Talk:Michael Roach

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Contents 1 Archives 2 neutralized the passage on study 3 included Diamnond-Cutter.org link at Michael Roach per discussion we still had and User:HanumanDas' requirements of inlcusion 4 I left a note at the Admins noticeboard and asked them for advice 5 Diamond-cutter.org does contain copyright violations 5.1 The Mediation and its results 6 Suggestion for an amicable settlement on the critical link 7 Ekajati/Ramachandra/Hanuman Das Sockpuppetry Case 8 Warnings needed

[edit] Archives

• /Archive 1
• /Archive 2
• /Archive 3

[edit] neutralized the passage on study

According to a Geshe who was studying in GMR class at Sera, GMR studied all together 5 years - whereas for the lowest Geshe degree 15 years of extensive study are minimum. The degree was passed to him without that he has done any exam. It was a honorary geshe degree he received because he has sponsored Sera so extensively. So using phrases of "extensive study" are not neutral that's why I removed it. Also what a Geshe is, is written in the related article, so I removed the phrase (akin to a Doctorate of Divinity). The article should be grounded not pushed up. kt66

[edit] included Diamnond-Cutter.org link at Michael Roach per discussion we still had and User:HanumanDas' requirements of inlcusion

When we had the discussion about including the critical link mainly User:HanumanDas and user:Ekajati were against it. All other editors were for including or at least not against it. Because User:HanumanDas argued:

I am happy to include a critical link - as long as the publishers of the site have the balls to put their names on it. I can create a site that trashes you in a few moments work (if I knew your identity) - would you want that information then linked to by WP? —Hanuman Das 23:36, 24 September 2006 (UTC) (see archive2)

I now included the link and the responsible person, because the website owner gives his name on the website, see: http://www.diamond-cutter.org/about/about.html Regards, --Kt66 12:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I believe that H.D. meant to say "authors" rather than "publishers". That is, the content is still anonymously authored. These people need to have the guts to put their name on their complaints if they want to be linked to from Wikipedia. The same legal issues apply. The site is still just a bunch of anons talking shit about somebody. Gossip does not deserve to be linked to from WP. There is no way to determine the veracity or reliability of anonymous sources. Ekajati (yakity-yak) 15:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

to make it short, there is one person in charge for the site. What user:HanumanDas's main point was will be a speculation in a way and he stopped his WP activity. The site lists also an official letter by the office of HH the Dalai Lama so you can not say this letter has an anonymous authorship and that the office of the Dalai Lama offers "nons talking shit about somebody" and "Gossip" when stating the obvious things: "We have seen a photograph of you wearing long hair, with a female companion at your side, apparently giving ordination. This would seem to conflict with the rules of Vinaya, and as you know, the Gelug tradition makes a point of upholding these very strictly. This unconventional behavior does not accord with His Holiness's teachings and practice." Is this gossip? From my POV the reasoning you offer now is quite biased and not well reasoned, so I can not accept your removal and will reinclude it. If you disagree either give better reasons or lets ask minimum two or three unbiased Admins. Regards. --Kt66 17:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, the Dalai Lama letter. That brings up a couple of other issues:

1. If the Dalai Lama wished to publicize this letter, he would have it posted at the Office of Tibet website. So link to it there.
2. As you may or may not know, the author of a letter holds the copyright to that letter. I see no evidence that the Dalai Lama gave permission to reprint His less. In fact, the basic fact of who holds the copyright is not even mentioned. Wikipedia policy prohibits linking to sites which violate the copyrights of other.
3. The same goes for letters by Michael Roach republished on the site. Those letters were sent to specific individuals. I see no indication of Michael Roach having given permission to republish the letters. Even if they were or are published on his own web sites, those sites are copyrighted and other sites may not simply republish his letters.

Now there are two reasons not to link to the site: anonymous potentially libelous content AND possible copyright violation issues. The latter is serious, and I will be looking into having the site blacklisted for copyright violations so that it CANNOT be linked to... Ekajati (yakity-yak) 14:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

my feeling is you are not neutral and just misuse rules for avoiding any critical link regarding Michael Roach. I asked two person for their opinion we'll see what their view is. Regards, --Kt66 09:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I left a note at the Admins noticeboard and asked them for advice

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Michael_Roach_.28Buddhist.29

--Kt66 20:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Diamond-cutter.org does contain copyright violations

An anon on the BLP noticeboard denied this, so I checked myself. This is what I found (copied from my response on the noticeboard):

Yes, there are copyvio letters written by Michael Roach and other documents belonging to Roach and/or Diamond Mountain there. They are in PDF format and linked from http://www.diamond-cutter.org/references/documents.html. The copyvios include the links titled

• Letter to Lamas (open does not mean anyone else can publish without permission)
• Diamond Mountain Spin (this one has a copyright notice at the bottom)
• Spiritual Partners Poster (poster image rights belong to Diamond Mountain)
• Yoga of Business Poster (ditto)
• Tantra in America (transcript of a talk, rights belong to Roach)
• Magic of Empty Teachers (another talk, has Diamond Mountain logo on it)

These are all copyright violations. The site has no right to publish any of them. A Ramachandran 05:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

OK it seems no way to include this link. So we have to wait if something is published elsewhere... (maybe in Tricycle: The Buddhist Review) --Kt66 00:47, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I must point out that using work from another source without permission does not in itself constitute a copyright violation.

The use of these materials on this diamond-cutter.org is NOT a copyright violation as it constitutes "Fair Use" as specified by the BERNE CONVENTION FOR THE PROTECTION OF LITERARY AND ARTISTIC WORKS:

US COPYRIGHT LAW defines fair use in this way, in section 107:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Reference from - http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

You are wrong. Fair use does not allow the use of a work as a whole, but only covers the use of quotations in the context of another work. The quotations must generally be less than half the content of the new work making fair use of the quotations. The key word in fair use is use. You are not a lawyer, and you don't know what you're talking about. The site violates copyright and cannot be linked to. If you continue to insert the link, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. A Ramachandran 19:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

A) How do you know I am not a lawyer?

B) Actually YOU are wrong....

The US Gov't Copyright Website states: Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. (From http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html)

NOTE: The use of this quote itself is "Fair Use", so please don't comment it out like you did on my previous post

Maybe Ramachandran it is you who are no a lawyer. I believe that the site may be validly linked to under wikipedia rules.

QUESTION: who has the final say about such matters at Wikipedia? If you continue to remove this link then maybe we'll have to try to have you locked from editing wikipedia.

I would like to formally request that you undertake Mediation on this matter with a 3rd Party, with a view to arbitration if this fails.

Go ahead, take it to mediation. I'm quite confident of the facts and Wikipedia's policy. You'll have to create an account though.... A Ramachandran 01:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with mediation as well. So we can find a proper dealing with it. Thank you both. --Kt66 12:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Mediation and its results

Here is the link to the mediation and the final result: Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Michael Roach --Kt66 23:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion for an amicable settlement on the critical link

Its obvious that Ramachandran and I (and others) disagree on this issue and that we both feel we are correct and both feel we have valid reasons for feeling as such. It would be nice if we can recognise that our perceptions differ on this issue, and that we may both have valid points, or we may both be wrong. This is the nature of beings... to perceive things differently.

So an amicable settlement, which I would like to propose, would be a compromise. Perhaps we can include the link, with a strongly worded disclaimer that the link is to a site that may contain controversial materials. We could work on the wording of this together.

Otherwise I (or others) will just keep adding the link daily and Ramachandran will keep removing it, untill we all get banned from WikiPedia for being such a bunch of wallies (yeh thick baat nahin hoga, Ramachandran Bhai... Maaf kijiye mera yaar, lekin mujhe Tamil atta nahin hain).

In any case, its a waste of everyones valuable time, so if we can both be big about this, agree to dissagree, and come to a compromise then we'll all have grown a little and we'll all be better off (Shayad is mamla se hum dono acchi dosti ban jayegi).

Best wishes to all

Diamondwatcher 16:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I will be happy to engage in mediation. But I will withdraw from mediation unless the link is left out during mediation. If the link violates WP:BLP it must be left out. Similarly if the link violates copyright it must be left out. Since either case could make Wikipedia vulnerable to legal action, it is not fair to Wikipedia to keep the link in the article until it is reviewed and approved by someone with authority to do so. A Ramachandran 17:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

So, Ramachandra Bhai, you will admit that you are doing this for the sake of Wikipedia, rather than your personal devotion to Geshe Michael Roach (I have read your posts of Chatrooms regarding Geshe Michael Roach and it's quite obvious that your his student in some way. So if your doing it for the sake of Wikipedia, and there is a consensus that there is no problem linking to this site, then you'll accept that.. No?) Diamondwatcher 23:29, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely. I have no connection whatsoever with Geshe Roach. However, I'm pretty certain that policy will not allow linking to the site, for multiple reasons. You must be mistaking me for someone else. Not only have I not posted in chatrooms related to the topic, I don't post in chatrooms at all, of any sort. A Ramachandran 04:54, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Would it be possible to compromise on this point by linking to one or two specific articles on that site that all parties can agree are reasonably verifiable and not copyright violations, rather than linking to the website's main page?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion to such a compromise. --Kt66 12:45, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not agree. And I'd like to remind editors that there is a formal mediation going on and that that is the place to discuss this. See the template at the top of the page. If you have an interest in the matter, you should add your name to the mediation and let the mediator know that you are joining the mediation. A Ramachandran 15:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ekajati/Ramachandra/Hanuman Das Sockpuppetry Case

The latest information on the sockpuppetry of the non-collaborative "trio" above, really one user, who've been active on this article, and taking similiar inflexible positions regarding critical material on similar articles:

User:Ekajati Suspected sockpuppeteer Ekajati (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)

Suspected sockpuppets Chai Walla (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log) Baba Louis (talk • contribs • page moves • block user • block log)

Report submission by --Pigmantalk • contribs 01:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Evidence Ekajati (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) is under a two month ban for sockpuppetry. Currently confirmed sockpuppets of Ekajati are Hanuman Das (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log), A Ramachandran (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log), and Tunnels of Set (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log). Hanuman Das changed his account name and was previously under the user name Adityanath (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log). While still under the Adityanath account, two accounts were found to be sockpuppets of the Adityanath account: Baba Louis (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) and Chai Walla (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log). See here for findings.

Since Hanuman Das is a sockpuppet of Ekajati, then accounts found to be sockpuppets of Hanuman Das are therefore socks of Ekajati.

As of 1/29/2007, Chai Walla is working on Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath [1]. This means Ekajati is using this sock to evade the ban.

Above advisory posted by --Dseer 03:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this really the case or mere a joke? Why does no WP:Administrator publish this Sockpuppetry Case? From where did you receive this information and is this accuse of sockpuppetry based on facts and reliable? Is there an Admin who can confirm this Sockpuppetry Case?

If all three persons - who worked so hard to ban the critical link - are the same person than we put in the link right now, because all three of them would have just misused the Wp rules for banning the critical link. Besides them nobody else agreed to ban the critical link. --Kt66 21:08, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Kt66, please see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Ekajati.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 21:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Astonished I can only say in German: Das ist der Hammer! Ok, no need to block the link any more. --Kt66 21:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ekajati/Hanuman Das/A Ramachandran and probably other "socks" were active all over Wikipedia, agreeing with each "other", and trying to block critical links against many controversial spiritual teachers using threats and intimidation, like you've seen here. Since the issue is simply adding the link to experts on the critical POV relative to a subject to confirm that there is a controversy, not to endorse the controversial material or cite it in the article, Ekajati's position was too extreme and biased against NPOV. In the Andrew Cohen article, Ekajati threatened other other editors with banning if they restored a critical link he deleted, and also reported them to the BLP noticeboard. The difference there was that some of us editors recognized his approach from several articles and were not intimidated by his psuedo-legalisms, non-collaboration and threats, pointed out both in discussion and at the BLP noticeboard in wikipedian logic why he was wrong, biased, and was threatening other editors, and restored the link over his objections, and so called his bluff. Having taken mediation training, I assure you that you can't mediate with someone like that with a devious agenda, sometimes you have to be bold and trust yourself when a review of contributions shows a non-collaborative agenda, and contest them wherever they take their argument. While you have to be cautious, the fact is such critical links are quite normal, I can think of a dozen regarding different figures, and none of them have been shut down by legal action, despite the claims of our sockpuppets, and I can prove if it comes to that. Besides the logic I used in the mediation case, which among other things points out that the leader has refused to try and refute the charges on that site despite offers to do so, there is the simple fact that history with NRMs shows that usually these ex-followers have more evidence than they disclose, and if they were forced to testify under oath to defend against a lawsuit, the NRM might well come out much worse. Since Ekajati has been active in trying to circumvent bans and creating sockpuppets to support his agenda, although all known sockpuppets have been blocked, he may try to sneak back, so all those interested in the Wikipedian logic by which Ekajati's assertions were rebutted in the Cohen article should read here: [[1]], and here: [[2]]. And here is the mediator's favorable comments on the same logical position at the Ken Wilber article: [[3]]. Now that the biased deletionist and sockpuppet master is gone, here's to an NPOV article! --Dseer 05:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your effort and contributions! --Kt66 11:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Warnings needed

On the original article page there is not even a mention that the article is controversial. There should be one.

The letter from HH The Dalai Lama advising Geshe Michael Roach to stay away from Dharamsala is a fact, not an invention and should be posted here.

Fact: Michael Roach announces himself as a geshe monk. Fact: He says Christie is his girfriend/consort. Fact: He wears watches/jewels and long hair.

All these above contradict the vinaya rules for monks (fact) so he's at fault. This is not speculation so it should be stated on the page.

All over the world, buddhists are very concerned by the behavior of this person. This should be on wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.230.227.73 (talk) 23:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

Only what is mentioned in a Wikipedia:Reliable Source and what is a Wikipedia:Secondary source can be added. Maybe we have to wait until Tricycle will publish this case. --Kt66 23:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Is this link [4] of any help? It is of interest to note that both Diamond Mountain as well as diamond-cutter.org provide links to Lam Rim Radio [5] [6]. -- Knverma 15:20, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, I think not. A personal statement is not the basis for verifying a controversy... --Kt66 21:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I already agreed with that part, that the accusations cannot be claimed to be true. But facts like "his teachings have been removed from lamrim.com" could be claimed to be true. But then perhaps it is not so significant, and it might be better to wait before even mentioning all this in the article. -- Knverma 00:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

this is the point: the removal of his teachings from a website is not that relevant... --Kt66 20:50, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The relevant thing is that this is not a teacher without serious controversy by many groups including HH The Dalai Lama office, and this should be stated very clear in the wikipedia page. The letters should be published in wikipedia since they're open. The 'accussations' are not gossip but based on facts, please read again the 4 facts, they're not subjective but objective. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.230.227.73 (talk) 20:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC).