Talk:Éire

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Contents 1 older entries 2 Title 3 Terminology used by the British media 4 Caption 5 A grammatical question 6 Éire as the Irish for 'Ireland' and other comments 7 Poll: Ireland article titles 8 Gaining Irish citizenship 9 Etymology of Éire 10 grammar in discussion 11 irish link

[edit] older entries

I have always wondered how Éire is pronounced in English phonetics. Is it air? Please could you include this in the article? Thank you very much. Very good article.

[edit] Title

This is a very odd title for an article - any reason why this text cannot be woven into Republic of Ireland or History of Ireland or something? Incidentally - according to several sources cited at Talk:Republic of Ireland, the official name of the country is not now "Republic of Ireland", but simply "Ireland" - when did the change back take place? --Camembert

OK, my questions have been answered in various ways (both in the article and in non-public communication). Thanks all. --Camembert

---

I removed the sentence regarding Éire being adopted with regard to the whole island. Because Bunreacht na hÉireann mentioned two entities in Articles 2 & 3, and one 'claimed' 32 counties while the other confirmed rule over 26, it is complicated to link Éire directly to 32. (de Valera for example sometimes associated it with the 'state', and the state was usually described it as referring to the 26 counties; other times he used Éire as referring to the 32 counties. Typical of deV to make things complex!!!) it is a complex question. I'd actually agree with the line, but it is too complicated to try to explain to international readers.

I've removed the word 'British' from before the Crown. In strict law, the British Crown ceased to have a role in Ireland in 1928 with the Royal Titles Act. Technically it was the Irish Crown worn by a British monarch, because after 1928 the Crown was exclusively advised on its role in Ireland by the Irish government with the British government being excluded. Hence the King as 'King of Ireland' signing international treaties for Ireland, under advice from Dublin; the exclusion of British ministers from contacts between His Majesty's Government in the Irish Free State and the King, and the Irish government's exclusive role in the selection of the second and third governors-general of the Irish Free State. (They were able to influence the choice of the first, but technically Tim Healy was the choice of the British government.) JTD 22:20 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Regarding the removal of the following (italicised)

Since 1949, the term Republic of Ireland has generally been used in preference to Éire, which when used by the British media, is often accompanied by a rather 'condescending' tone.

It is not a POV but a widely acknowledged fact. When the new name was adopted in 1937, almost the entire world used 'Ireland' but Britain opted for the gaelic Éire, arguing that 'Ireland' implied the island of Ireland and that Éire could be used as code for the twenty-six county state. However when in 1949 the description Republic of Ireland replaced Éire in general usage, Éire (or occasionally the completely made up term Irish Republic) continued to be used by right wing members of the Conservative Party and by the right wing press in Britain. Today Éire is almost unused, with the exception of right wing anti-Irish newspapers like the Daily Telegraph', the '"Daily Mail and newspapers from the Express Newspapers group. (The London Times has abandoned general usage and only use it at a time of major Anglo-Irish controversy.) The tone of their usage of the word has been such that the word's usage at all has been actively abandoned by everyone else. (Even using the word on wiki led me to be accused of being anti-Irish; I had to explain to five different users, 2 Irish, 1 British and 2 American, that far from being anti-Irish I am Irish myself, and was simply mentioning it in the context of Irish nomenclature and the 1937 constitution.) The notoriously tactless Duke of Edinburgh had to be formally advised by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office not under any circumstances to call Ireland Éire such was its right wing anti-Irish meaning, thanks to its usage by right wing anti-Irish publications.

While the word carried no negative connotations when first coined constitutionally in 1937 decades of later usage by the right wing in Britain and by some extreme unionists in Northern Ireland has discredited it. During the most recent world cup one right wing daily newspaper in Britain managed to write an entire article without using the words Republic of Ireland to describe the football team, even though that is their name, the RoI football team. Instead they used the "Éire soccer team. The article was littered with terminology and clichés (eg, 'drunken Micks', 'boozing paddies') that were criticised even by other British media outlets and which resulted in complaints over rascist stereotypes. (There was talk of a complaints to the Press Complaints Commission, but I don't know if they actually were made in the end.) That anti-Irish elements used Éire exclusively in anti-Irish (or anti-Éire) articles and commentaries has severely discoloured the word's implied meaning. It is noticeable that as different newspaper groups in the UK have launched Irish editions, the very first thing to change is the abandonment of the word Éire from usage because they themselves recognise the manner of its previous usage and the fact as it result it is now seen as an offensive anti-Irish term. Instead, The Republic, The Republic of Ireland or Ireland is used, never Éire. FearÉIREANN 03:21 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure that an article on Ireland is an appropriate place for a discussion of the failings of sections of the English media. I'm not convinced that "anti-Irish" is a fair characterisation of even the Daily Mail, let alone the Telegraph. But that's hardly the main point.

I appreciate that there are many in Ireland and elsewhere who are highly sensitive about precise terminology - Republic of Ireland not Irish Republic, Northern Ireland not North of Ireland (or vice versa, according to individual politics), Ireland not Eire, and so on. It is helpful to explain the differences, and the connotations of some of these terms. But characterisation of the press of a neighbouring country is not, in my view, a helpful contribution to the debate. It makes the article read (and I'm not trying to cause offense to anyone) too much like an English-bashing exercise, or an anti-gutter-press rant, which detracts from the point of the article, and causes needless antagonism. It cannot help the credibility of the Wikipedia, and certainly does not promote a neutral tone.

...encyclopedic writing should steer clear of taking any particular stance other than the stance of the neutral point of view... and an assertion that particular papers in the country next door are "Anti-Irish" is hardly neutral, whether or not any particular individual considers it to be widely acknowledged or a fact.

--Paul July 4, 2003

Firstly the article was not intended in any way to be a 'Brit-bashing' exercise; I have spent all my time on wiki removing such references, leading to the accusation that I am a "Tory apologist" by a number of people. (See my attempts to stop the Irish Potato Famine being turned into an antl-British rant.) As to the widely accepted belief that the Telegraph and Mail and some other of the 'Tory Press' are anti-Irish, they have been the subject of a large number of complaints from not just Irish people but British politicians and also academic studies which supported the hypothesis. So conscious is are the newspaper groups of the nature of their content that when they associate with Irish newspapers (such as the recently taken over Ireland on Sunday) or Irish editions of their British papers they deliberately remove many of their British columns; one famously asked "wouldn't you rather be a pig than be Irish?" which resulted in an outcry not just in Ireland but in Britain and which led to an apology from the then columnist, former Labour MP Robert Kilroy Silk who wrote the column which said that. FearÉIREANN 21:34 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Not famous enough to have come to my attention (although that doesn't mean anything of course). I thought Robert Kilroy Silk's mother was Irish. Mintguy 09:07 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

---

The second to last paragraph is a bit confusing. Who said what and when? Daniel Quinlan 06:48 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology used by the British media

BBC regularly continue to use the term "Irish Republic", it drives me up the wall! They also insist on having news categories of England regions, Scotland, Wales and "Northern Ireland", yet feature Irish articles not having anything to do with the North. (E.g. Luas trams in Dublin) They continue to pretend that they don't have an audience in the Republic greater than that in the North! UTV has acknowledged this for years. (It was amusing when they offered utv.ie or utv.co.uk as their website - your preference - until they switched to u.tv).
Zoney 10:10, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The BBC don't need to pretend that they don't have an audience in the Republic greater than that in the North Only the 6 counties are in their remit. Except for mutual interest or general inerest filler, like the Luas trams, why acknowledge the vagaries of broadcasting sites. UTV merely demonstrate a desire for profit, .ie or .co.uk may alienate part of their audience, whilst two sites is twice the cost.

As for "Irish Republic" versus "Republic of Ireland", at least they've stopped saying southern Ireland (or Southern Ireland). The difference is a convenient linguistic shorthand, even if vital historically. Getting them to change will be a long teaching process; getting them to understand why probably be impossible. --garryq 11:43, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've always felt that 'Éire' in the British media was being polite, not rude, along the lines of: 'that's what they like to call their country, you see it on stamps and coins, so it must be the right name'. They can't be expected in the C21 to understand the constitutional complexities of 1936-49.Wluki 16:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caption

In lieu of "Map of Éire", I'd suggest something like, "The boundaries of Éire were established by (link to document article) in (year) &emdash; the newer official name led to full soverignty for the Republic of Ireland." Of course, I haven't found where the boundaries were established. (More ideas at Wikipedia:Captions.) -- ke4roh 10:51, Jul 14, 2004 (UTC)

I believe it was/is more a defacto situation - was there not a boundary commission that sat, and made recommendations no-one liked, so it never got to sit again, and the whole 26 counties / 6 counties thing was just kept without formal agreement. Plus until the GFA in 1998, and the resulting constitutional amendment, the 1937 constitution claimed the whole country + islands + waters as belonging to the state of Ireland.

In this context, a map of all of Ireland (no NI boundary) may be more appropriate for the Éire article. Zoney 11:25, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It is rather complicated. Bunreacht na hEireann in the since changed Articles 2 & 3 mentions two entities, the "national territory" (32 counties)and the "state" (26 counties) without indicating which once was covered by the name "Eire". General usage has indicated that Eire simply corresponds to the previous Saorstat Eireann/Irish Free State state, and it in turn corresponded to the territory called "Southern Ireland" in the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. Few people define Eire as an all-island reference. Even though Eire is simply the gaelic for Ireland, people tend to use Ireland for either the 26 or 32 counties depending on the context, and Eire exclusively for the 26 counties, in effect through usage indicating that Ireland = national territory, Eire = state. So describing the entire island as Eire would run contrary to the usage in 99.9% of contexts elsewhere and is better off avoided. FearÉIREANN 20:14, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

and Eire exclusively for the 26 counties - yeah, apart from those of use who use the Irish language!!! I mean come on, it means IRELAND, state, country, nation whatever, Éire is the Irish word for Ireland! Tá roinnt daoine ann fós agus Gaeilge acu! :o) Zoney 21:46, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It isn't that simple, Zoney. Ireland has differing political, cultural, economic, historical, diplomatic and geographical meanings, with Ireland culturally, geographically etc meaning the island, and Ireland diplomatically and politically meaning the twenty-six counties. That is why the Republic sits in the UN as Ireland, not the Republic of Ireland, but makes no claim to represent anything other than the 26 county state. That is also why Ireland (26 counties) in the EU means the twenty-six county state, not the island. Eire is used overwhelmingly in the diplomatic and political sphere exclusively to refer to the twenty-six counties, the state as it is referred to in Bunreacht na hEireann, the state that since April 1949 has had the legal description under the Republic of Ireland Act as the Republic of Ireland. The state, as de Valera himself acknowledged in his papers on the drafting of the constitution, is the 26 counties. That is why a proposal in early drafts to allow the President not to leave the "national territory" (the island) was changed to say that the "President shall not leave the state save with the consent of the government", in effect meaning that all visits to Northern Ireland could only take place with the consent of the government. (Governments have regularly refused to allow presidents visit Northern Ireland. Everytime Mary McAleese visits her home in Rostrevor she needs formal cabinet approval.)

Ireland in some contexts is taken to mean 26 counties, others 32. Eire, though an original translation of Ireland, is applied exclusively as the constitutional name of the state. It is not applied in a cultural sphere. Its usage in Irish is of no relevance here except in a passing line or two, as this is English language wikipedia, not the Irish one (and there is one). As with taoiseach, tsar, Kaiser, and many other native language words, Eire in effect is an incorporated word in the english language now. Just as an article on kaiser, though including a mention of its native linguistic origins, would focus primarily on its english-understood meaning to and usage by english speakers in an english encyclopaedia, so Eire here is being discussed in its context as a crossover word used by people in english and understood in that context, and in that context it never means the thirty-two counties and always means the twenty-six county state, as acknowledged by de Valera, who in effect created the english language word Eire by using it in the english language version of the Bunreacht written by John Hearne, rather than, as he could have done, used Eire exclusively for the Irish language version of the Bunreacht, and Ireland exclusively in the english language version. And deV not only created the english language word Eire but gave it its definition as twenty-six, not thirty-two counties. FearÉIREANN 18:19, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] A grammatical question

Why is the name Éire in the dative case? -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:09, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The answer... it's not. It's "Éirinn" in the dative, whilst it's "Éireann" in the genitive. Zoney 18:22, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

OK, I didn't read the article. It's referring to the link between the State name and the goddess. The cases I gave above are for the other forms of the name of the State. Zoney 18:25, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I fixed it. Evertype 17:24, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)

[edit] Éire as the Irish for 'Ireland' and other comments

1. This article doesn't seem to make it entirely clear that 'Éire' is primarily the Irish (Gaelic) word for Ireland. It deals with 'Éire' essentially as a political concept (not sure quite how to express this). Should the initial definition not make this clear?

2. 'Éire (in the Irish language, translated as Ireland) is the name given' - but the name given in English is 'Ireland', and that isn't mentioned here!

3. Also,

The name Éire is the nominative form in modern Irish Gaelic of the name for the goddess Ériu, a mythical figure who helped the Gaels conquer Ireland as described in the Book of Invasions.

This could be read as meaning that this is what the word normally means in modern Irish Gaelic, which is very far from the case!

4. Is it worth mentioning that the normal form of the word in colloquial Irish is 'Éirinn' (i.e. the dative case), and hence the alternative (poetic) English name for Ireland 'Erin'. Palmiro 02:53, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Is Éireann, the genitive case not more usual? zoney ♣ talk 10:42, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

no, Éirinn, like Albain for Ireland (instead of the original nominative Alba). Éireann is still used as the genitive case. In fact some native speakers find Éire distinctly odd.Palmiro 13:19, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm an Irish speaker. I agree that Éire is less usual, only used in the context of naming countries (e.g. Éire, Albain, Sasana, An Bhreatain Bheag). But it just seemed to me that Éireann (genitive, of Ireland) was more common, e.g. An Garda Síochána na hÉireann, Rialtas na hÉireann. B.T.W., I presume you mean Albain for Scotland? zoney ♣ talk 13:25, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, to be clear, what I meant was that in colloquial Irish native speakers often use 'Éirinn' instead of 'Éire' as the nominative. E.g. An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonamara, by Séamas Ó Murchú, Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, Dublin, 1998, l.21: "Éirinn atá san ainmneach agus sa tabharthach." and An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne, by Diarmuid Ó Sé, Institiúid Teangeolaíochta Éireann, Dublin, 1995, l. 73: ""Éire: Éirinn a deirtear." Btw if you haven't come across these books they're excellent summaries of modern spoken Irish, there's one for donegal as well by Dónall P. Ó Baoill.

All the examples you give of Éireann are of the correct use of the genitive. And yes, I did indeed mean Scotland for Albain!Palmiro 17:38, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This whole article is misconceived. The term ‘Éire’ is simply not correct usage in English. Contrary to what is asserted, it is emphatically not ‘the name given in Article 4 of the 1937 Irish constitution to the 26-county Irish state’. That provision is in the following terms:

'Éire is ainm don Stát, nó sa Sacs-Bhéarla, Ireland.' ('The name of the State is Éire, or in the English language, Ireland')

Article 4 clearly does not sanction the use of the word ‘Éire’ in English. Lest there be the slightest doubt about this, here is what the Supreme Court had to say on the subject (bearing in mind that the Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means):

‘In the English language the name of this State is ‘Ireland’ and is so prescribed by Article 4 of the Constitution. Of course if the courts of the United Kingdom or of other States choose to issue warrants in the Irish language then they are quite at liberty to use the Irish language name of the State as prescribed in the Constitution. However they are not at liberty to attribute to this State a name which is not its correct name. It is quite clear from various warrants which have come before this Court from time to time that this is a conscious and deliberate practice. In effect it is a refusal to recognise a provision of the Constitution of Ireland. Every court in this State, and every member of the Garda Síochána is duty bound to uphold the Constitution and not to condone or acquiesce in any refusal to recognise the Constitution or any part thereof. If the courts of other countries seeking the assistance of this courts of this country are unwilling to give this State its constitutionally correct and internationally recognised name then, in my view, the warrants should be returned to such countries until they have been rectified. Henceforth it should be the care and concern of the requesting prosecuting and judicial authorities of another State not to ignore or brush aside the fundamental law of this State. It should be the concern and care of the Irish authorities not to permit the existence of any such a situation.’

(Ellis v O’Dea [1989] I.R. 530)

CM

You are quite correct "Éire" has only ever been used as a condecending substitute for the states name; "Ireland" is the only official name of the state, in English, with "Republic of Ireland" as its official description. Djegan 15:57, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poll: Ireland article titles

A poll is currently underway to determine the rendition of the island, nation-state, and disambiguation articles/titles for Ireland in Wp. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 08:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gaining Irish citizenship

Just a question of which I couldn't find the answer anywhere...

I am living in Ireland for two years now (one year in Dublin, then moved to Northern Ireland). I was wondering if I could apply to gain the Irish nationality? I am a EU citizen, so I was wondering that there may be a faster naturalisation procedure for EU citizens?

If someone has info, please reply here, or feel free to mail: gerrit.df @gmail.com (remove the empty space in front of the @)

Northern Ireland isn't part of Ireland; Wikipedia is constantly vague on this by using "Ireland" to mean the island, but that's like moving to Ontario and trying to become an American citizen. Twin Bird 23:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not an entirely fair anaolgy. Almost everyone born in Northern Ireland does have a right to Irish citizenship, so its a perfectly reasonable question to ask whether that extends to someone who would like to be a naturalized citizen. Its a good question, but in the case of naturalization, time spent in Northern Ireland does not count toward gaining Irish citizenship. The exception to this is if the individual is married to an Irish citizen, in which case my understanding is that living in Northern Ireland for the prescribed number of years would allow one to gain Irish citizenship. As for the idea that Wikipedia is vague in its use of Ireland. I can agree that on the Eire page, it might be a good idea to specify the two jurisdictions that are on the island called Eire, but, in general, on all the main pages relating to Ireland/Northern Ireland, I believe the jurisdictional issues are explained. Its not quite Wikipedia's fault that the island and the state are named the same thing. Nuclare 01:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of Éire

Do any scholars really believe the goddess Ériu is the origin of Éire? It sounds like an etiological myth, with the derivation in the reverse direction. This posting lists 3 suggested etymologies:

1. Name of a tribe in the NW of Ireland, who spread out, giving their name to the goddess and then the island.
2. Indo European *Piweriya "fertile country"
3. Semitic "island of copper".

jnestorius^(talk) 22:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] grammar in discussion

"I'm an Irish speaker. I agree that Éire is less usual, only used in the context of naming countries (e.g. Éire, Albain, Sasana, An Bhreatain Bheag). But it just seemed to me that Éireann (genitive, of Ireland) was more common, e.g. An Garda Síochána na hÉireann, Rialtas na hÉireann. B.T.W., "

'Most often used' would refer to nominating a noun in the direct case. In this example, 'Éirinn', the old propositional case singular has taken over from the old nominative, in Connacht at least

It sounds as if you are confused. Even if the genitive form was more common (and it might be), it is more common in terms of instance, not in terms of acting nominally, in which case Éirinn in more common.

"An Garda Síochána na hÉireann": remember, never more than one definite article per phrase! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.134.221.3 (talk) 22:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] irish link

the link to the irish language page is to the page about the island itself, not the term Éire. doesn't seem like an apropriate link. thoughts? ...Patrick (talk, contributions) 01:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The others are equally problematic; the French is the article on the Republic of Ireland, and the Spanish and Finnish are redirects. I'm removing them all. —Angr 12:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)