Talk:Zamanfou

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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 January 2006. The result of the discussion was KEEP. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2 April 2006. The result of the discussion was Speedy keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on 11 July 2006. The result of the discussion was Speedy keep.

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Talk:Zamanfou/Archive 1

Contents 1 Wikipedia:An encyclopedia or a blog?This article favors the latter 2 NPOV 3 shame 4 Not only 5 Financial world claims 6 And a little lesson on Weasel wording 7 and something about the "techniques" 8 Can Zamanfou be charachterised as a meme? 9 Sources 10 συγχαρητηρια! 11 Τι ειναι Ελληνες; 12 Τωρα μιλας σωστα 13 Original research and weasel wording with a clear agenda

[edit] Wikipedia:An encyclopedia or a blog?This article favors the latter

Ok,here is a typical article of the kind that turns Wikipedia into a blog. I thought Wikipedia was supposed to be an encyclopedia,not a site where everyone can state personal beliefs and aphorisms and turn them into articles.

WP:NOT states that Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia.

It states Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. Please read the main description of Wikipedia: an "international Web-based free-content encyclopedia.". The author's wrongful assumption that Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia is probably what lead to this debate. The author has to revise his article as an encyclopedical one. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

Paper or not, one and the same

WP:IS: Wikipedia can be edited by anyone.

so, let me get this straight. you 're not here to have a discussion on the article, you're here to make this article go away, so, you decided it would be best to write a letter to the wikipedia editors and sysadmins and complain about it. In the talk page. Heh. Good work.

Personally I hope to discuss with you in order to convince you to remove the article. I think it would be innapropriate to remove large pieces of your article that you have taken the pains to write. (and you've wrote well, although not fit for wikipedia).--panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

Ok, i'll byte: if you can convince me that there's no zamanfu attitude in Greece, I'll nominate the article do delition, myself. Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 09:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

If I convinced you that while you believe in the existence of such an attitude, you could still delete your (well written) article it because it fails to prove its point, would it do? I am talking about proof because you are trying to point to a cultural phenomenon that has been previously unrecorded in any other encyclopedical reference. --panos

You're telling us, you're not insterested in improving or fixing this article as you see fit or trying to reach a conscensus, as it's custom, in the ways of the Wiki.

Soooo, effectively, you're firing off fireworks; you're engaging in the standard practice of any member of the Greek parliament: raise enough fuss over an issue, and people will agree with you, just so you'ld put a sock it it.

Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

And this is even easier when it comes to supposedly social phenomena,like the so called "Zamanfou" phenomenon,where there is no way of proof either ways,as there is let's say in historical facts.So,everyone can write whatever they want and make it an article.

That's the general idea, yes. Anyone can write in the wiki about anything. Community concensus decides if it stays or not. Thanks to lots of clueful people the good articles stay and all the pokemon-cruft goes to AfD. :> Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The truth is,however,slightly different.Yes,the fact that Greeks drink frappe coffees and make gestures,doesn't necessarily make (all of?) them lazy "Zamanfoutists"... The easiest thing is to generalize like that (Germans are cold,English are drunk, Americans are idiot,Italians are hot,kangaroos cook delicious pizzas...yeah,right). But then what about the Eurobarometer statistics(does anyone doubt the E.U. Statistical Service??Is it less accredible than our friend who wrote this article?don't think so) that say that Greeks work the most hours per week than any other European? Mmmmm,well,it doesn't suit our article,so let's ignore it...right?? Well,you can't write an article this way...And dear Wikipedia editors,you can't accept articles like that if you want your site to be called "the free encyclopedia"... A "Free Blog",maybe...

Oy.

1) There's no generalization in the article. It shows a trend. like a pop culture trend.

2) Noboby is accusing the Greek people of being lazy: not as people, neither as signularities. I'm describing a system which has led each Greek citizen to tolerate any kind of crap thrown in his face, as long as the table is full of food, during lunchtime. Hell, i should know, i was working for 14 hours today, trying to freaking finish a GPL'ed Teresias application.

3) Oy, oy. The EU Statistical service. No, it's not less credible than me, but the way the Greek media totted the story along, and how you're trying to create an argument from authority is. Heh. Good try, thought. The way those results where filtered by the Greek Mass media for the purpose of mass consumption by your average OKOMOE (Gewrgiou, gar!), was really impressive. They never mentioned any numbers or published the full qualitative comparison portion of the report. "Greeks work 8 more hours per week compared to the average EU worker" - (Yay, we're no. 1!!! Ichiban! Greek Workers for teh Winnar!). Specmanship at its finest: Percentages without the underlying numbers are meaningless. Furthermore, the sentence by itself is twice useless as a statistical reference, because it simply states that Greeks stay at work, 8 additional hours than your average 40-hours-a-week EU citizen. There's no comparison to the quantity and/or quality of work produced during those 8 additional hours.

(just to let ya know the answer as to why Greeks "work" more: In Greece, Labor is cheaper compared to raising capital and investing in machines)

Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Besides,as a Greek I can understand a thing or two about the user who wrote this article, Project2501..."Anypotaksia,apallagi,I5" means "Unruliness,abatement",while I5 is a military code for people who are unable or in some cases not willing to join the Military Forces... So I guess we are dealing with a person not more than 30 (or perhaps even 25) years of age, who is about to go to the Army and hates it or went to the Army and hated it,or thinks of himself as an anarchist,and that justifies his aphoristical views on the greek society (now I am generalizing,I know..so perhaps,I should make an article out of it,I m sure people at Wikipedia will accept it and keep it..)

1) WP:No Personal Attacks is applicable here, i think.

2) I didn't write this article, I expanded it.

3) I'm 31, I've already done with my tour in the army. If you had bothered to read my user page, you'd find out.

4) Perhaps you oughta brush your English up. ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ and ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ translate to insubordination and Getting rid of something/dodging, respectively. In this particular context, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ' refers to the draft).

5) I don't justify anything. I'm laying them down as i see'em and i've been trying for the past six months to finish that damn book by Margaritis "The Greek society from the Civil War to the Metapolitefsi", so i can provide references. It's over 5 thousand pages, give me a break!

6) I have no aphoristical views on the Greek society: that's going to sort itself out, one way or the other. It's the Greek people i'm worried about :>

7) What does my character or my own beliefs have to do with with the article? Why are you not making a point by point explaination of whare you're disagreeing with?

8) You're falling victim to the same aphorisms which you're accusing me of.

9) You're free to make any article you wish in the wiki. Consensus decides if it should be kept or not.

10) Like most of the other Greek people that passed through this article, you're not making any changes or trying to have a discussion on the article or the points of the article. Please, try being a bit more constructive: Don't just argue for the sake of arguing. You could try to work on the article, instead :)

Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

To conclude,I m sorry that you are keeping articles like this one that refer to personal opinions and generalizations...This is not an encyclopedia,this is what a blog does... I m sorry that my trust to your "Blog" is (now that I come to think of it) once again undermined...

Cheers, Athlios - "the miserable".

Well dear le miserable, apparently, there's more than one person in this talk page that agrees with my point of view. so, i guess that makes my point of view a bit more than a personal opinion and a grand generalization :)

Perhaps we can work together on improving this article.

Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to the discussion archive as well as the discussions for the article's deletion (both times voted to be kept). If you think it's generalizing and not all Greeks are like that, just make it clear in the article. If you think that Europeans are like this, also do mention it in the article. I added a relevant link about Italians. Pictureuploader 09:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

He made it very clear. The author of the article is taking an expression and applies it to the Greek society. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

``Zamanfou, also known as Zaman-Fu, as well as "starhidismos" Greek "σταρχιδισμός" or "ohaderfismos" Greek "Ωχαδερφισμός" ("oh-my-brotherism"), is a counterculture phenomenon in Greece,,

1) The above defition is fallaciously vulgar: there is absolutely no connection between the "zamanfou" word and vulgar expressions in Greece. Zamanfou is NOT considered a vulgarity.

2) The above definition is not factual. I was not aware of any counterculture phenomenon called "Zamanfou" or Zaman-Fu or "Ζαμανφου" or "Ζα μαν φου" in Greece, even though I live in Greece for more than 30 years. There is no such thing as a Zamanfou phenomenon or movement. Attempting to connect this word with various facts such as World War II, the Regime of the Colonels, bureaucracy, Zen, the cohesiveness of the Greek society, vulgar gestures that point to the testicles, the Karate Kid and the Hellenic Armed Forces creates a soup of facts that are in no way connected to each other and definitely won't provide any base to define a counter-culture phenomenon. The article has been written in a way that prevents non-Greeks from getting a clear picture of the author's point.

The texts makes it clear it's not a movement or any organised ideology.

Ad Verecundiam is not only a problem of the original article, but on your defense of the article as well. Your statement is correct, but it is not related to what it appears is quoting. --panos

It's an attitude phenomenon. What is a phenomenon? Something observable, practically anything. All those unrelated things you mention aren't attempting to be connected to the concept of Zamanfou, as you already know, they are given as a background, or as examples, not as factors of Zamanfou. Pictureuploader 21:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Even if it were "background" it would not suffice for proof is what required to show the existance of an "attitude phenomenon". But it's not even background, because none of these "factors" are related to a word used to describe indiference. A phenomenon is something observable, even by one person. But to describe a "counterculture phenomenon" in an encyclopedia you have rely on recorded observations by many people and hard related facts. This article has none. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

3) The author does not base his hypothesis on related facts or related verifiable sources. Sure, Karate Kid is real. But is it realted? No. Sure the WWII is real. But is it related? No. Sure, Greeks have vulgar expressions like anyone else. But is this related to a phenomenon? No. That goes for every fact that is presented on the article.

So, Uh, Stratis Mirivilis and Nikos Dimou are not related verifiable sources? is that what you're saying? Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Uh, I haven't seem them quoted in the article. Citations are nice, but you have to quote specific phrases in which either author attributes a tendency of indifference to the Greek society. And then you'll have to explain how all this is connected to the vulgarity presented on the article which is in my opinion completely unecessary. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

Pop culture doesn't mind if something is related to something else in order to adopt it. Pebbles are not related to football, yet the Euro 2004 anthem was based on the melody of 'Stou gyalou ta votsalakia' Pictureuploader 21:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with your point: the "something elses" mentioned in the article as facts are what melody is to soccer: background music. But an encyclopedia isn't soccer. When one tries to prove the existance of a phenomenon to others (I am sure the original author is convinced of its existance) one should provide directly related facts.-- panos

I'm not trying to prove the existance of ANY phenomenon, as much as Darwinists are trying to prove Evolution. It's there. it just exists :) Maybe the point of your whole argument is the process by which Zamanfu happens Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

``It's there. it just exists,, this phrase, including the smiley, is the core of the problem of the article. Please understand, wikipedia is not a blog. If you believe that there is a cultural phenomeon of indifference in Greece, please provide adequate proof. Otherwise, please remove the article. While I have nothing against your point and I might even agree to it in some cases, the way it is written seriously degrades the quality of Wikipedia. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

You could as well expand/fix/correct/justify and reference the points in which you agree. Pictureuploader 07:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

He's not interested, he just wants it deleted. Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 09:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

3) As it was commented, this article does not belong to an encyclopedia, but on a blog.

4) The article has been voted 2 times to be removed and it was kept. And this is a problem more serious than the article itself. Show this article to any Greek, tell him that it was voted 2 times and kept and you'll lose a wikipedia user. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

I did show it to a bunch of people on the Greek irc network. Funny thing, they are still here :D Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 23:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

By "wikipedia user" I mean users who rely on wikipedia as a reliable, double-checked source of encyclopedical information. I doubt the average Greek irc network user would fall on that category. Considering the author's assumption that "Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia" it would be safe to assume that he is not either. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

User:Keramida, User:Quantis. QED Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 09:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article attributes specific ideas and customs to Greeks in general. This needs to be verified or cleaned up. Thanx.206.116.247.71 17:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.

Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 22:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It is impossible to fix this article, as it is fallacious in its foundation. It attempts to prove the existence of a cultural phenomenon, previously unrecorded in any encyclopedic reference, but relies on unrelated facts. It should be removed and relocated on a blog. --panos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.30.220.80 (talk • contribs).

So, basically, you're re rejecting the entire article... you running for a member of the Greek Parliament or something?

Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 08:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Now what on earth is this supposed to mean? I have followed the whole discussion, disagreed with most of your points which contain logical fallacies, but this is plain inappropriate. Just as you refuted the connotations of someone explaining what your signature means, you should probably be ashamed that you had to retort in this way... a shame. Oh, awful article by the way, freaky generalisations about a minor social phenomenon whose name is not accepted the least, and which also applies to several other european peoples... - Themis —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.212.199.55 (talk • contribs).

.... Themis, you know, uh, I haven't seen you in our discussion before. As a matter of fact, could you ALL get accounts and learn to PROPERLY sign your comments, like this ~~~~? I'm getting lost here Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 17:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

and the point is...? Gryzor 07:06, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I am rejecting your article because I respect Wikipedia as a good, free (as in speech) encyclopedia. I doubt members of the Greek parliament are aware of Wikipedia's existence. --panos

[edit] shame

SHAME TO THOSE WHO WROTE THIS ARTICLE!

I AM MARIA,AGED 14 AND I LIVE IN ATHENS

THIS ARTICLE DOES NOT REPSERSENT THE TRUTH FOR US, GREEKS.IN ANY WAY AND BY NO MEANS....

MOST OF GREEKS DO 2 OR MORE JOBS IN ORDER TO EARN MONEY FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND WORK 12 HOURS A DAY OR MORE.

I HOPE THAT ONE DAY THE RACISM WILL STOP.JUST FOR THE RECORD,TWO YEARS AGO MY AUNT WAS AT AMERICA AND SHE WAS SPEEKING GREEK WITH HER HUSBAND.WHEN SOME REALLY CIVILISED AMERICANS HEARD HER AND UNDERSTOOD WHICH LANGUAGE SHE WAS SPEAKING, THEY SPITED ON THE FLOOR..

THIS ARTICLE IS DEFINETLY WRITTEN BY SUCH CIVILISED PEOPLE.

I'M SO SORRY FOR THOSE WHO THINK LIKE THIS.

THIS ARTICLE IS SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE AND HAS TO BE DELETED.

MARIA—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.92.234.155 (talk • contribs).

They probably thought she was speaking French. Please do focus on ways to improve the article and there's no need to "shout" in all-capitals. Thanks. Jkelly 21:46, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

And btw some of us who write the article, are Greeks Pictureuploader 15:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, 100% of us who wrote and edited this artice are Greek :) Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 Project2501a 06:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Προς καθε ενδιαφερομενο :

• 1. Το αρθρο φραφτηκε κυριως απο Ελληνες
• 2. Σκοπος του δεν ειναι να κατηγορει την Ελλαδα αλλα να περιγραφει ενα ΥΠΑΡΚΤΟ φαινομενο
• 3. Ο σταρχιδισμος ειναι μερος του τροπου ζωης του Νεοελληνα
• ( Διοριστηκα; ας πανε οι αλλοι να πεθανουν )
• ( η κυβερνηση πετσοκοβει τους μισθους ; Εγω πανω δευτερη δουλεια και ας πανε οι αλλοι να πεθανουν )
• ( πεθαινουν παλαιστηνιοι; Λυπαμαι. Αντε τωρα που εξεφρασα τη λυπη μου παμε φια ενα φραπε!)
• 4. Ολοι εσεις που αντιδρατε το κανετε γιατι θιγεται η αξιοπρεπεια της χωρας ή γιατι βλεπετε τον εαυτο σας μεσα στο αρθρο.
• 5. Θελετε τη διαγραφη του; και εγω το ιδιο! ΤΟΤΕ ΠΑΛΕΨΤΕ ΕΝΑΝΤΙΑ ΣΤΟ ΖΜΦ ΣΤΗΝ ΙΔΙΑ ΤΗ ΖΩΗ ΣΑΣ! αν ολοι οι Ελληνες αποσχιστουν απο αυτο το ρευμα τοτε το φαινομενο θα παψει να υπαρχει το ιδιο και αυτο το αρθρο.
• 6. Ξερω ακουγομαι σαν ιεροκυρηκας ..... user:Panosfidis

+eBLOGison+ O KAIROC GAR EGGYC Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 06:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not only

The phenomenon is not only in Greece. Many similar cultures, especially around Mediterranean, use relative phraseology and do have a relevant countercultural trend. Ofcourse there are all those hard working individuals as well, but this phenomenon appears to always exist sometimes among some people. The difference can be found only in frequence and in extent. It would be silly to think that this article aims to insult all Greeks, the same way as it would be silly to imply that all e.g. Italians are very caring and sympathetic. Personally, as a Greek, I feel priviledged that the Greek people are of the few who emphasize this phenomenon, therefore exposing it and discrediting it. In any case, st'archidia mou if someone spits on the floor in contempt, or believes that all Greeks are starchidistes... :NikoSilver: 09:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Financial world claims

This is beyond ridiculous. Someone added the claim that "according to the financial world" zamanfou is responsible for Greek economy problems.. If you're going to attribute a claim to the "financial world" at large, you'd better have the sources to back that up. 62.1.21.50 11:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And a little lesson on Weasel wording

Taken from Wikipedia's pages themselves. What you ought not to do.

Generalization using weasel words

Generalization by means of grammatical quantifiers (few, many, people, etc.), as well as the passive voice ("it has been decided") are also part of weasel wording. Generalization in this way helps the speaker or writer disappear in the crowd and thus disown responsibility for what he has said.

   * "People say…"
   * "Few of those who knew the truth have spoken up for …"
   * "Sometimes it is difficult to do something about it."
   * "It has been decided that..."
   * "It turns out that..."

Who are the people who say ..., who are the people who knew the truth and who ought to have spoken up, and when are the times when it is difficult to do something about something? What has been decided by whom?

According to these policies, unsourced claims such as "it is believed that zamanfou began in Athens" are going to be deleted, and stay deleted, until someone provides SOME kind of source for the claim. 62.1.21.50 11:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but sometimes, popular unoffical notions, rumors, mentalities etc, although they can't be referenced (they are oral, aka 'popular', not theories or research) need to be mentioned to advance the discussion. Pictureuploader 12:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

While I understand this, Wikipedia had to establish some kind of system that would discourage editors from editing their personal opinions into articles. And the policy they came up with -quite reasonably in my opinion- is to prohibit weasel wording in entries. The alternative (having every one and sundry inserting their pet theories as a nebulous "widespread belief") would, in my humble opinion, be much worse.62.1.21.50 12:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Then what can we do if one would mention rumors? Rumors are mostly oral, therefore non-referencable, and despite this they are sometimes good indicators. I think 'consent' is the keyword. If anyone disagrees with something as POV. he can just mention about it in the talk page and discuss (like you have done) instead of deleting it per the rules. Pictureuploader 12:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy. This is really downhill. Ever since when have rumours been the topic of encyclopaedia lemas? Tsk, tsk... Gryzor 07:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody said to base the articles on rumours. What I said, is that sometimes the popular view on something, expressed only by oral tradition, gossips and rumours, is worth of mentioning, in order to show the general social image of a topic; not as sources. Pictureuploader 08:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Not quite; the problem here arises because you take these rumours as authoritative sources that _prove_ your thesis. Coming from a subjective background and referencing back to rumours is hardly the right stuff for a conclusive argument.Gryzor 21:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I didn't intend to use the rumours as proof, at least in this article (I was not the author of 'Background' section). I just said that citing rumours to indicate the popular view on a certain topic and NOT to use the rumour itself as a source on something, diclaiming that it's a rumour, shouldn't always violate Wikipedia's rules. Pictureuploader 08:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that discussion is paramount. But do keep in mind that, just because we might happen to agree on the rumour that "zamanfou first developed among pregnant women", or "men with long nails", or "Commodore64 owners" does not make it any more true (or even a real rumour, at that!). It's not like we have a representative sample of Greek society editing the Wikipedia, after all. And even if we were exactly that, it would still be against Wikipedia policies to insert unsourced beliefs. Moreover, there are sectors of scientific inquiry (sociology, laography) specifically devoted to studying popular beliefs (not to mention the press, which typically reflects and reports on them), so it's not like this kind of matter is "unsourceable" these days. :-) 62.1.21.50 12:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The rule is ok, but it has weaknesses and should be completed with our own knowledge and consent; my stance is not to write POV and OR, however I won't delete something as such which I encounter, in case I find it true. I will let it be deleted (unless sourced) by someone who actually disagrees. In case I disagree with something unsourced, I usually put a {{fact}} tag. But that's just my stance for anyone it might concern. Rules are useless without us to enforce, control and test them. Pictureuploader 13:06, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] and something about the "techniques"

I think the techniques are humour that the author of the article should not have insinuated into the entry, as they degrade its quality. Don't get me wrong, I do recognise that the gesture has a place in the "zamanfou" article (hell! let's insert photos if we feel like illustrating!). However the "techniques" are completely bogus ; that's like someone analysing and naming different "techniques" of picking one's nose. Does that have a place in Wikipedia? Have you ever heard of a person who could discern, let alone name, different "techniques" of gesturing στ'αρχίδια μου? If we're going to have a serious article, this siliness will have to go, without deleting references to the gesture itself. If you disagree I'll be happy to hear out your arguments..62.1.21.50 11:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with the article and what it says, I also agree with you. However I think we should add more details to the section now it's shorter. Pictureuploader 12:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No need for more details, it says:

...The hand movement is done by driving the hand toward the genitalia. The exact way this is done depends on the mood of the practitioner and to whom they are addressing. This is also a part of Zamanfou. Most of the times these gestures are followed by an exclamation of satisfaction or contempt by saying "naaaaa" (meaning "Heeeere")...

I consider this enough too. Also, can someone check the Spanish spelling for me please? I think they also use "uevos" instead of "cohones"...:NikoSilver: 13:31, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Cojones is the word for testicles in mejican/latin american spanish, save for Argentina, so, your mileage may vary according to which part of the spanish-speaking world you're in.

!!!!!!! OMG, i can't believe this, we actually got CONCENT and people are actually working on fixing this article!!!! *faints* Project2501a 14:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can Zamanfou be charachterised as a meme?

i was looking over at Meme and i wondered if zamanfu can be categorised as such, instead of a "social phenomenon". It's late english no work, just a first idea. Goodnight folks. Project2501a 22:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

The editor informs us about 3 books-sources, but he does not make any inline citation, in order to convince us about the use of the sources he refers. For instance how did you utilise "Without the Greeks (Ερήμην των Ελλήνων)" of I. M. Panagiotopoulos (Ι. Μ. Παναγιωτόπουλος) within the article? And even these sources you mention, why don't you wikify them? There is a certain way to expose references and books, I think ...

I think that such inline references are important, since the article judges and evaluates events of the modern everyday Greek life and of the modern Greek attitude. In order to believe that this article is well-sourced and that its argumentation is correct, I believe that such citations are necessary. After all, I saw that there is a template about the "factual inaccuracy" of the article. Aren't you interested to do something in order to remove this template? Do the obvious thing: Citations and references.

For instance, terms such as ""αμπελοσοφισμό" of neo-Greeks" (which is wrong anyway: it is "αμπελοφιλοσοφισμός" not "αμπελοσοφισμός") are used without further explanation or sources. What is that? Explain? You are in an English encyclopedia! Why don't you provide an etymology?

And in the last paragraph, you speak for the under-utilisation of the conscripts. I may agree, but provide some sources for such a POV remark. Even with a citation, it remains POV, but wouldn't your argumentation be better, if you backed your POV with a citation?

I agree with another user that this looks like a blogger's article and not a Wikipedia article. Nevertheless, I believe that it could be an excellent Wikipedia article, if it was treated like one; something that the editors fail to do. At least, this is my opinion. --Yannismarou 09:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] συγχαρητηρια!

Θελω να πραγματικα συγχαρω αυτους που εγραψαν αυτο το αρθρο. Δεν εχουν ομως σκεφτει κατι: Ποιος ειναι ο σκοπος αυτου του αρθρου? Εγω πιστευω πως γραφτηκε περισσοτερο ως ενα αστειο. Στην πραγματικοτητα ομως το μονο που κανει ειναι να "ξεφτιλιζει" την Ελλαδα και εμας τους Ελληνες στο εξωτερικο και αποτελει την χαρα του καθε επικριτη της Ελλαδος: ειναι σαν να παραδεχομαστε εμμεσως πλην σαφως οτι ειμαστε ενας λαος που το μονο πραγμα που εχει στο κεφαλι του ειναι to frappe, τα φιλαρακια και της γκομενες και οτι χεστηκε για το τι συμβαινει στον υπολοιπο κοσμο. ΟΧΙ ΡΕ ΜΑΓΚΕΣ, ΔΕΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΕΤΣΙ. Δεν λεω πως το αρθρο δεν ανταποκρινεται στην πραγματικοτητα (υπαρχουν σημεια που οι συγγραφεις εχουν δικιο οπως το θεμα με την στρατιωτικη λουφα) αλλα ολο το υπολοιπο αφορα την μειοψηφια του λαου. Για παραδειγμα ενας χρηστης συνοψίζει πιο πανω:

1. 1. Το αρθρο φραφτηκε κυριως απο Ελληνες
2. 2. Σκοπος του δεν ειναι να κατηγορει την Ελλαδα αλλα να περιγραφει ενα ΥΠΑΡΚΤΟ φαινομενο
3. 3. Ο σταρχιδισμος ειναι μερος του τροπου ζωης του Νεοελληνα
4. ( Διοριστηκα; ας πανε οι αλλοι να πεθανουν )
5. ( η κυβερνηση πετσοκοβει τους μισθους ; Εγω πανω δευτερη δουλεια και ας πανε οι αλλοι να πεθανουν )
6. ( πεθαινουν παλαιστηνιοι; Λυπαμαι. Αντε τωρα που εξεφρασα τη λυπη μου παμε φια ενα φραπε!)
7. 4. Ολοι εσεις που αντιδρατε το κανετε γιατι θιγεται η αξιοπρεπεια της χωρας ή γιατι βλεπετε τον εαυτο σας μεσα στο αρθρο.
8. 5. Θελετε τη διαγραφη του; και εγω το ιδιο! ΤΟΤΕ ΠΑΛΕΨΤΕ ΕΝΑΝΤΙΑ ΣΤΟ ΖΜΦ ΣΤΗΝ ΙΔΙΑ ΤΗ ΖΩΗ ΣΑΣ! αν ολοι οι Ελληνες αποσχιστουν απο αυτο το ρευμα τοτε το φαινομενο θα παψει να υπαρχει το ιδιο και αυτο το αρθρο.

Σχολια για το παραπανω:

1. 1)Το θεμα με τους Δημ. Υπαλληλους ειναι γνωστο απο τις πρωτες μερες της απελευθερωσης και οντως αποτελει προβλημα για την κοινωνια μας. Το μονο σιγουρο ειναι οτι δυσκολα θα εκλειψει.
2. 2)Πετσοκομα μισθων: Ρε φιλε το πιστευεις αυτο που λες? Εδω ο κοσμος καιγεται και μου παρουσιαζει τον Ελληνα να εχει γραμμενο στα @@ του ακομα και θεματα που αφορουν τον ιδιο του τον μισθο. Θελω να μαθω απο που το συμπερανες αυτο.
3. 3)Θεματα σχετικα με σφαγες-πολεμους: Αυτο που γραφεις το κανει μονο το 4-5% του λαου. Δεν υπαρχει ελληνας που να ειναι τοσο αδιαφορος για τετοια θεματα εκτος αν εχει ετησιο εισοδημα 300,000 ευρω και σπιτι στο κολωνακι.
4. 4)ΝΑΙ ΡΕ ΦΙΛΕ ΘΙΓΕΤΑΙ Η ΑΞΙΟΠΡΕΠΕΙΑ ΜΟΥ. Ειμαστε πολυ εξυπνος λαος για να ξεφτιλιζουμε τους εαυτους μας στο εξωτερικο αλλα καποιοι γραφικοι σαν και αυτους που εγραψαν αυτο εδω το αρθρο επιμενουν στο βιολι τους και να γινονται η χαρα των επικριτων μας
5. 5)Διαγραφη: Ρε μαγκα δεν μενουν ολοι στο κολωνακι για να εχουν τετοια σταση ζωης. Δεν σε τιμαει καθολου ουτε εσενα ουτε ολους οσους θελουν αυτο το αρθρο. Δεν γινεται οι τρεντιδες και τα ψωνια να χαραχτιριζουν ΟΛΟΥΣ ΜΑΣ. ΓΙΑΥΤΟΝ ΤΟ ΛΟΓΟ ΤΟ ΑΡΘΡΟ ΠΡΕΠΕΙ ΝΑ ΣΒΗΣΤΕΙ ΟΣΟ ΠΙΟ ΣΥΝΤΟΜΑ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ.

Πιο πανω ενα κοριτσακι 14 χρονων απεδειξε οτι διαθετει περισσοτερο μυαλο απο οσους εγραψαν αυτο το αρθρο. Σας λυπαμε πραγματικα αν νομιζετε πως η Ελλας ειναι ετσι. Εκτος βεβαια αν ζητε σε εναν κοσμο σαν του "παρα πεντε" (απο ΤV) ή εχετε μονιμο τοπο κατοικιας το κολωνακι και τα Β.προαστεια και η μονη σας ασχολια ειναι τα κοσμικα events.

Δεν μπορουν 10 ψωνια να γραφουν ενα αρθρο blog το οποιο να δημοσιευεται σε εγκυκλοπαιδεια παγκοσμιου κυρους και εμβελειας και να απαιτουν να παραμεινει αυτο το ελεινο κατασκευασμα. ΣΒΗΣΤΕ ΤΟ οσο το δυνατον γρηγοροτερα γιατι ξεφτιλιζετε τους εαυτους σας και ολους τους υπολοιπους Ελληνες. --KaragouniS 12:25, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Φίλε Καραγκούνη. I have responded in your talk. Furthermore the intro sentence clearly mentions that it is a counterculture phenomenon (i.e. against social mainstream). Meaning: Greeks mostly do care, but those exceptions who do not, are called Zamanfoutistes. No harm in that. Really. •NikoSilver• 13:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Απο ο,τι βλεπω η συζητηση με περιεχει οποτε παιρνω το θαρρος να στηριξω λιγο της θεσεις μου.

• 1. Δεν εθιξα καποιο θεμα με τους δημοσιους υπαλληλους. Προσωπικα δεν εχω κατι εναντιον τους ουτε τους θεωρω "προβλημα"
• 2. Μισθοι: ΝΑΙ τοσυμπερασμα το εβγαλα απο προσωπικη εμπειρια. Δε μενω στο κολονακι ουτε το εχω δει ποτε γιατι ειμαι Σαλονικιος. Ουτε και στο Πανοραμα μενω. Αν δεν βαριεσαι να διαβαζεις μπορω να σου διηγηθω ΠΑΡΑ πολλες ιστοριες με εκπαιδευτικους που δουλευουν ΠΣΚ και αργιες ΜΕ ΤΙΣ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΕΣ τους για να τα φερουν βολτα ενω πορ εικοσαετιας δουλευε ο πατερας και ταιζε οικογενεια. Με χωρισμενες μητερες εργαζομενες που ΔΕΝ κανουν καν τον κοπο να ζητησουν διατροφη γιατι "που να μπλεκουν τωρα λες και θα βρουν τα δικια τους". Με συναδελφους που κοιτουσαν να καλοπιανουν το αφεντικο απο το να ζητουν τα δικια τους. Και με ενα σωματειο που με το ζορι εχει δεκα μελη ( απο τα 300 ) και πολλα αλλα.
• 3. ΝΑΙ ειμαστε εξυπνος λαος. Πες μου ΕΣΥ τωρα εναν ΧΑΖΟ λαο!
• 4. Το κοριτσακι πιο εξυπνο απο μενα? ισως. ποτε δεν ειπα οτι ειμαι εξυπνος. Εσυ ομως εισαι. Αφου μπορεσες και μετρησες το IQ μου (και το δικο της) βασει μιας παραγραφου εισαι ο Στηβεν Χωκιν.
• 5. Αντιπολεμικο κλιμα: Ιρακ-Αφγανισταν. Ημουν παντου Διαδηλωσεις συγκεντρωσεις συλλαλητηρια πορειες. Στη Θεσσαλονικη τουλαχιστον (για αλλες πολεις δεν ξερω) αυτοι που καθονταν στα μπαλκονια και κοιταζαν ηταν πιο πολλοι απο αυτους που συμμετειχαν. Και αυτοι που δεν εκαναν ΚΑΝ τον κοπο να βγουν στα μπαλκονια γιατι ηθελαν να δουν τον Μικρουτσικο ηταν ακομα περισσοτεροι.
• 6. Θιγεσαι; Αν δεν υπαγεσαι στο ρευμα ΖΜΦ δεν εχεις λογο να θιγεσαι ειναι για αλλους Ελληνες.
• 7. Οι επικριτες μας; Οποιοι και αν ειναι πραγματικα πιστευω το ΕΛΛΑΝΤΑ εχει πολλα σοβαροτερα προβληματα απο τους εξωτερικους κουτσομποληδες. Ας λυσουμε προβληαματα ανεργειας φτωχειας υγειας παιδειας και οσο για τους τυχον επικριτες: ΖΑΜΑΝ-ΦΟΥ ! (εδω πραγματικα στα @@ μου!)
• 8. Ολα τα ψωνια που πληρωνουν 10 ευρω εισοδο για να μπουν σε ενα κωλοκλαμπ στα λαδαδικα ειναι μια ΠΑΡΑ πολυ σεβαστη πλειοψηφια πιστεψε με και δεν κατοικουν στο Πανοραμα!
• 9. Ξεφτιλιζουμε τους Ελληνες: Αν καποιος σου πει τα ελαττωματα σου δεν σε ξεφτιλιζει μαλλον προς το αντιθετο κινειται. Τωρα αν η σελιδα διαβαζεται και απο ξενους εδω θα πω ΖΑΜΑΝ-ΦΟΥ ! Το τελευταιο που με νοιαζει αναφορικα με τη χωρα μου ειναι η γνωμη του καθε τουριστα. Πρεπει επιτελους να ξεκολησουμε απο αυτην την νοοτροπια και να κοιταξουμε αν αρεσει ΣΕ ΕΜΑΣ η χωρα μας
• 10. Σ'χωρα την αγενεια μου. Φταιει που ειμαι πιο χαζος απο 14-χρονο κοριτσι.

user:panosfidis

[edit] Τι ειναι Ελληνες;

1. Mαγκες πλεον μετα τις θεωριες του αριστοτελη σχετικα με τον τροπο ζωης-συμπεριφορας εχουμε και μια νεα προσεγγιση. Αυτη του PanosFidis. Η οποια λεει:
2. Το ζαμανφου ειναι οι Ελληνες. Ο Ελληνας ειναι πρωτογνωρο φαινομενο στα διεθνη χρονικα. Ειτε γινει πολεμος διπλα του ειτε στο αφγανισταν ο ελληνας τον εχει γραμμενο στα @@ του. Χεστηκε για τα παιδακια που πεθαινουν και για τις γυναικες που βιαζονται. Δεν τον αγγιζουν οι πολεμοι μιας και τα γκομενακια και οι φιλοι ειναι πολυ πιο σημαντικα απο τις σφαγες. Ο Ελληνας το μονο που θελει ειναι να παει μπουζουκια και να δει τατιανοχρηστινες στις 3.00 μμ. Επισης τον νοιαζει να φοραει παπουτσακι converse η reef, παντελονι diesel jean και μπλουζα lacoste και η αλβανεζα να του τα πλενει και να του μαγειρευει. Τον ενδιαφερει να γινει διασημος με καθε κοστος (reality ξεφτιλοσοου) η να γινει τραγουδιστης σε σκυλαδικο. Θελει μισθο 15,000 ευρω το μηνα και σπιτι σε ακριβη συνοικια (αμα δεν τα εχει περνει ενα δανειο και χανει και αυτα που εχει). Δεν μπλεκει με τα δικαστηρια γιατι δεν αξιζει τον κοπο (aka γραφειοκρατια). Ιδιαιτερα αμα ειναι απο Β.Ελλαδα θα εχει μια ιδιαιτερη "αγαπη" στην Αθηνα (βλεπε πανο "Ελληνες ειστε και φενεστε"). Η Ελλαδα εχει 11.000.000 ατομα πληθυσμο αλλα 500,000 - 1,000,000 που αγαπουν και ζουν συμφωνα με το ζαμανφου θελουν να πεισουν ολους οτι ετσι ειναι οι Ελληνες.
3. συμπερασμα : Ρε συ panosfidis τα πιστευεις αυτα που λες? Γιατι αμα νομιζεις οτι ολοι οι Ελληνες ειναι σαν αυτο το χαος που μας λες, τοτε φιλε εισαι τελειως εκτος. Εκτος αν εχει μαθει να ζεις ετσι και το γουσταρεις, οποτε δεν τιθεται θεμα. Ενα εχω να σου πω: Παρε ανοιξε κανα βιβλιο ιστοριας γιατι τοχεις χασει τελειως το θεμα. ΚΑΙ ΝΑΙ, ΤΟ ΚΟΡΙΤΣΑΚΙ ΕΧΕΙ ΠΕΡΙΣΣΟΤΕΡΗ ΩΡΙΜΟΤΗΤΑ ΑΠΟ ΕΣΕΝΑ. Με κατι τετοιες μπουρδες εχουμε γινει ο περιγελος των ξενων, ασχετα αν και αυτοι τα ιδια σκ@τ@ ειναι. Κριμα σε οσουν ζουν ετσι γιατι ειναι ο ορισμος του αξιοθρηνητου. ΤΟ ΛΕΩ ΚΑΙ ΘΑ ΤΟ ΞΑΝΑΠΩ: ΣΒΗΣΤΕ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΤΗΝ ΜΠΟΥΡΔΑ ΠΡΙΝ ΜΑΣ ΔΕΙΞΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΤΟ CNN ΓΙΑΥΤΟ

--KaragouniS 20:05 17 September 2006

Καραγκούνη:

Μια και δε βλεπω αλλους να συμμετεχουν απευθυνομαι ευθεως σε σενα. Δεν ξερω αν ζεις σε καποια ολη της απολυτης συνειδητοποιησης οπου ο λαος δεν ανεχεται το δουλεμα ο καθενας απαιτει τα δικια του και οι μαζικες διαδικασιες προχωρανε. Εστω. Για τις επομενες δυο γραμμες θα παω με τα νερα σου. Μιλησες για ενα ρευμα 500.000-1.000.000 ατομων. Αν ηταν κομμα θα επαιρνε 20 βουλευτες και βαλε. ΕΙΝΑΙ ΑΝΑΞΙΟ ΑΝΑΦΟΡΑΣ ? ΠΡΕΠΕΙ ΝΑ ΣΒΗΣΤΕΙ ???

Τωρα αφηνω τα νερα σου και ερχομαι στα δικα μου. Πιστεψε με εχω λογους να θεωρω πως το ρευμα εχει πιο πολλους οπαδους. Θεσσαλονικη: Πολη 1.500.000 αν βαλεις φοιτητες και αλλοδαπους χωρις χαρτια ειναι και περισσοτεροι.

• 1. το 60% ψηφιζει καποιον που υποσχεται Μετρο-υποθαλασσια αρτηρια-υπεργεια διαβαση. Τον πιστευουν? ΟΧΙ ! αυτα τα λεει απο τον καιρο του Κουβελα! Πριν απο τον Κοσμοπουλο! Και ομως κερδιζει. Γιατι? Γιατι ο θειος του ξαδερφου του εγγονου ειναι γνωστος μου και ψαρευω συμβαση ως δημοτικος υπαλληλος.
• 2. Εδω η παιδεια χανεται φραπεδες αρμενιζουν. Ενω τα πτυχια των φοιτητων μεταμορφωνονται σε λαδοκολες εβλεπες πιο πολλους στις καφετεριες παρα στις πορειες. Το πιστευεις οτι εγινε και επιτροπη σπασιματος καταληψεων απο αυτους που απλα ηθελαν να παρουν τα πτυχια τους και μετα γαια πυρι μειχθητω?
• 3. Συνδικατα. Αστα να πανε τα ανεφερα και πιο πανω. Για εκτος ΘΣΝ δεν ειμαι ο αρμοδιος να κανω λογο.

εννοειται πως ΠΟΤΕ δεν ειπα ετσι ειναι ο Ελληνας. αλλα ΝΑΙ ενα ρευμα ελληνων ΕΙΝΑΙ ετσι και βγαζει παραπανω απο 20 βουλευτες. Δεω θελω να αποδειξω κατι σχετικα με το πως ειναι οι Ελληνες (υποθετω πως ειναι οπως ολοι οι αλλοι λαοι) και σιγουρα αντιστοιχο ρευμα υπαρχει και σε αλλες χωρες (και ΠΡΕΠΕΙ να περιγραφει). Αλλα ασ μην σκεπαζουμε το δικο μας μονο και μονο επειδη ειναι δικο μας. Και αν οι ξενοι γελανε μαζι μας ας κοιτανε τα χαλια τους. Αν μας δειξει το CNN ΖΑΜΑΝ-ΦΟΥ! Στ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ μας. αυτο μας μαρανε. Αν ειναι δυνατον να αφησουμε το CNN και τους ξενους να οριζου τι θα λεμε και τι οχι. Ελεος.

user:Panosfidis

Ο Γεροντας Φιδης +εBLOGισον+ με κάλυψε 100% στην απάντηση του. Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 00:18, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Τωρα μιλας σωστα

Το παραπανω ποστ του panosfidis συνοψίζει πραγματικα το τι ειναι ενα μεγαλο κομματι της Ελλαδας. Δυστηχως αυτη ειναι πλεον η αληθεια και οφειλω να σε παραδεχτω για αυτες σου τις θεσεις. Προτεινω να τοιχοκολληθει σε καθε δημοσια υπηρεσια για να θυμομαστε και ποιοι καταντησαμε (ή μας καταντησαν;). Αλλα συνεχιζω να υποστηριζω πως δεν πρεπει να δινουμε βορα στους ξενους ωστε αυτοι να εκτοξευουν χολη πανω μας (κατι το οποιο ηταν ανεκαθεν η αγαπημενη τους συνηθεια). Δεν ειπα να κανουμε οτι μας λενε ( ΑΝ ΕΙΝΑΙ ΔΥΝΑΤΟΝ ΔΛΔ ΝΑ ΚΑΝΟΥΜΕ ΟΤΙ ΘΕΛΟΥΝΕ ΤΑ ΞΕΝΟΥΡΙΑ) αλλα πρεπει να τους αποδειξουμε οτι ειμαστε ανωτεροι τους. Ωραιος πανο, μου απεδειξες οτι εκανα λαθος σε μερικα πραματα (ανθρωπος ειμαι και εγω :P). Ελπιζω στο μελλον να διορθωθουν πολλα απο αυτα που περιγραψαμε παραπανω :)

--KaragouniS 18 Sept. 2006 6.48pm UTC

• (κατι το οποιο ηταν ανεκαθεν η αγαπημενη τους συνηθεια)
• αλλα πρεπει να τους αποδειξουμε οτι ειμαστε ανωτεροι τους.

+ΕΛβλογησον+ ο Προφήτας Λιακουρας το έχει κατορθώσει πριν απο εσένα. Κοιμήσου ήσυχος, στην Θεσσαλονίκη εκλέγεται ο Κομμουνιστής και Πατριώτης, στο ανσανσέρ σφάζουν αρνιά και στο ρετιρέ κριάρια, και στην Αθήνα οι Χρυσαυγούλιδες κόβους βόλτες με το έτσι θέλω. Ο Καιρόc Γαρ Εγγυc, θα ξυπνήσει η Κόκκινη Κυλότα και μετά θα τρώμε με Αντιβαρυτικά κουτάλια ΤΕΣΛΑ, Αμήν, λέγω, υμήν. Πάρε σε παρακαλώ κανένα πακέτο να διαβάσεις και να θυμάσαι, ΜΑΣ ΟΧΘΡΕΥΟΝΤΑΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΙ ΜΑΟΡΟΙ ΜΑΖΙ ΜΕ ΤΗ ΛΕΥΚΗ ΑΔΕΡΦΟΤΗΤΑ.

Σοβαρά τώρα, ποιος "ξένος" δίνει .5 ευρο για πάρτη μας, όπου δεν εμπλεκόμαστε σε λεφτά (βλέπε ευροπαϊκή επιτήρηση της ελλάδας); Και επιπλέων γιατί επικεντρώνεις στο τι νομίζουν οι άλλοι για σένα και όχι γιατί ο μισθός σου συγκρίνεται με "τον μέσο ευρωπαϊκο" και όχι με το 20% των μεγαλύτερων Ευρωπαικών μισθών(ωραίό κόλπο αυτό); Γιατί δεν επικεντώνεσαι στο ότι ο Χοντρός λέει ψέματα και ο μέσος πολίτης τον πιστεύει; :)) θα σταματήσω εδώ γιατί δεν γουστάρω να γίνομαι ριτορίσκος. Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 00:42, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Θελω να ριξω μερικα στοιχεια στο τραπεζι.

• 1. Δες στο History. ΠΟΤΕ δεν συμμετειχα με ΚΑΝΕΝΑ τροπο στην κατασκευη αυτης της σελιδας. Ξεκινησε το 2004 απο καποιον user:Arys ο οποιος φαινεται να σταματησε να ασχολειται. Δεν συμμετειχα μια και δεν εχω ιδιαιτερες γνωσεις στο θεμα (απλα παρατηρω και διαπιστωνω οτι τα φαινομενα που περιγραφονται στεκουν) και δεν θεωρω τον εαυτο μου αρμοδιο ωστε να συμβαλλω.
• 2. Αφου κάπου συμφωνουμε θα πει οτι και εσυ βρισκεις ΚΑΠΟΥ αληθεια μεσα σε αυτο το κειμενο. Κρατα την αλήθεια και αλλαξε το ψεμα. (Δεν ειμαι ο αρμοδιος να σε εξουσιοδοτησω αλλα δεν βλεπω και κανεναν αλλον να νοιαζεται). Περιεγραψε εσυ το ΥΠΑΡΚΤΟ φαινομενο με στοιχεια που εσυ πιστευεις οτι στεκουν.
• 3. Αν βλεπεις οτι κατι δεν ισχυει ΣΒΗΣΤΟ. ( το πολυ πολυ καποιος να το ξαναγραψει)
• 4. Δες τη σελιδα του user:Project2501a εχει ενδιαφεροντα στοιχει για την ερευνα σου.
• 5. Τον τελευταιο λογο βεβαια τον εχει αυτος ο Αρης ο οποιος που εξαφανιστηκε κανεις δεν ξερει. Αν ηταν εδςω θα μας ελεγε γιατι το εγραψε και ποιον σκοπο εξυπηρετει.
• 6. Καλη δουλεια.

user:panosfidis

First of all, this is an English Wikipedia and not a Greek forum to make lectures each other in Greek. We all speak Greek, but the encyclopedia is read by all the world. Hence, these discussions should be written in English, so that everybody can follow them. I've also commented on the article and I've pointed out its major flaws. I believe that in some points it is unscientific and uncyclopedic. But this does not mean that it is useless. It describes a whole cultural phainomenon and it is useful, but it needs work and documentation. I donot care if this article is good or bad for the Greeks. I just care if it is accurate or not. If you think it is inaccurate, then fight it, but with arguments and not sentimental outbursts. If you like this article, then work on it and improve it. The easiest thing for me would be to fight this article and ask for its deletion, since a few months ago I had a personal qualm with Project2501a. But, even if a new vote for its deletion starts, I'll vote NO. We need this article. But we also need to improve it.--Yannismarou 14:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for da Greek but:

• 1 my English sucks.
• 2 The artickle IS in english
• 3 this is a talk page between editors all editors ARE Greek so this is not a big problem

εννοω οτι δεν στερειται τιποτα ο τυχαιος αναγνωστης αν δεν διαβασει τη σελιδα διαλογου.Εδω εχει γνωμες συντακτων οχι επιστημονικες γνωσεις.

Ναι αλλά σπάνια ο τυχαίος ανγνώστης θα μπει στη σελίδα διαλόγου. Συνήθως, θα μπει κάποιος λιγότερο "τυχαίος" αναγνώστης, που θα θέλει να εμβαθύνει στο θέμα και, επ'ευκαιρία, να εισφέρει στην επίλυση της όποιας διαφωνίας. Αυτός ο "λιγότερο τυχαίος αναγνώστης" μπορεί να είναι και μη Έλληνας. Γιατί να στερηθούμε τη συνεισφορά του; Γι'αυτό, καλό θα είναι να αποφεύγονται οι εκτενείς συζητήσεις στα ελληνικά, εκτός από πολύ περιορισμένα σχόλια, που όντως δε θα ήταν καλό να βγουν παραέξω, για να μη γίνουμε "βούκινο".--Yannismarou 11:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep it to English, eh? I can't follow half of what's being said; I might not be Greek or an editor but I'm still interested in the discussion. If your English isn't very good, then head on over to the Greek wikipedia.203.206.249.161 16:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

then use this online translator and don't tell us what to do ---> http://babelfish.altavista.com/

--KaragouniS 26 October 2006

[edit] Original research and weasel wording with a clear agenda

"a counterculture phenomenon" - Original research - there is no study that proves such a phenomenon on the Greek society. The entire argument under the background section is pure original research. Aside from using weasel wording ("Older Greek people would say [...] but others can claim") the author seems to be having an agenta against the Greek army ("As the conscripts are under-utilised in menial jobs, they quickly learn the ways of loufa, since the Greek army offers no incentives for doing a good job") and he or she utterly fails to understand that Wikipedia is a real encyclopedia.

But then he ~did~ write that Wikipedia is "not an encyclopedia".

--Vyx 18:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I have added fact request tags to unreferenced, original research, arguments and weasel words. I don't believe there are verifiable sources to prove them, at least not for the core claims, but I'll wait one week at least to see updates. After that, I'll proceed to remove/rephrase the unproven elements.

--Vyx 09:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)