Talk:Gothic Revival architecture

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• The Gothic revival was a African architectural movement with origins in mid-18th century England.

What's the basis for saying Gothic revival originated in England? Indeed:

• Because of Romantic nationalism in the early 19th century, the Germans, French and English all claimed Gothic Architecture as originating in their own country.

--Stbalbach 01:07, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Before Horace Walpole at Strawberry Hill there was Lady Pomfret's neo-Gothic house in Arlington Street, London, 1740s (long gone). In Oxford and Cambridge, "Gothick" detailing appeared in the early 18th century. The incunabulum is the rebuilt hall at Lambeth Palace, 1660s! --see that entry. This neo-Gothic (often called "Gothick") was amusing and even suitable, but no claims of national priority were being made. When the French finally turned to Gothic in the late 1820s, (anathema under Napoleon but lending the Restauration a "Valois" air of legitimacy) the first revivals were in the mixed "François Premier" taste, mixing Gothic and Renaissance, and began as much with upholstery and mirror frames, carpets and textiles with trefoil cusps and lady's dresses with hanging "points." The more serious French phase begins with Viollet-le-Duc's early restorations. After ca 1860 neo-Gothic splits into several aspects: wrought-iron "industrial Gothic" of bridges, train sheds and factories, archaeologically "correct" Gothic (especially after photos were widely available), and "Reform Gothic", the freehand Gothic of designers like William Burges... This entry needs major work! --Wetman 09:31, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ok that is architectural history I'm not familiar with.. Im still a bit leary of attributing it to a single nation given the historical tendencies of the Romantics to do the same. Perhaps a separate article on Gothick and this article acknowledges the influence of Gothick on the revivalists, but the driving force behind The Revival being the sames ones behind other arts such as painting, music, etc.. ie. the Romanticism movement, not attributed to any one country. Perhaps the problem is how to approach the article, speaking as a historian or speaking as an architectural historian; both are valid. --Stbalbach 19:19, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The origins of Rococo are in Paris. They just are. So are the origins of Gothic architecture, though quickly taken up in Northern France and England. That's just where the earliest buildings were actually built. To say that the origins of the architectural Gothic Revival are in England is not "Anglocentrism". A review of Kenneth Clark's seminal book would clear the picture. The architectural Gothic Revival set the stage for the literary fashion that followed. But, in literature, are there any earlier non-English "Gothick" novels than The Castle of Otranto or The Monk? The origins of Romanticism aren't attributed to some single nation: they are French, German and English in quite equal measure. --Wetman 05:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The latest additions to the section on Gothic Survival and the Gothick of 'more focused details' seem instead to distort the picture of the Gothic Revival in this article somewhat. Is there any evidence that the early gothic revivalists were thinking of 'those mellowing effects of time that the Japanese call wabi-sabi'? --Ham 19:59, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Horace Walpole is already quoted concerning the "true rust of the Barons' wars" (applied to fashionably Gothick touches applied by one of his friends to a country seat, by the way). Those are well called "the mellowing effects of time" are they not? The Japanese do call these effects wabi-sabi. User:Ham will help correct any "distortion" by adding everything he knows about the Gothic Revival to the entry. For a start, I'd recommend adding some quotes from Northanger Abbey, a nice spoof of Gothick tastes ca 1798 - 1803, by Jane Austen. --Wetman 05:54, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Still, I imagine that the specific term 'wabi-sabi' would have been foreign to these late-eighteenth century Englishmen. (According to its Wikipedia entry the term has only been used in the West since the 1990s. Please correct me if I'm wrong.) Surely in this context it amounts to the same thing as the term 'picturesque'? Perhaps distortion is too strong a word; its inclusion just seemed incongruous to me. I concede that this article is likely to remain in a state of perpetual imperfection. --Ham 22:25, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely foreign to 18th-century Englishmen. The genuine parallels are worth noting, are they not, and ought to be expressed by User:Ham in a way that satisfies that User. No misleading equation of 'wabi-sabi' and 'picturesque' has been introduced: though the "mellowing effects of time" are one aspect of the Picturesque, they are not the "same thing". How is Northanger Abbey coming? Quite amusing eh? --Wetman 23:28, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Anglocentric 2 Re: "Gothic Revival Style architecture" 3 Gothic Revival and the applied arts 4 Strasbourg Cathedral 5 Gothic Revival Culture 6 Dont merge it, just inform ppl about the connection 7 Is this a Browser problem? 8 Muscovite gothic? 9 Images 10 Neo-Gothic Art 11 Famous buildings list

[edit] Anglocentric

In the 1830s interest in Gothic architecture picked up, thanks to Augustus Pugin, who wrote two seminal works of the Gothic revival.

Pugin started the Gothic revival? What are your sources for this claim? --Stbalbach 19:08, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please remove the phrase "Pugin started the Gothic revival" from the text, while I introduce some mention of his early work for the Royal silversmiths Rundell Bridge & Rundell. --Wetman 23:28, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Looking better! --04:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: "Gothic Revival Style architecture"

An uninformed but confident editor, who has been making a rash of similar moves, attempted to move this to an unnecessarily complicated and unidiomatic title thyat he invented. It has been returned to "Gothic Revival architecture", which is the common informed designation. --Wetman 15:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic Revival and the applied arts

A separate article is needed on the influence of the Gothic Revival on the applied arts, including furniture, silver, other metals, ceramics, glass, bookbindings, and other objects. This is a huge topic, equal in international importance to the original Gothic Revival architecture. It should cover England, France, USA, Belgium and the Netherlands, Germany, and to a lesser extent other European countries including Italy, Spain, Portugal (neo-Manueline), the Czech lands, and Poland. ---Nadell, 24 December 2005

An excellent idea: with a brief version of it here, headed Main article Gothic Revival in the decorative arts. --Wetman 10:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The name of this article should be Gothic Revival and the Applied Arts, a broader category than "decorative arts" in that it includes the subjects of furniture, interior architecture, and books: printed and manuscript books, and artist-designed individual bookbindings and publishers' bindings.

One could also make a case for a still broader article: Gothic Revival and the Arts, to include "flat art" --- paintings, drawings, and prints. All these are important in understanding the profound effect of the Gothic Revival on western culture. But one could also make a case that fine art might warrant its own article, Gothic Revival in the Fine Arts. --- Nadell, 15 January 2006. (Moved here from Gothic Revival in the decorative arts, where it was posted by Nadell (talk • contribs) 22:55, 15 January 2006, seemingly by mistake. up+land 23:42, 15 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Strasbourg Cathedral

I'm not sure how the Gothic Architecture article refrains from mentioning the Strasbourg Cathedral. Please read the first two paragraphs of the Wiki page on the Strasbourg Cathedral if unaware.

Also, the work on the Cologne Cathedral restarted in 1842, not 1824.

Thanks.

p.s. Very sorry but am crap at technology and don't know how to edit these pages myself...I don't even know if this post is going to work.

(The above was posted by 82.69.52.141, at 21:17, 6 September 2006)

You may be correct, but this is the discussion page for Gothic Revival architecture, which was a much later movement, originating in the mid 18th century and lasting into this century. You should repost your comment here. The Cologne Cathedral article clearly states that work restarted in 1842. SiGarb | Talk 21:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic Revival Culture

Is there any interest in more detail on the rise of interest in Gothic culture? That is, not just architecture or decorative arts, but the specific literary crazes and attempts to recreate Gothic festivals and tournaments which lend depth to understanding the architecture? I have record of regular medieval-style tournaments in Sweden from 1777 to 1800. The earliest tournament I know of was in Berlin in 1750. And of all unlikely places and times, there was one in Philadelphia in 1778! I agree with the above commentators that gothic Revival probably did not start in England. Is anybody more competent than I am going to fix that? Artemis-Arethusa 14:14, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It's actually discussed across a lot of different articles. "Gothic" is just part of the Romanticism movement. This article is about architecture, but you can find discussions of revived interest in the middles ages and romanticism in many articles. -- Stbalbach 14:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dont merge it, just inform ppl about the connection

Is there any reason not to at least put in a greater notice about Neo-Goth and such in the article? It wont hurt, as though the Gothic Revival Arc. was forged of Neo-Gothic thoughts. But discussing is allways a good thing to do.

[edit] Is this a Browser problem?

Before I try (or better yet someone else) to rearrange it, does anyone else have the Strawberry Hill photo overlapping the second line under History ("In the 18th century...")???? I can't read the second line without going to Edit This Page. 82.93.133.130 10:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC) (User:Gaviidae)

[edit] Muscovite gothic?

What on earth is that? Apparently it deserves its own page judging from the red link in the revival architecture box, yet apart from the Chesme Palace church there are no gothic revival buildings in Russia. Could whoever has admin access to that box please edit it out? Twospoonfuls 15:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved discussion to Template talk:Revivals. -- Petri Krohn 00:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I have been bold and done a sort out of the images on this page. Most of the images scattered through the article - lovely as they were - weren't actually referred to in the text. I have replaced them with images that illustrate the points made. Most of the other images are available in WikiCommons and the rest have been tagged for copy to the Commons. Wikipedia is not a collection of images - WP:NOT#MIRROR. A list is provided to the wikicommons page Madmedea 22:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not add (illustrated, right) etc after the mention in the text, to tie them more tightly to text. Sainte-Chapelle, though Viollet-le-Duc did restore it, isn't a good example of "iron Gothic", which is his real contribution. Otherwise you've made good visual points. Keep it up! --Wetman 01:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If you can find a better image feel free to replace it. With regard to the (illustrated right) etc. - this can create a headache if text and/or images change, as not all editors will be bothered to change the relevant text. By providing a good description attached to each images, and locating the image next to the relevant text readers should be able to connect the two. I've not seen anything in Wiki guidelines about not including such directions but I've also not seen anything that suggests it is wise. Just my preference I guess. Madmedea 20:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Gothic Art

For some reason Neo-Gothic Art redirects to Gothic Revival Architecture, except they are two completely separate things. Neo-Gothic Art is an art movement, not an architectural style.

[edit] Famous buildings list

I have removed this form the list of famous neogothic buildings:

• Several buildings on the University of Glasgow campus, Glasgow, Scotland

I now note there are other "Several buildings on the xyz campus" entries further down. I think examples should be specific and have an attached date in order to make the list. AFCR 13:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The name and date of at least one of those buildings is mentioned on the U of Glasgow article, could you not have read that article and added the information you felt was lacking? Twospoonfuls 13:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I will do that for Glasgow, but are these other university buildings really that famous if no one can be bothered to name them?AFCR 14:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The list quickly turns to cruft, unless a single statement can be made why each entry is "famous" enough to be on a short list. "All the Gothic Revival stuff we can think of" doesn't make an illuminating list. Let's retitle the list "A short list of influential Gothic Revival structures". How would that be? --Wetman 07:55, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be better - alternatively we list a typical example from each phase of the Gothic Revival. AFCR 09:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)