Talk:Longcase clock

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to rename this article

The proper name of a Grandfather Clock should be a Longcase Clock. I haven't heard the story about the hotel clock before, but the "Grandfather Clock" name does come from the nursary rhyme. JP Godfrey 12:24, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this; the proper name for these is Longcase Clock, and the redirect should be from Grandfather clock to Longcase clock, not the reverse. Evertype 17:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard the term "longcase clock" before and wouldn't be able to imagine what it referred to. Incidentally, the Henry Clay Work song isn't a nursery rhyme; it's too long for that, with several verses and a refrain. Angr (talk • contribs) 19:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard longcase clock either. The only reason everything links here rather than to what is now a redirect (grandfather clock) is because they were changed. It seems that this should have been put up for a requested move if someone wished to change it. --Vedek Dukat ^Talk 20:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The original and proper name for these is nevertheless Longcase Clock, and there is no reason to revert. Evertype 21:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

What is proper is not always the most common name, which is the convention Wikipedia uses... Again, you can put it up for a requested move if you'd like to move it to longcase clock rather than grandfather clock. --Vedek Dukat ^Talk 06:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I object to your moving the article back. The proper name should be used, and the redirect from grandfather clock should suffice. I kind of want to ask, who are you to revert my moving the article? Moving it was being bold and wasn't done precipitously or rashly, or to make anyone angry. It was done for the sake of accuracy, and undone because you hadn't heard the term before. Evertype 09:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It was done because Wikipedia articles are generally under the most commonly used name, not the pedantic one. Until now, there was no mention of grandmother clocks in the move rationale, which I suppose makes sense. The point about using WP:RM was that, when there is disagreement about a name, the move request should go there. --Vedek Dukat ^Talk 20:30, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The term "longcase" predates "grandfather" and is more generic, as all longcase clocks are not grandfathers (there are grandmother clocks which are smaller for instance). The term "longcase clock" is used by horologists, clockmakers, etc. This request folows on from a renaming dispute; someone had proposed it to be moved, I agreed and moved it, then someone else moved it back. The usual story, I suppose. I think that the article should be under the more accurate general name, and that the redirect should be from the later popular name to that. Evertype 09:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support As I have requested. Evertype 09:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support I don't feel very strongly one way or the other but am inclined towards the "correct" longcase rather than the popular grandfather for the following reasons: (1) "longcase" was the term for 200 years before "grandfather" became popular; (2) clock experts generally use "longcase"; (3) having the main article on "longcase" allows both "grandfather clock" and "grandmother clock" to redirect to "longcase clock". Adrian Robson 12:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

(Later, after doing a quick search on Google for "longcase" I found that Encyclopedia Britannica uses "longcase", as does the BBC's Antiques section. That doesn't mean Wikipedia has to slavishly copy them and use "longcase"; it just highlights that the term hasn't fallen out of use.) Adrian Robson 23:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Support, per Adrian Robson's 3rd reason above: in a nutshell, it will simply be easier for users to find what they are really looking for. With that said, my father has worked professionally on antique and new clocks for over a decade (authorized repairman for Howard Miller and Seth Thomas), and he never uses the term "longcase clock" to my knowledge. I am not sure that the second claim above ("clock experts generally use 'longcase'") can be verified. I would say that "longcase" is more useful for our purposes here because it allows us to condense two articles into one that should be sufficient for the needs of both subcategories. I don't think it is our place to decide that an archaic linguistic variant is somehow objectively "correct." That, IMO, would be a violation of NPOV. Dick Clark 15:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
• Weak support per Clark's rationale. --Vedek Dukat ^Talk 20:32, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
• Support The term "grandfather clock" is a colloquialism that came into use after "longcase", as described by Adrian. A few surfs around antique clock shops and you'll find there's something of a consensus that the correct name for a grandfather clock is a longcase clock (or, more specifically, a floor standing longcase clock). As Wikipedia grows not only in volume of content but also a strong reputation for accuracy, I believe we should endeavor to sustain technical correctness, particularly in areas attempting to offer valid definitions. Brendan Kehoe 23:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose: use the common name most readers will know. Thumbelina 17:59, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Rather than try to prove some nebulous linguistic point about the "correct name", it may be preferable to keep the current name and to mention early on something about how "Grandfathers clocks are one of several types of longcase clocks." We could maintain a unified article or have a general longcase article and then a "grandfather" article, "grandmother" article, etc., if there is enough information go around. I have no doubts about there being plenty for "longcase" and "grandfather," but "grandmother" and any others may get short shrift. Dick Clark 18:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I don't think we have enough material for separate articles, and so I still think Longcase clock is the best umbrella for this topic. Evertype 09:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose Antiques Roadshow calls it a "grandfather clock": I call it a "grandfather clock" -- I don't care what any whorologist says[1]. Ewlyahoocom 08:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment That PBS Antiques Roadshow link cites a Pennsylvanian expert "Your mentor, Gordon Converse, an antique clock expert out of Stafford, PA continues. He says that grandfather clocks were called longcase clocks or tall case clocks prior to that mid-19th-century American song." -- so the term hasn't fallen out of use, though there are alternatives, such as the term you prefer. Note too Adrian's citation of the Encyclopaedia Britannica and the BBC's equivalent of the Antique's Roadshow. I remain convinced that Longcase clock should be the article title, and other names, popular or not, should redirect to it as they are instances of longcase clocks. Evertype 09:30, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Use more inclusive term. Otherwise, where would we put stuff about Grandmother clocks? (Oops, looks as if 'What links here' is already set up in favour of the move.) Noisy | Talk 14:10, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.