Talk:Yoko Ono

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Needs footnotes and a photo. --kingboyk 19:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
Spelling is an issue.
Peers' should also be identified as currently Gakushuin.

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[edit] McCartney conflicts

This was recently added to the article:

Yoko Ono has had a bad relationship with Paul McCartney for some time in a dispute centred around the writing credits for many Beatles songs, traditionally credited to Lennon/McCartney.McCartney had wanted to change this to Paul McCartney and John Lennon for some songs, but she would not allow it. She had also wanted to remove the McCartney credit for "Give Peace a Chance".

To me, this seems more like gossip than like something that belongs in an encyclopedia, especially with no sources. I have no idea whether it is factual, and no idea how I would verify it.

This page is a reference for the give peace a chance credit: [1]. The rest of it is pretty common knowledge, just search for Mccartney-ono feud, and you'll find all the info you need. its not gossip, its fairly well documented.

Peregrine981 03:30, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

Their shakey relationship is not centered on writing credits at all. They havent got along since day 1 some 35 years ago. This squabble is only the latest in a long list of issues they have with each other. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.29.36.107 (talk • contribs) 8 Nov 2005.

[edit] Japanese musician?

Is it really appropriate to categorize Yoko Ono as a "Japanese musician"? She's western-educated and made most of her career in London and New York. -- Jmabel 17:11, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I had the same question. I'm changing her to "Musicians". - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 04:05, Jun 8, 2004 (UTC)

And how is she a "American musician"? She was born in Japan, is ethnically Japanese, and is a Japanese citizen. --Paul Richter 12:09, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, she releases her music for an American audience, on an American record label, in English. But I agree, the line is fuzzy on this one. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:05, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

It's a case where our categories are a mess. We are trying to categorize musicians by nationality, and some people don't neatly fit that pigeonhole. -- Jmabel 17:36, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps our categories, like article titles, should be "Musicians of Japan" and "Musicians of the United State", which implies location rather than nationality or ethnicity. Hyacinth 18:44, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I too was confused when I found her under "Category:Japanese_Americans" (why won't that link?) since I considered her Japanese, but according to the Japanese Americans article, the designation is defined as "a group of people who trace their ancestry to Japan or Okinawa and are residents and/or citizens of the United States." So she qualifies. --Feitclub 20:37, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Beyond the question about how to describe her nationality, isn't the description "musician and artist" a bit off? The only reason anyone has ever heard of her is that she married John Lennon. She was a celebrity wife, now celebrity widow, who used her husband's fame to gain some exposure for her art and music, but that doesn't make her a musician or an artist. Lots of celebrities release albums, but their descriptions focus on the things that made them famous; for Yoko, that's marrying John Lennon. I can't say much about her art, but, compared to Yoko, Bruce Willis and John McEnroe are musical geniuses.--Rkstafford 19:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Rkstafford, this isn't the place to discuss your opinions of people who have articles dedicated to them. Talk pages are for discussing changes to the article. (205.188.116.73 21:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

I agree with rkstafford. She's not a musician. Even applying an extremely loose definition of the word "musician" does not justify saying she's had "considerable success" as one. Lot's of people release albums full of experimental noise.

As she is a citizen of Japan and the United States, she is a Japanese-American. If someone of African, European, South American etc... ancestry was born in Japan and then moved to the United States and gained citizenship, they, too, would be a Japanese-American. To deny Yoko-Ono the title of Japanese-American enforces the idea that people of Asian ancestry in the United States are forever foreign and "belong" to their home countries, which is obviously not the case if they attain citizenship and reside in America.

[edit] Speculation

I cut the following recent addition:

There is some speculation that Yoko Ono tried to make herself a member of the Beatles, which may have been a major factor in their break up.

There is some speculation about a lot of things, but unless you have a citation, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:41, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tony Cox

An anonymous contributor (who is making mostly good, but extensive and uncommented) edits, has now twice, without explanation, removed the characterization of Ono's 2nd husband Tony Cox as a "Christian fundamentalist filmmaker". I am not getting into an edit war here, but I would like an explanation. Is this an argument over fact? (I'd be open to comparing sources.) Or is this just a claim that this is irrelevant material? (I would strongly disagree.) -- Jmabel | Talk 20:24, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)

Tony Cox was a member of fanatical christian organization from around 1972 to 1977. His most notable work as a filmmaker was a negative portrayal of that organization years later. Characterizing him as a Christian Filmmaker at all doesn't really work or make any sense. I would say he doesn't even qualify as a filmmaker. 63.3.5.129 04:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 21:48, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Artistic inadequacies

Her photograph of Lennon's spectacles, bloodstained from when he was fatally shot outside their Manhattan apartment building on December 8, 1980, sold at auction in London in April 2002 for about $13,000. REMOVED: However in her recent work her decision in September 2004 to turn the main shopping street of Liverpool into a long parade of naked breasts seems crass and highlights her artistic inadequacies.

Removed because this is author's POV, not neutral. Edit to describe prevailing opinion? -Tznkai

[edit] June 2005 remarks

The UK newspaper The Times, for example, called it: "Brilliant ... As always with Ono’s art, a simple act has become a radical one."

The above quotation contained in the article is factually incorrect, in fact the Times did not say that the art itself was "brilliant" but the writer said that the offense caused to the people in Liverpool and "successfully to get right up the noses of the locals, as she always has" was what was referred to as "brilliant".

Here is a link to the article so you can she how the original text has been misinterpreted:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7951-1277922,00.html

Since this site is based on fact, I have removed the above section unless of course the original writer wishes to place the quotation in its intended context, based on prejudice.

EDIT: Someone keeps putting this misquote from the Times back in, whoever is doing this I strongly suggest they follow the link above and actually read the article. I have added a short paragraph from the artice that places the comment in its context and avoids misrepresentation. It now reads:

The UK newspaper The Times said: "Ono manages successfully to get right up the noses of the locals, as she always has. Brilliant...As always with Ono’s art, a simple act has become a radical one."

Please remember this an encyclopedia so let's try to be factual instead of making stuff up!

Tlawrence

I am adding the following text to the article, I can support the text from reputable news sources and can cite dates of publication. The figures can be found on the BBC news site (I have the web address if there is any problem with these) and the quotations were contained in several sources including the Guardian:

A phone poll by BBC North West Tonight saw 92% of 6,000 viewers who contacted the programme call for all of the posters to be removed from Liverpool. Local councillors welcomed the decision to remove the image from the memorial, saying organisers had been forced to bow to public pressure. "I'm delighted that it has been removed," said Joe Anderson, the leader of the Labour group. "I find it appalling that the picture was put in a place which offended people. St Luke's is a war memorial and many people felt it was being desecrated with this picture."

As this section of text can be supported by reputable news sites and media I feel that has as much place on the site as the section of the article that quotes the Time article that calles Yoko's art "brilliant".

Other quotations included are the comments of Brian Sewell which can be found on the BBC entertainment website, and recent controversy where Yoko edited herself into Beatles' videos in which she did not originally appear. This can be confirmed on the Fox News website.

Tlawrence

[edit] Name

Should her name in Japanese be given (at least in parentheses) in the first sentence rather than in the second paragraph? Was there reasoning for the position in it's in now? ~ Dpr 05:04, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Interesting, if true

A bunch of rather personal biographical information was recently added to the article, which I'd put under the heading of "interesting, if true". No citations, and all came from an IP address never seen before, who edited for about an hour. Does anyone have citations for any of this? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:49, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

It looks to me like too much information too well written to be made up. M.C. Brown Shoes 09:19, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Oh, agreed, but it's the sort of stuff that needs citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:32, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hatred

I personally am a major fan of her and don't believe she caused the Beatles to break, but taht is an undeniable accusation which is much of what people hear. I think that it should at least be mentioned with a neutral POV. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yelarekardondayo (talk • contribs) 1 Nov 2005.

Here is a quote from Lennon that may change your view: "It seemed that I either had to be married to them or Yoko. I chose Yoko ... and I was right. They despised her. They insulted her and still do ... they can go stuff themselves." [2] --129.173.105.28 01:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed from Wikipedia:Good articles

Sorry, I just don't think this is up to GA standard. The lead section is too short, and the references should substantiate the whole article's content, not just a recent event. Johnleemk | Talk 06:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Just some FYI: Everyone hated Linda McCartney and blamed her also for the break up of the Beatles until she got cancer and died. Now everyone "loves" her. People grow, people change, and the Beatles surely did that in the ten years they were together.

[edit] that's a lie

I red this article n i guess that's a lie, big lie, u know y? coz Yoko Ono not a Japanese, but she's a Japanese-American, coz she get the United States citizenship, n i guess this article's not neutral side, were u in Japanese side, coz u change evrythin' 4 Japanese, ex: B's no 56 in Best sellin' album of all time, wat is this? How abt Koes Plus(Indonesia)n Siti Nurhaliza(Malaysia)? they sold over 100 million album in South East Asia, so they must be in list, but in fact they'r not in there!!!! back 2 Yoko Ono article, i guess that same if u call Al Capone is Italian or Bing Crosby is Irish. so i guess this site(Wikipedia) lose ur neutral side only 4 Asian, i'm Asian , but i don't lie this, remember! Asia not only Japanese, how abt Indonesia, China or India? they'r Asia! But u never get article of them. Perhaps a little, but that's all, so i supose u must change ur article 2 b neutral article, not asian side article, not just coz Japanese is ur Partner n u forgot other country, ok, Ty 4 ur attent............

friend, the great thing about wikipedia is you can fix it! just like you added your comments on this discussion page, you can edit the article. just remember to follow wikipedia policies when you do so, and if you set up a wikipedia account (under 5 seconds!) it makes it a little easier to communicate with you. -Justforasecond 01:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, Yoko Ono remains a Japanese citizen. If she's also taken U.S. citizenship, that would be news to me. She certainly hadn't at the time of Lennon's death 25 years ago. Does anyone have a citation either on her being naturalized, or when?

Also, I seriously doubt the claim of Siti Nurhaliza ever selling 100 million copies of an album. No question she's a star, and while I can't find any sales figures in ten minutes of web-searching I wouldn't be the least surprised to hear that she has had million-selling recordings, but 100 million-selling? I sincerely doubt it. Do you have a citation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 20:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] critics unanimously...

Are there any citations for this section:

The media were largely unfair in their coverage of the tour

Who is this "media"?

In one case, a photo of Ono rehearsing to an empty hall before the show was printed as if nobody had come to the actual concert.

This sounds a bit POV, depending on the caption of the photo. There are a lot of photos like this

Despite the bad press, however...critics unanimously praised her for her performances

Well it seems *some* critics weren't very praising -- there was a German DJ asking people to throw bottles at her ;)

-Justforasecond 01:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sam Havadtoy

According to imdb, Yoko married Sam Havadtoy after John's death - Is it not necessary to point out this fact in this article? --1523 02:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Just goes to show you can trust IMDB only so far. While he was presumably her lover, and certainly her companion, for even longer than Lennon, I'm pretty sure they were never married. I know that claim has been made; I'd have to see a much better cite than IMDB before I believed it, though. But he probably should be mentioned in the article, once we can sort out what to say. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I recently wrote a term paper on Yoko Ono, and the only source I found indicating that they were married was IMDB, and since a few of their other "facts" on her page were also wrong, I decided the site wasn't credible as a biography of her. I love the site, but it's often wrong. Folkor 17:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Good for (official) film credits, pretty good for dates of birth, but I hesitate to trust it for anything else. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] a shareholder and director of Apple?

According to a July 28, 1987 article written by the Associated Press, Apple sued Nike Inc., Capitol Records Inc., EMI Records Inc. and Wieden+Kennedy advertising agency for $15 million. Capitol-EMI countered by saying the lawsuit was 'groundless' because Capitol had licensed the use of "Revolution" with the "active support and encouragement of Yoko Ono Lennon, a shareholder and director of Apple." Why cant i find out about this in the article when its in a Nike article ?--Whywhywhy 05:08, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] citations

can we have some citations for ono's family hiding out in underground bunkers during wwii?

-Justforasecond 22:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This sentence does not make sense.

He was taken with the attitude and interactivity of her work, such as a ladder leading up to the word "Yes" written on the ceiling, that she asked him to pay 200 pounds to hammer a nail into a panel of wood (the show was beginning the following day), and a decomposing apple.

Someone care to clean this up? --Dforest 03:33, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I have updated and expanded that part of the article as follows:

They first met when Lennon visited a preview of an exhibition of Ono's at the Indica Gallery in London on November 9, 1966. He was taken with the humor and interactivity of her work, such as a ladder leading up to a black canvas with a spyglass on a chain allowing John to read the word "Yes" written on the canvas. There was also what looked like a real apple displayed with a card reading "APPLE." When John was told the price of the apple was 200 pounds, he thought "This is a joke, this is pretty funny" (Spitz, page 650). Another display was a painted wall with a sign inviting visitors to hammer a nail into its surface. Since the show was not beginning until the following day, Ono refused to allow Lennon to pound the first nail. After a heated discussion with the gallery owner, she told Lennon he could hammer the first nail for five shillings. Lennon replied, "I'll give you an imaginary five shillings if you let me hammer in an imaginary nail" (Spitz, page 632).

I hope these changes have helped change the sentence to an accurate description of the exhibit and their first meeting. JJ 23:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Good work. Though "what looked like a real apple" is slightly unclear -- it was in fact a real apple, right? And was it allowed to decompose during the exhibition? Dforest 02:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm on shaky ground. I'm not certain that the display was of a real apple, and I have read nothing about it decomposing. We should wait for someone who has more specific information to pipe in. JJ 23:07, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] early life?

all this early life stuff sounds suspicious to me....the emperor was crazy about yoko, yoko's riches-to-rags, character-building story, etc. anyone know where this came from? it at least deserves a "according to so-and-so" in front of it. Justforasecond 01:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I've rewritten the early life section to at least confirm to the known facts. Her family was at the top of Japanese prewar society and very aristocratic. She went to the same schools as the future emperor but anything else is impossible to know because its all schoolyard romance kind of stuff. I think that every girl in that school was convinced that the emperor was crazy about them and didn't take much more than one word or a look to put that idea in their heads. As far as I know, there was never a riches-to-rags story in her life except in a relative sense. Her period of poverty happened at an exclusive mountain resort where the children of the imperial family had also been sent. Even in those circumstances, they had to struggle to get food, but comparatively speaking in 1945 Japan she did not suffer at all. And within a year, she was back enrolled at the "Eton" of Japan. 12.96.162.45 16:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of famous prostitutes and courtesans

This list has the following line under the heading "Alleged prostitutes":

Yoko Ono, according to Albert Goldman's book The Lives of John Lennon

I would ask those familiar with the topic to review it. I have never heard of this, and don't think she should be listed as a "alleged prostitute". However, my attempt to remove her (with many others) was reverted. I don't have the book, so I can't check it (though the article we have on it mentions this). I don't think just because one book says something that we should automatically place her on this list. I think famous people have all sorts of rumors about them, and its a mistake to put them on "alleged lists" for each and every rumor. --Rob 00:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I thought that was a well known fact by now? Justforasecond 02:46, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, its not in the bio article. So if its well known, it apparently wasn't seen as signficant. --Rob 03:35, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Goldman makes the charge about her in the 1950s when she was at college. But he isn't very convincing. Its easy enough to show that she slept around alot. But prostitute requires that she charges. Beyond the lack of evidence for that, there is the problem of what motivation she would have to do it. She didn't lack for money in the years Goldman alleges she did it.12.96.162.45

[edit] Recent edits

I take exception to the some of the edits by 71.106.227.57. The new edit states, "and from that point, they fell in love." They did not begin an affair until two years after the exhibition. And, unless someone has a specific quote from Lennon, how can anyone know when they fell in love? Also, what is the source for John wanting "out" of the group before he met Ono? There needs to be a source for this assertion. Before I rewrite some of this, I'd like to have a discussion here. JJ 14:49, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, I restored wording of a direct quote from Spitz's book. It seems to me it's very bad form to edit direct quotes, unless they are misquoted.JJ 16:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fell in love

I deleted the statement about when John and Yoko fell in love. First, it can't be verified. Second, it's not relevant to an encyclopedic entry. I welcome comments. JJ 23:27, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] non-objective statement

the sentence "Ono's work may best be appreciated by an open mind" is subjective, has imperious connotations, and adds nothing to this article. thus i am deleting it. User:BlueHalo 24:05, 13 March 2006

[edit] Vandalism

Removed this from the intro paragraphs.

In Japanese kanji, her name is written 小野洋子 . Removed a silly comment that had nothing to do with the kanji for Ono Yoko. [[steven 15:23, 19 August 2006 (UTC)]]

Also replaced it with: In Japanese kanji, her name is written 小野洋子 (Ono Yōko). Found it on one of the many sites scraping wikipedia. --Rouge8 05:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I just reverted it to before a string of vandalizing edits by Matt Bartlett74, who with poor grammar replaced several important facts with hateful rants.

[edit] Japanese Opera??

In the section life with Lennon her music is deemed influenced by "japanese opera". Is the author of this sentence thinking of beijing (chinese) opera? I've never heard this term used. --204.210.233.225 18:09, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The article constantly berates Yoko Ono's music, making it sound like a scientific fact that her music is of poor quality, unenetertaining, and of no value. It also accuses Yoko Ono of deceiving customers into thinking they were buying a John Lennon album. These accusations are falsities with no factual basis, which only express the opinions of a handful. The article has to be reworked to express a NPOV. Here's an example of why:

"However, while Lennon's utilized mostly conventional songwriting, Ono's was an all-out screaming assault. Her album included raw and quite harsh vocals that were possibly influenced by Japanese opera. Some "songs" consisted of no more than wordless vocalizations, in a style that would influence Diamanda Galas, Meredith Monk, and other musical artists who have used screams and vocal noise in lieu of words. Perhaps, the most famous song on Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band is "Why", which features Ono screaming the word "Why" for five minutes."

[edit] False Claim

Removed "Ono was among the first to explore conceptual art and performance art" and replaced it with a simple statement that she did explore these forms. Western Performance art began, at the latest, within the futurist movement at the early beginning of the 20th century.

--Daniel 21:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

The thumbnail for the GFDL-licensed image Yokobedin1.JPG is not showing up in either of my browsers. Anyone know how to fix this? (Ibaranoff24 03:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC))

Its not working for me either. --66.218.11.146 07:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I purged the image description page - seems to be working now.--Weakmassive 19:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some information from 2004

Shouldn't it be included? or is it not important enough? Yoko makes a public display Austerlitz 88.72.20.196 13:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other articles of people contain a "criticism" section.

Should she have one?--Greasysteve13 05:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, no. Unless someone can come up with a reason to criticize her legacy or something to that matter intelligently, sure. But I'm afraid that I would only expect a sugar coated "Yoko Ono is that 'whore' who broke up the Beatles" bullshit on her criticisms page.

Well, this is indeed a popular and common criticism of Yoko Ono, and as such should be reported, no matter how much we agree or not with it: it is widespread in popular culture. --Cyclopia 13:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship with Sam Havadtoy - how long is "some time"?

"Some time after her husband's murder, Ono began a relationship with antiques dealer Sam Havadtoy, which lasted until 2001."

According to this New York Times article, and every other source I've seen, Ono became involved with Havadtoy immediately or very shortly after Lennon's death. 217.155.20.163 01:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] La Monte Young

The "Emergence into the art world" section contained the following sentence:

"La Monte Young, her first important contact (and lover) in the New York art world…"

I have removed "(and lover)" due to the absence of any citations to support the assertion. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 08:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect Category

This article seemingly belongs to the "large trivia sections" category, which is untrue, seeing as there's no trivia section at all! If there aren't any objections, I'm removing. Anton1234 05:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Considering the Linda McCartney article

Shouldn't this be Yoko, Lady Lennon? XD —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 00:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm not certain of the rules of Knighthood, but I believe the wife of a Knight becomes a Lady, thus Lady McCartney (or Lady Linda?) per Sir Paul. Lennon wasn't knighted, so Ono wouldn't have that title. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Freshacconci (talk • contribs) 17:13, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

I thought he was. Kinda uneven to knight one and not the other, innit? (Oh right, he's dead)

[edit] Diamanda Galas influence?

I don't know Diamanda Galas to be influenced by Yoko Ono in any way. Diamanda Galas is a classically trained singer who developed her extreme vocal techniques (multiphonics, a three and a half octave vocal range, etc.) while performing operas by avant garde composers. I'm sure more than one music journalist has claimed that Galas is using Ono's "primal scream technique," but Galas would definitely take issue with it. An interviewer once refered to her "screaming" and she replied with something along the lines of: "Oh, if I were screaming my voice would have gone out ten years ago." I don't think it's fair to say Ono influenced Galas if Galas herself would dispute it. If someone can find a quote from Galas naming Yoko Ono as an influence, put it back up. Skotoseme 05:17, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

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