Talk:Kimono

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I'm not completely sure about the formality of an Iromuji, nor of Edo komon - any help is appreciated. - fraise

Whisper to me, why is it you insist on putting a link to Japanese language where one is not needed? Exploding Boy 14:16, May 23, 2004 (UTC)

whispers: I believe the discussion on how to translate "kimono" is a glowing example of why it is needed. Kimono and kitsuke make extensive use of Japanese terminology, aka the Japanese language. --fraise 30 June 2005 15:15 (UTC)

Contents 1 formality 2 wedding kimono 3 Meaning of Kimono 4 Obi-belt or sash 5 Men's kimonos 6 Merging Wafuku 7 Mink stole? 8 What "period of isolation"? And what does "uniquely Japanese" mean?

[edit] formality

I'm not sure the following statement is accurate.

"While very formal women's outfits do not include hakama, men's usually do."

Women wear hakama at college gradution ceremonies and some girls wear hakama for Shichigosan ceremonies. I would consider these formal events.

Info on Japanese Graduation Ceremonies Kimonos for Shichigosan --Feiriri 17:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the focus is on "very." I think graduation ceremonies or Shichigosan ceremonies would only be "slightly" formal. --Kjoonlee 18:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Thanks.--Feiriri 01:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wedding kimono

i have some pics from our traditional (kimono-wearing) wedding at my website www.davejenkins.com that are under the GFDL, if anyone would think they might work here... help yourself! Davejenk1ns 04:06, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of Kimono

We need to reach a consensus on what the literal English translation of "Kimono" should be. My proposal of "clothing" was reverted to "something one wears" by user:Exploding Boy. -Himasaram 10:05, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Ki": to wear; "mono": something. Exploding Boy 20:10, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Exploding Boy, you're missing the point. It's not a good idea to translate kanji in Japanese words one by one. "Kimono" is a unit and should be translated as such, not as a collection of kanji. And the word "kimono" simply means "clothing" or "garment". -Himasaram 21:21, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary, it is you who are missing the point, both on this page and on the Geisha page. Kimono does not mean "clothes." As I explained on talk: Geisha, the literal translation of the kanji (here, "something one wears") is different from the actual meaning of the word, which here is "kimono," given that only the particular types of clothing -- the long, rectangular robes -- described in the article are called "kimono" in Japan, and not "clothes," which are called "fuku," "wafuku" or "yōfuku." Exploding Boy 23:34, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Ah, I return to wikipedia after a two-year absence just in time for an interesting discussion. Kimono does indeed mean clothes, as do fuku, wafuku and yōfuku. Kimono also means "worn things," as well as meaning "things worn in a fashion that they hang from the shoulders" - as opposed to things worn on the feet, etc. This can be found in Liza Dalby's "Kimono". In other words, its definition is not black and white; there are several shades of meaning which, while self-evident to a Japanese speaker, are rather impossible to put across in a single English word, or even a "literal" breakdown of the kanji. A Japanese speaker certainly sees "kimono" as a single unit (I say this as someone who knows several Japanese who wear the garment and have said as much), while also being aware of its more "piecemeal" meanings. English does not have the luxury of such eloquent simplicity! --fraise 30 June 2005 15:12 (UTC)

This is almost a silly discussion. I have to agree with fraise: Kimono, in Japanese, has always meant clothes and only took on the specific meaning of traditional garments as they became less and less common. Though nowadays few people, and almost none under the age of about 60, use the word in reference to anything but the traditional garment (also called 呉服 gofuku), people like my mother-in-law (born in 1933 and a dialect speaker) still say kimono (often shortened to kimon) in reference to any type of clothing.

As far as the etymology goes... I agree about the inadvisability of breaking down words into their kanji elements to explain them, and indeed suggest going a step further: Don't mistake kanji as the defining elements of words used in Japanese. For example, though written 着物, kimono is not a "kanji word" (i.e., a Chinese word adopted into Japanese or a Sino-Japanese word): kimono is a native Japanese word (yamato kotoba) and itself a shortened form of kiru mono ("things worn" = "clothes").

The above said, I think there is some justification for explaining that kimono was originally the Japanese word for clothes of any kind but later came to be associated with a particular traditional garment, and that this meaning is itself different from what English speakers associate with kimono as it is now commonly used in English—i.e., in reference to a loose-fitting bathrobe-like woman's garment. Jim_Lockhart 15:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that we need to find a translation. The word has been imported into the English language and the article should continue as Kimono. Having said which, there is nothing against adding a section for Meaning ... clothes (derivation .. whatever). Kittybrewster 22:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obi-belt or sash

Obi is in the section about Japanese clothing articals, however it has no artical. Obi leads to a disambiguation page, on which the only definition of obi as clothing reads a belt worn on a kimono in certain martial arts and does not point one to an artical other than kimono. I left a message on the obi talk page, however to do so I had to first create the talk page, leading me to beleive that no one will see it. I know nothing on the subject of obi, so if someone could create at least a stub on this subject it would help me greatly. --1 black han d 13:13, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Men's kimonos

Are there any pictures of men in a kimono? All the pictures are of women. --Angr (t·c) 14:14, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm glad someone asked this. I found one off a person's user page. I expect that since I'm not the group that runs this article (every article has a group of several people or just 1 person and several sockpuppets who run it), I'll be reverted, but still mine should be kept and one of the others removed. Tempoo 18:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Angr, you're the one who plasters their naked picture all over the pedia. Tempoo 18:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry... had to take it off. A photo of a Westerner posing in a kimono in a photo salon is no more befitting of inclusion in an article on kimonos than what a family posing at Silver Dollar City should be included in an article describing western wear. See the link if you don't get the reference.

Photo

Ntk53s 11:30, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for getting rid of that. It looked like a vanity photo! Now if we could get rid of the ass-shots of the three old bats waiting for a train, all we'd need is a good photo of man (preferably Japanese) in kimono... Jim_Lockhart 11:38, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks for that vanity comment, given that as far as I can remember I have never editted this page and I have no connections with the user that did add the picture. It really helps to say that. elvenscout742 14:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I apologise for the blunt nature of my comment—it was meant to be about the photo within the context of the article, not the photo itself. Hence the "looked like". Nonetheless, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings. However, I do feel that a photo of a gaijin in a kimono in an article about kimono, is kind of incongruent. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 15:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Better a photo of a wester man in a kimono than no photo of a man in a kimono. Exploding Boy 16:47, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I would be inclined to agree. The article is about clothing, not about race. Still, I should make it clear that this is not an attempt to get my photo reinstated - if others deem it inappropriate then that's that. elvenscout742 21:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that any is better than none, and also that race ideally should not be a factor—which is why I did not remove it myself much earlier, and if the photo gets placed back, I won't touch it unless I think I have something better to replace it with. Nonetheless, I now no that I'm not the only person who thinks it looks incongruent, and I still feel that a photo of a native-looking man walking down the street (or in some other situation where the kimono's features are mostly in view) is preferable to a glossy studio shot picture of a gaijin. Jim_Lockhart 00:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

This article really needs a picture of a male in a kimono, and seeing as how its been a couple months and nothing with a Japanese male has been put up maybe you should put up the gaijin male one, or if one of you is Japanese, take a picture of your self dressed up :) Highlandlord 13:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think a gaïjin (or a black man, for instance) would be great! It would help push the idea that a kimono is not some kind of oddly dressed Japanese woman, but a sort of clothing. I would also like to see a formal gathering (wedding or else) with lots of people wearing lots of different kimonos. That'd be neat.--SidiLemine 16:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging Wafuku

Someone created a Wafuku page. I thought it would be better to mention wafuku at Kimono instead, so I made it a redirect. I'd do the merging myself, but I'm not very knowledgable. --KJ 06:40, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, wafuku seems like it just refers to traditional Japanese-style clothing. Perhaps as a result of very little research in the area, I have not come across the term in English, but if an article can be created on the subject that isn't just a copy-paste of this page with the word "kimono" changed to "wafuku", then it should. But I really don't know. elvenscout742 21:44, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but was there other information at Wafuku? Kimono is not the only wafuku, so unless we're going to expand this article to discuss all the types of traditional Japanese clothing (which we shouldn't; this topic is big enough to have its own article, and could probably be expanded a lot further), then really what should happen is that Wafuku should be expanded --- for starters, it could have short sections on all the types of clothing discussed in this article --- with a short section on kimono and a link to this page (as the "main article). Exploding Boy 22:28, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

How odd. I just looked at the history of the Wafuku page, and it appears that the user who started it simply c&pd the Kimono article, changing "kimono" to "wafuku" throughout. The situation gets weirder still; "Traditional Japanese clothing" redirects to Kimono... I suggest that "Traditional Japanese clothing should point either to Wafuku or to a disambiguation page (perhaps List of traditional Japanese clothing), with links to both articles on individual types of clothing. The more I think about it, Wafuku and Japanese clothing should point to Traditional Japanese clothing as well.

...and, holy crap! There already is a list of Japanese clothing, which can be found at Japanese clothing. What a very odd situation. Ok, to begin with I'm going to redirect both Wafuku and Traditional Japanese clothing to Japanese clothing. Exploding Boy 22:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mink stole?

In a lot of pictures of kimono I've seen (in fact, the picture of the little girl on this article has one) there is a short, white mink-stole-looking t hing they wear around the collar. What is that? I've never seen one on a geisha (my area of knowledge). --Iriseyes 01:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What "period of isolation"? And what does "uniquely Japanese" mean?

I removed the reference to Japanese kimono having “uniquely Japanese” aspects since, in addition to being more “Japan as uniquely unique and distinctive” nonsense, it doesn’t make sense. (I would be happy if someone would define it, of course—say, with a Wikilink to an article that explains it, albeit without the usual brown-and-smelly bull-pen floor decorations.) If my adjustments do not express what what meant with this, go ahead and change them.

Similarly, the reference to kimono undergoing modifications during Japan’s isolation does not seem very well thought-out. I assume the writer is referring to Edo-period sakoku, which did not start in earnest until the 1630s, despite earlier decrees, and which did not really (i.e., substantially) bring about a halt in contact with the Asian continent. This presents two problems: the c.450-year gap between the last-cited date (1193) and the effective beginning of sakoku, and further, what—if any-implications sakoku had for the development of kimono. Is the reference to “Japan’s period of isolation” not just a non sequitor here? If it has significance, then I’d like to suggest a Wikilink to a relevant article—one which, upon reading, will give most readers an idea of the implications of “Japan’s period of isolation” on the development of kimono.
Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 07:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)