Talk:Alexis Arquette

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class.

Punctuaton grammar: Punctuation marks (commas, periods, etc.) should be inside the colse-parenthesis. For example: Correct: "I like dogs," Tom said. Not correct: "I like dogs", Tom said.

Contents 1 Pronouns and transsexuality 2 "She" and "drag" seem to contradict one another 3 An attempt at a blanket explanation 4 Meaning of this paragraph? 5 Anatomical vs. physiological 6 Gender vs. gender identity 7 Oh yeah, "gender reassignment" 8 A few ideas 9 "A few ideas" raises questions 10 so is this person a man or a woman? 11 I fixed the article. 12 Revert by anon 13 Revert to earlier version 14 Revert to earlier version 15 Until "Robert" became "Alexis" 16 failed verification 17 Tag and Question about the term "gender" 18 Re: Tag and Question about the term "gender"

[edit] Pronouns and transsexuality

Anonymous editors and others who would revert this article to male pronouns: Please be considerate of accepted standards in the gender dysphoria community and general politeness overall in understanding that transwomen like Ms. Arquette are to be addressed as, referred to, and if possible thought of as female. If for some reason there is indication that this article needs male pronouns, it is incorrect to also list the subject as transsexual. So, if you want to revert to male pronouns, please provide evidence demonstrating the cisgendered status of the subject. Thanks. ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 03:25, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I did some digging online and found the now-cited Variety article that is pretty definitive in saying that, even if Arquette does not complete SRS, she is transsexual by virtue of counseling and hormones. As such, she is a woman and any edit made to this page that says or intimates otherwise is vandalism. Sheesh leave the poor girl's article alone. ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 20:15, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

This is bizarre. I read this article and had no idea if 'she' was a man, or a woman, or a transgendered man or a transgendered woman. Using 'he' would at least have made things clearer - as it stands, it is quite possible to go away with the impression that Alexis used to be a woman, but is now a man (unless you read right to the very end). And please cite the Wikipedia policy which states that we "must be considerate to accepted standards in the gender dysphoria community" - to do so would sound like a serious violation of NPOV to me. I might add that to do so would also constitute the adoption of a very Americo-centric view that people in other parts of the English-speaking world would find very difficult to follow. Just to demonstrate the total confusion that your approach adopts, imagine the final paragraph re-written like so "In 2004 Arquette expressed an interest in fully making a transition from male to female by the use of hormone treatments and, ultimately, a sex reassignment surgery but so far SHE has made the decision not to go ahead with it." Confusing to say the least. 195.194.199.50 12:40, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd disagree with such edits being categorized as vandalism, I would however categorize deliberate misrepresentation of someone's gender identity in pronouns as a personal attack against the individual whom the biography is about, which is just as inappropriate, and still very much revertable. - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 04:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Triona, sorry I guess I didn't know that there was a difference here on WikiPedia! I agree with you entirely! ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 00:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Incidently, the cited Variety article says "He's the brother of thesps David, Rosanna and Patricia Arquette" - not "She's the sister". I have no problem with referring to Wendy Carlos as "she" because Wendy Carlos is a woman - however, Alexis Arquette is manifestly not a woman - and to say he is, is POV. Also, according to the article as it stands she's a woman AND ALSO a drag performer - does this mean that she dresses as a man in the drag act???195.194.199.50 16:04, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

To avoid cluttering the page, I'm going to respond to both this and the above block from 195.194.199.50 here. Basically, I feel that the article needs to be respectful of the gender identity of the subject, and an expressed, published, and citable desire on the part of Alexis Arquette implies to me that Ms. Arquette is identifying as a female. In this light, I agree that the article may need to be reworded to correct potential confusion relating to this, but it is my sincere feeling that, regardless of the status of Ms. Arquette's genitals (which are not the conern of this article in any fashion), she should be referred to as female. I don't know that any of this is official Wikipedia policy, but I could look and ask around if I need to.

That said, I don't think it's unfair to clarify and explicitly state her gender transition status, if it is confusing to the reader, especially given that Ms. Arquette was widely known as a male doing drag before expressing a desire in transition. Perhaps we can work together and make the article more clear without causing it to become defamatory? I guess it's important for me to point out here that gender and pronouns are not tied to genital status in respectable society anymore, but lots of magazines and other publications still use defamatory and derogatory pronouns when referring to transgendered people. Just because the magazine says "he" doesn't mean that she's identifying as male.

Finally, I think women can do drag just as much as men. Drag is characterized by over-the-top, glamorous clothing and a certain style of attitude and presentation. A man putting on a dress isn't necessarily doing drag, but a woman who does huge makeup and puts on a gigantic fake up-do wig and huge extended fingernails, etc. and goes and dances on stage can, I feel, be legitimately described as doing drag. You're welcome to disagree, of course. I'm a member of the "gender activist" culture and I feel that I often find myself splitting categories much more finely than many in the general populace would.

So anyway, just my two cents. I understand that this is a hairy issue and I'd like to find a good way to fix it, so let's please work together instead of edit-warring? ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 06:06, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Defame- 1. To damage the reputation, character, or good name of by slander or libel. See Synonyms at malign.

Slander- 1. Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation. 2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Libel- 1a. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation. 1b. The act of presenting such material to the public. 2. The written claims presented by a plaintiff in an action at admiralty law or to an ecclesiastical court.

Is it defamatory, or a personal attack, if the information being provided/edited-in is demonstrably, legally true? If the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language]actron[/url] being described in this article considers themself to be a different gender than what they were born as, but has not taken the steps necessary to legally effect that change, then how accommodating is the general public expected to be towards them? I will admit that it is courteous to use the gender-pronouns that a transgender associates themself with, but is courtesy required on a website devoted to factual information? Is it a character assassination I refer to Alexis Arquette as "he", if that is what is indicated on "his" drivers license?

GeekGirlSarah, if I understand your contributions correctly, gender != sex. If this is true, then Alexis Arquette is truthfully both male and female. Gender-wise, she is female; this is her chosen identity. Genetically, sexually, legally, he is male(I'm assuming; I haven't had a peek at Alexis Arquette's drivers license).

Does Wikipedia have a "courtesy/politeness" policy towards facts or descriptive terms associated with an article subject? Especially when the facts of the subject can be demonstrated to be opposite of their asserted identity/history/truth?

Thanks for actually discussing this instead of just reverting edits and such, anonymous person. I'm happy to discuss this with you... And I think you bring up a good point, which is that we don't actually know Arquette's wishes, nor do we fully understand what is going on in hir life. If you support a move towards gender-neutral language and maybe we can get a third perspective, I'd be happy to support a move to less gender-binary speak.

In fairness, though, I'd like to point out that often driver's licenses are behind on sex/gender issue for transgendered people. I don't think that's a fair test, but I think you have a valid point otherwise. It's certainly not my intention to defame Arquette through this use of this article if sie feels that sie is properly male, but I picked up a thread that was ongoing with this article before I joined WP and made it a bit of a pet cause due to the tremendous number of un-commented pronoun reverts that the article gets. There does seem to be published information that hasn't been actually refuted that supports a transsexual classification for this person, in my opinion. I am not a quorum, nor do I speak for WP or for anyone else... I just tend to revert people when they ignore the talk page and all previous commentary on the issue and blindly plug male pronouns back into the article.

I also would like to add for the record that I think it's a shame that we can't just call Arquette's publicist and ask.

So, please do reply with your commentary, anon. I'd be happy to talk it over with you! ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 04:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "She" and "drag" seem to contradict one another

If Alexis Arquette is now considered female, then why are her performances referred to as "drag"? If she is female, then her performances as Eva Destruction would just be lip sync performance, right? Or was she identified as male when she was performing, in which case it would be correct to label them as "drag" performances? -- Andrew Parodi 09:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this depends on how you feel about the definition of "drag"... I have known some female drag queens in real life. I think the "drag queen" form of show is mostly dependent on whether you're going for the super-over-glam look and stuff more than the status of your gender, but that's just my feeling. ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 20:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Just a general comment: could this editorial dispute please be resolved swiftly, as the article currently makes little sense and reads bizarrely. If no agreement can be reached on gender-specific pronouns, I suggest that non-gender specific pronouns such as "they" be used instead. DWaterson 00:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"They" is incorrect. The article would read "he or she." This would add confusion and unnecessary verbosity, would it not?Brushfirefairytale 16:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I support a switch to gender-neutral pronouns, and if someone wants to change it, I wouldn't object. ♥ GeekGirlSarah ♥ 04:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Granted, I am no expert on transgender issues or drag, but had always thought, and I think the public has always perceived, that "drag" is in effect a male dressed up as a female. I don't think most would consider that a woman can do a "drag" show, unless, perhaps, if she is dressed up and performing as a male. In other words, in a "drag" show one is usually expected to be the opposite gender of what one is portraying.

About the gender neutral pronouns, I think that at the very least the article should state that Alex Arquette was born male and is currently identified as female and will at some point undergo sex reassignent surgery. -- Andrew Parodi 06:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, then again, maybe not. Here is the introductory paragraph from the Drag queen article:

"Drag queens are performers - often gay men or transgendered people - who dress in "drag," clothing associated with the female gender (see drag king for women who perform in male clothing), often exaggerating certain characteristics for comic, dramatic or satirical effect . The term "drag queen" usually refers to people who dress in drag for the purpose of performing, whether singing or lip-syncing, dancing, participating in events such as gay pride parades or pageants, or at venues such as cabarets and discotheques."

I had always thought that drag queens were male-identified and took on the persona of female for the performance. I have to admit, I find this topic terribly confusing. -- Andrew Parodi 06:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An attempt at a blanket explanation

I have given this topic some serious thought and contemplation before coming back to edit it because I want to try and be as clear as possible to any type of person who might be reading. There seems to be a lack of clarification as to what it means to be a drag queen and what it means to be a transexual. Of course some time spent reading these two wikipedia articles might assist you in better understanding the differences.

Though it is true that typically a drag queen is a male who dresses up as a woman (or in feminine garb) specifically to entertain, it is possible for a transexual person - a person who has made the transision from male to female - to continue performing as a drag queen. In these cases, the person generally acknoweldges their former gender, and part of the appreciation of their performance stems from their successful completion of this process.

What is lacking from this PARTICULAR article is an emphasis on the fact that Alexis Arquette was performing as a drag queen before she became a transexual and began living as a woman. Alexis originally performed drag under the name "Eva Destruction", and was not at that time taking hormones or (to any public knowledge) contemplating gender reassignment surgery.

I am going to make changes to the article that clarify this distinction and make the situation a little bit more comprehensible to the average reader. Pacian 02:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that's the point. This article needs to be directed toward the average reader, and the average reader is confused by these things. Heck, I'm hardly the "average reader" (my sister came out of the closet when I was 10; I grew up among many gay people, etc.), and even I am confused by this. Andrew Parodi 08:01, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of this paragraph?

What does this paragraph mean?

To this end, though still legally a male by physiology, Arquette has publicly declared that she considers her gender to be female, and should be referred to as such in accordance with the rights and liberties accorded to transgendered persons in America (her country of residence.) To not do so is considered insulting at best, and a form of sexual harassment at worst.

Andrew Parodi 08:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's a long-winded way of saying "Please call her she, not he." Angr (talk • contribs) 08:27, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

No. That pargraph was completely self explanatory. I apologize if you didn't understand it's meaning, but that's your ignorance. It states quite clearly: though Arquette still is a physical male, the United States of America has certain legal rights afforded to people who identify as transgendered, and as such is is both impolite and potentially a civil or criminal act to refer to Arquette as a male if she has made clear that she prefers to be addressed as a female. Not to put too fine a point upon it: in the USA, you could be sued civilly or even possibly arrested, tried and convicted for sexual harassment (based on gender orientation) if you incessantly insist on calling a transgendered person by the pronouns that reflect his or her biological status. There was a link in that paragraph to the American Civil Liberties Union website section on American transgendered rights. The current rewording of the paragraph eliminates the extremely important distinction and link, and I am reverting it to its original state. Pacian 17:35, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anatomical vs. physiological

I changed "physiological" to "anatomical." Physiology implies biology and chromosomes, and those are not going to change. Anatomy, however, can be changed.

--Dr. Jillian Todd Weiss 04:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gender vs. gender identity

I changed this to say that she declared her "gender identity" to be female, rather than her gender. A small point, but gender identity refers to the internal sense that one is male or female, whereas gender refers not only to subjective components, but also to objective views of third parties. In California, "gender" means sex, but it also includes a person's gender identity and gender related appearance and behavior whether or not stereotypically associated with the person's assigned sex at birth. California Penal Code 422.56(c)12, www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/advancements_in_law.pdf

The California statutes do not give any indication of when a person is considered legally of the opposite sex for all purposes. Therefore, I relied on the right of privacy as a broader basis on which to define Ms. Arquette's right to demand usage of the female pronoun.

Okay, a little technical, but I am a professor.

--Dr. Jillian Todd Weiss 04:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

A little technical? You're trying to blind us with science, your reasoning is faulty, and your statements are outright incorrect. Maybe this works on freshmen, but Wikipedians are a more educated and cynical bunch. 63.23.2.31 10:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oh yeah, "gender reassignment"

I didn't change this one, because it's used so often, but I want to note my theoretical objection. If gender is psychological, and sex is anatomical, then hormone treatments and surgery can't change gender; they can only change sex. I favor using the term "sex reassignment."

--Dr. Jillian Todd Weiss 11:40, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A few ideas

1. Alexis Arquette has been male for most of his/her career. Replacing all references to 'he' with 'she' is historical revisionism. It is not disrespectful to his/her sexuality to point out that this person used to be male, and still has that anatomy, genetic makeup, etc.

2. The Law & Sexuality journal is an acceptable reference, but the contents are still argument and not undisputed constitutional legal theory. Vogue magazine is by no means a reference suitable for an encyclopedia on legal theory.

3. The article as currently written, plus this talk page, is just plain confusing. As pointed out, one cannot argue that gender is immutable and then state that it was changed through surgery, and a female can't really do 'drag'. Can someone please rewrite this article?

Remember to assume good faith. Nothing on this talk page is anti-LGBT including this entry. - Richardcavell 10:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "A few ideas" raises questions

1. The charge that "replacing all references to 'he' with 'she' is historical revisionism" is based on an erroneous assumption. It ignores the fact that transsexuals generally claim to be born with a gender identity different from the gender assigned at birth. In undergoing sex reassignment surgery, transsexuals seek to bring anatomy in line with the gender identity held since the formation of gender identity at an early age (presumed to be 2-5 years of age). The anatomy itself is of no consequence. However, the previous user incorrectly assumes that sexual anatomy trumps gender identity. The article from the U.S. journal "Law and Sexuality," deleted by the previous user, addresses this issue.

2. The previous user indicates that he deleted the "Law and Sexuality" article because it is not "undisputed." It should be noted that legal interpretation constantly evolves, and there is no such thing as "undisputed" constitutional interpretation. Therefore, it is inappropriate to require an "undisputed" interpretation as a reference. Rather, what is required in a reference is that it backs up the fact alleged in the Wikipedia article, not that it settle the question for all time. If he wants to include the idea that the interpretation is disputed, let him go and find another reference disputing it.

3. The previous user states that "one cannot argue that gender is immutable and then state that it was changed through surgery, and a female can't really do 'drag'." Actually, one can. All one needs to do is explain that "gender identity" is a neuro-psychological aspect of consciouness, that it is not a function of sexual anatomy, and that it can differ from the "gender" assigned at birth. Sex can be changed through "sex reassignment surgery" to be congruent with the individual's gender identity. Next, note that "drag" is generally defined to be a performance art, in which the gender identity of the individual is opposite to that of the performance. Thus, a female who performs a character that is female is not doing "drag" within that definition. (However, note that a female can do drag, as in a female who performs a character that is male.)

4. All this theoretical discussion does not belong in an article on a popular entertainment celebrity, and the previous user makes a mistake when he suggests that all this should be explained there, and goes about deleting the very references that discuss it, and then makes arguments demonstrating no knowledge of the subject or the rules of grammar. Therefore, I am replacing the previous reference. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

--Dr. Jillian Todd Weiss 12:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] so is this person a man or a woman?

I understand the issues of gender identity, but when seeing this article, I was astounded that the question of does this person have male anatomical parts of female isn't answered (does the person have a penis?!)

Does it matter? Gender is determined by the mind, not the body. Is it even appropriate to have a discussion of someone's genitalia in an encyclopedia article?

I'm kind of astounded by the hand-wringing over this low-level celebrity. This is just a bio blurb, so really, we ought to keep it simple for the regular folks that read Wikipedia. This isn't a soapbox to promote transgender ideas. Alexis Arquette is like a real life Maxwell Klinger. I suspect he's all show, and that's just fine with me. In reality, he's a man, with a dick and balls and male pattern baldness. I saw him brag about the size of his dick on the Surreal Life. He's a gay transvestite. That's what the evidence I have tells me. Give me an article from a hard science peer-reviewed journal that says that gender is determined completely by one's mind and emotions, and I'll support calling Alexis Arquette a "she." Since I don't think such an article exists or ever will exist, I think he should be called "he" and I strongly object to the current version of the article. Nature doesn't care about Alexis Arquette's feelings as much as it cares about him ejaculating in fertile women's vaginas to propagate the species. Sorry to be crude, but that is why he was born with a dick and balls. Erik the Rude 06:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a guy with a dick that has a woman idenity. So what! Call HIM just that. A guy that's a girl! wheew that was easy.

[edit] I fixed the article.

I was sick of seeing bewildered folks coming in wondering whether AA was a man or woman and having the PC police answer with the unhelpful comment "does it matter?" Hell yes, it matters! Otherwise there wouldn't be all this hair splitting over gender politics. The guy's got a twig and berries, folks. It's not hard to figure out. I think I did a decent job of sticking to the facts while respecting Arquette's lifestyle choices. I'd be very upset if I were reverted, and I'd be likely to revert again and go to an RfC. This has gone on long enough, and I'm putting my size 13 foot down. Erik the Rude 15:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert by anon

I noticed an anon reverted the pronouns. Sigh. This is getting tedious. The problem with a person who is obviously a cross-dressing man claiming he his a woman is that there is no current empirical, scientific way of determining whether he was indeed born a woman in his mind, soul, or spirit if such a strange thing is indeed possible. I've read that people who consider themselves transsexuals will study the relevant psychometric tests and give the appropriate answers to give them the gender they want. So, those tests don't prove a thing. (BTW, I scored well into the female range on the MMPI test, and I also scored very high in a test of emotional intelligence and scored as very empathetic in yet another test. I am, however, most definitely a man, with manly desires, habits, and attitudes.) Besides, I agree with the esteemed Dr. Hannibal Lecter that psychology isn't a science anyway. Therefore, we'll have to rely on current science and use genetics and anatomy. Erik the Rude 13:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revert to earlier version

I reverted the article to a previous version to undo the vandalism done by Erik the Rude

Well, I just reverted it back. HE has a PENIS! Not SHE has a PENIS! She's don't have penises, you silly goose.

Right, Mr. Slave?

Oh, Jesus Christ!

[edit] Revert to earlier version

I reverted it back to the previous version. This is in keeping with the AP Style book --

The Associated Press Style Book (2000 Edition) says:

"Use the pronoun preferred by the individuals who have acquired the physical characteristics (by hormone therapy, body modification, or surgery) of the opposite sex and present themselves in a way that does not correspond with their sex at birth. If that preference is not expressed, use the pronoun consistent with the way the individuals live publicly."

[edit] Until "Robert" became "Alexis"

is it not fair to refer to "him"?

I accept readily that today, Alexis is a "she", not a "he"... but during the Tubes video, wasn't Robert a "he"?

I'm confused, I'll let you guys work it out.

InsultComicDog 07:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)InsultComicDog

this article has obviously been vandalized. fix it.

[edit] failed verification

The article states, "Under U.S. law, transgender individuals are generally permitted to determine their own gender identity, regardless of their birth sex."

The citation given for this sentence is a 64-page PDF document. Near the top of page 46 of this document is the statement, "And indeed, of those states which do permit gender reclassification, some do so only if there has been sex reassignment surgery, thus excluding preoperative transsexual people from gender reclassification." This assertion is repeated on page 55, "Some states require sex reassignment surgery prior to making any changes to government documents, whereas others do not."

This suggests (1) that gender identity is covered by state law, not "U.S. law", and (2) that Arquette's legal ability to determine her gender may be affected by her state of residence.

I've added a failed verification template to the article. -- Heath 24.127.52.67 07:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tag and Question about the term "gender"

I added a "citation" tag just to make it clear for first-time visitors to the page and anyone who wants to go digging for references. I also have a question about the term "gender". According to the talk page for the wiki article "sex", gender is an unsuitable term and I was wondering, in order to try and keep articles in line with each other (yes- I live in a dream world), maybe we can consider using the term sex instead of gender? Just a thought, I'd like to hear other opinions (preferably after you've read the appropriate section of the talk page for sex) Naysie 14:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Tag and Question about the term "gender"

No, sex and gender are separate concepts. "Sex" is used in reference to physical anatomy, and "gender" to one's mental traits. See the entry for transgender.