510 hp/380 kW)
Late 2006–	S 63 AMG	M113 V8	6.2 L	510 PS (503 hp/375 kW)
2006–	S 65 AMG	M275 twin-turbo V12	6.0 L	612 PS (604 hp/450 kW)

What do you think? Clearer and easier to read than anything we've done before... --SFoskett 21:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this table also on the Lexus LS page and have used something similar before. I agree they include more information than my blue boxes that is esaier to read. This way the infoboxes stay short and tech specs are have their seperate place, preventing the article from becoming So, since they do waht my blue boxes were supposed to do, I have no problem with class=wikitable tables replacing my blue boxes, I favor the idea. The only problem is that before creating the Blue Box, I used a regular table to list all egnines, then another user suggested I use something else or merge my generation specific tables into one huge-gigantic infobox. As a compromise I created a table that didn't look like a table. But since your suggestion is a bit different plus it being disscussed here, it shouldn't have a problem prevailing on the car articles. Great, Thank you Gerdbrendel 23:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Automobile

Lincoln Town Car
Manufacturer	Ford Motor Company
Production	1981–present
Predecessor	Lincoln Continental
Class	Full-size luxury car
Body style	4-door sedan
Platform	FR Panther
Related	Mercury Grand Marquis
Similar	Cadillac DTS Lexus 460LS

There is a new effort afoot to create a variable Template:Infobox Automobile. Please feel free to contribute. I have added it to Hyundai Azera as a test. --SFoskett 21:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I think there should most defenitely should be a standard infobox. But again my worry is lenght. I think engine, transmission, and dimensions should be mentioned in the table you proposed above. This new table would be put in for each generation, breaking up the text and curbing execcsive infobox lenght. I don't know whether or not the platform should be mentioned in the boxes mentioned above or the infobox

Here's my infobox proposal (Town Car as example):

FYI I have revamped the Lincoln Town Car site. Gerdbrendel 23:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I gotta agree - I think the auto infobox should only include general information about the auto, not generation or model-specific things like length, etc... I intend to propose a generation-specific sub-box to add to the Automobile Infobox template.

Note that I just changed your Lincoln Town Car example (to the right) into the new Infobox Automobile with no loss of data! --SFoskett 17:59, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The new infobox looks great and I'll put it to use on all Lincoln articles. I still beleive the table you proposed above would work for generations; I use it on the Lincoln sites for each gengeration's engines and dimensions (L/W/Wb), when that information is available. Thanks. Gerdbrendel 19:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Concept Model Infoboxes

HI, I have just created two articles for the Lincoln MK9 and Navicross concept models and have noticed that the standard infobox I use for cars in production doesn't really fit the concept cars. I think a new infobox should be created for Concept Cars Only that features a spaces for the year when they were presented as well as the Auto Show where they were presented. Thanks. Gerdbrendel 23:06, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

That sounds ok. Another option would be to add some optional fields to the standard infobox, but then most cars wouldn't use them. Shawnc 18:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{Infobox Automobile engine}}

Casting about for information about aircraft conversions of automobile engines, I decided to be bold and create a new template for automobile engines. Information fields are based on the aircraft {{pistonspecs}}, and style is based on {{Infobox Automobile}}. Example implementations can be seen at Subaru EA engine and Suzuki G engine. McNeight 22:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)