Talk:Zhuang language

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The article says that was the name of two Tai languages, one in China and one in Vietnam. I've never heard of a language called Zhuang being spoken in Vietnam. The Tày and Nùng of Vietnam live just across the border and I've read that Nùng is similar to Zhuang (but many Tai languages are similar); there is a minority called Bố Y - they are Bouyei who came from China, some of them in Vietnam (in Lào Cai) even don't speak Bouyei but Chinese.

The terms used - Northern Zhuang and Southern Zhuang - seem rather confusing to me. Does "Northern Zhuang" include Bouyei? And what is actually "Southern Zhuang"? Babelfisch, June 14th, 2004

I think that person wrote it from Ethnologue.com, which has that division of N & S and spoke Zhuang spoken in China & Vietnam. The person probably meant "one language spoken in two countries" not "2 languages". --Menchi 10:24, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Cuengh 2 Zhuang siniform script 3 Zhuang language 4 Zhuang

[edit] Cuengh

So this is supposedly the same language as (Cuengh), of lang-code za: , at least according to the redir there and the main page of za.wikiquote.org ... this should be addressed in the article. +sj+

Yeah, it is. - Mustafaa 21:21, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Zhuang siniform script

I think this page should say something more of the old siniform script of the Zhuang, or at least a source should be given for the statement. This is important stuff. --149.159.2.216 02:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

A link has now been added to Zhuang logograms which introduces the old sinoform script.Johnkn63 05:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zhuang language

(Discussion moved from my talk page --Amir E. Aharoni 08:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC))

Shalom Amire,

I notice that you made some commments about references to some changes I made to the Zhuang language page to do with tone numbers. Noting that you mother tongue is Russian you should be in a better position than myself to comment on the Cyrillic based script used for Zhuang, and how many of the letters used are Cryllic, and how many are unique to Zhuang.

I have posted a fuller reply on User talk:Babelfisch.

Please delete this message when it is no longer useful and just taking up space.

Johnkn63 02:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

As to the language Zhuang it is still spoken by over 10 million people - a long way from being extinct. Chinese however is the language used in the classroom. The romanized form is used for officail documents, it is one of the five officail languages of China and so all national laws must be translated in this. The writing system using Chinese characters has never been standardised, and is mainly used for writing Zhaung follk songs. Children are often raised by grand-parents, and so Zhuang is still to the mother tongue for most Zhuang children to this day. Johnkn63 03:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I was unable to post this on Babalfisch's talk page -- so I will put it here as I know he will look here

Hi again

Re the ancient Zhaung dictionary 'contains 4,900 characters and more than 10,000 variants' more accurate would be 'has 4,900 enteries, and contains more than 10,000 different characters in all' (This is the first sentance of the introduction to the dictionary it says 10,700 and 4918.) Using an approximation here is good as neither of these figures is accurate, especially the 10,700 -- there may not even be 10,000 different characters in the dictionary -- unless one adds in the characters included in the example sentances but not in the entries themselves.

Re the article itself it would be good if we could agree on a wording that we are both happy with, it would not be productive for things to be changed back and forth again and again. I am more than happy to drop the comment about the use numbers for tones.

(1) Even a small change from 'Zhuang had been written with logographs ' to 'Zhuang has been written with logographs' would be clearer, the sawndip writing system was never official and continues to be used to this day in much the way it always was and the link is more relevant. Or it could be worded so that links to both exist 'Zhuang has been written with logographs, sometimes called sawndip'.

(2) Describing the 1957 as special letters is not very exact it is a wikipedia policy to be as exact as possible, most of the 'special letters' are Cyrillic letters, and two of the vowels are common ipa symbols.

There is enough to say on the Zhuang language to make several pages, there is not much wikipedia material on Zhuang, a collective effort to improve this is best.

Yours sincerely Johnkn63 10:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Re User talk:Babelfisch my problem with viewing is that the page only opens as far as the end of point 9. It is point 10 that seems to be the cause, a rather self fulfilling prophercy. No points given for guessing where I am trying to open from . My talk page is open the thread could be moved to there if that helps. Johnkn63 23:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm in Beijing and I have serious problems to access and edit Wikipedia at the moment. My impression is that they've changed the censorship mechanism three days ago, and my favorite workaround doesn't work any more. I wonder if Wikipedia users elsewhere are aware that a quarter of the world doesn't have unrestricted access to Wikipedia. This is the comment I've posted on my talk page:

You wrote: "For a reference see Cyrillic alphabet, this is definitely correct. The writting system was designed by Russian nad Chinese linguists in the 1950's and so they naturally used a Cyrillic alphabet."

Sorry, this is not correct. Have a look at the section on writing systems in the article on the Zhuang language: The 1957 Zhuang alphabet consists of 18 Latin letters (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, k, l, m, n, o, r, s, v and y) plus 10 non-Latin letters. Of the non-Latin letters, ƽ is definitely not Cyrillic; it marks the 5th tone and looks like a number 5. The letters з, ч and ƅ look like Cyrillic letters, but don't have their sound values; they mark the 3rd, 4th and 6th tones and also look a bit like numbers 3, 4 and 6. The letter ƨ is not Cyrillic; it marks the 2nd tone and could actually be derived from a number 2. The letter ƌ is not cyrillic either. The letter ƃ looks a bit like the cyrillic Ƃ, but it seems more logic that ƃ was derived from b and ƌ from d. The letters ə and ŋ look like IPA letters; both have also been used in both Latin and Cyrillic orthographies of many languages in the Soviet Union, as well as in the Latin orthographies of some minority languages—in Xinjiang and elsewhere—in China. The letter ɯ looks a bit like the Cyrillic ш, but it doesn't have it's sound value.

Conclusion: It is a Latin alphabet with 10 extra letters; 5 of them are derived from numbers, 3 from Latin letters and 2 from some phonetic alphabet. Five of the extra letters look a bit like Cyrillic letters, but not a single one has the sound value of the Cyrillic letter it looks like. (The result actually reminds me of the African reference alphabet which was created much later, and other attempts to create new written languages.)

I agree that we have to be precise; you should check your sources once more. I really recommend the book by Zhou Minglang. (If you happen to be in Beijing, you can find it in the National Library.)

Maybe this discussion should be continued at the talk page of the article in question. —Babelfisch 02:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I too have similar problmes assessing wikipedia -- mentioning where one is, makes blocking easier. The exact rationale behind the 1957 writing system is complex, there is surely a better wording than 'strange letters', I will let you decide . If Minglang suggests that the character based writing system is no longer used he is wrong. Please see talk:Zhuang for more details. To be accurate the article shoudld reflect this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnkn63 (talk • contribs) 14:13, 10 November 2006.

It doesn't say "strange letters", but "special letters". Maybe they should be listed in the text, or we can find another way to phrase that sentence. —Babelfisch 07:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zhuang

(Discussion moved from my talk page. --Amir E. Aharoni 08:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC) )

Hi Babelfisch,

I saw that you corrected the part about tone-letters in Zhuang. Do you know any more info about this language? The article used to say that it is assimilated by Mandarin and on the way to extinction; I marked it as unsourced, and then someone removed it, but actually it may be true. If you can add something to subject, it will be most helpful. --Amir E. Aharoni 07:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a list of books I've read to the article on the Zhuang language. Having extensively travelled in Guangxi, I also have the impression that Zhuang is on the way to extinction, but at the moment I can't quote any sources that would conform to Wikipedia policies. —Babelfisch 08:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello The list of references is very good. Many talk about the writing system based on Chinese charcters. Therefore the link to [[Zhuang logogram]s is valuable, as it is the only wikipedia article on these. The difference in terminology logogram vs logograph is a little unsightly, if they were changed to match that would read better.

The information put in re tone-letters had two parts to it, firstly that the change in 1986 was from a Cyrillic alphabet to an English or Latin alphabet. For a reference see Cyrillic alphabet, this is definitely correct. The writting system was designed by Russian nad Chinese linguists in the 1950's and so they naturally used a Cyrillic alphabet. Second the change from numbers to letters, exact wording here might be in questionable in the 1957 Cyrillic Zhuang the second to sixth tones are marked by final letters that look like 2,3,4,5 and 6 respectively, the similarity is very close in the 1957 system, these in 1986 were changed to z,j,x,q, and h of which look a little like 2,3,4,5, and 6. z,j,x, and q only represent tones, h can also represent sounds. It is much clearer to talk about the Cyrillic alphabet than about "a Latin alphabet with some special letters". The comment about tone numbers could be left out as the visual data already shows this.

A lot of work has gone into this page, a link to Zhuang logogram and a clear mention of the Cyrillic alphabet would add to it. Added by Johnkn63. Nov 8 10.01 (Chinese time)

PS I have edited this -- however it seems there shouls be a way to post a reply I would be grateful to know how to post replies in the normal way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Johnkn63 (talk • contribs) 10:07, 8 November 2006.

Hi again

Re the ancient Zhaung dictionary 'contains 4,900 characters and more than 10,000 variants' more accurate would be 'has 4,900 enteries, and contains more than 10,000 different characters in all' (This is the first sentance of the introduction to the dictionary it says 10,700 and 4918.) Using an approximation here is good as neither of these figures is accurate, especially the 10,700 -- there may not even be 10,000 different characters in the dictionary -- unless one adds in the characters included in the example sentances but not in the entries themselves.

Re the article itself it would be good if we could agree on a wording that we are both happy with, it would not be productive for things to be changed back and forth again and again. I am more than happy to drop the comment about the use numbers for tones.

(1) Even a small change from 'Zhuang had been written with logographs ' to 'Zhuang has been written with logographs' would be clearer, the sawndip writing system was never official and continues to be used to this day in much the way it always was and the link is more relevant. Or it could be worded so that links to both exist 'Zhuang has been written with logographs, sometimes called sawndip'.

(2) Describing the 1957 as special letters is not very exact it is a wikipedia policy to be as exact as possible, most of the 'special letters' are Cyrillic letters, and two of the vowels are common ipa symbols.

There is enough to say on the Zhuang language to make several pages, there is not much wikipedia material on Zhuang, a collective effort to improve this is best.

Yours sincerely Johnkn63 10:45, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: "For a reference see Cyrillic alphabet, this is definitely correct. The writting system was designed by Russian nad Chinese linguists in the 1950's and so they naturally used a Cyrillic alphabet."

Sorry, this is not correct. Have a look at the section on writing systems in the article on the Zhuang language: The 1957 Zhuang alphabet consists of 18 Latin letters (a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, k, l, m, n, o, r, s, v and y) plus 10 non-Latin letters. Of the non-Latin letters, ƽ is definitely not Cyrillic; it marks the 5th tone and looks like a number 5. The letters з, ч and ƅ look like Cyrillic letters, but don't have their sound values; they mark the 3rd, 4th and 6th tones and also look a bit like numbers 3, 4 and 6. The letter ƨ is not Cyrillic; it marks the 2nd tone and could actually be derived from a number 2. The letter ƌ is not cyrillic either. The letter ƃ looks a bit like the cyrillic Ƃ, but it seems more logic that ƃ was derived from b and ƌ from d. The letters ə and ŋ look like IPA letters; both have also been used in both Latin and Cyrillic orthographies of many languages in the Soviet Union, as well as in the Latin orthographies of some minority languages—in Xinjiang and elsewhere—in China. The letter ɯ looks a bit like the Cyrillic ш, but it doesn't have it's sound value.

Conclusion: It is a Latin alphabet with 10 extra letters; 5 of them are derived from numbers, 3 from Latin letters and 2 from some phonetic alphabet. Five of the extra letters look a bit like Cyrillic letters, but not a single one has the sound value of the Cyrillic letter it looks like. (The result actually reminds me of the African reference alphabet which was created much later, and other attempts to create new written languages.)

I agree that we have to be precise; you should check your sources once more. I really recommend the book by Zhou Minglang. (If you happen to be in Beijing, you can find it in the National Library.)

Maybe this discussion should be continued at the talk page of the article in question. —Babelfisch 02:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)